Jagged Alliance 3 from Haemimont Games

[Togukawa]

Metal gear solid 2 had an awesome reactivity to hit locations. Shot in main arm => can't shoot for shit anymore. Shot in leg => only limping. Shot in both legs => prone.
It's a great way to increase immersion, add impact to weapon hits and keep the lethality of combat. I wish more games used similar systems.

Actually aiming for body parts gameplay over realism I suppose. I guess in reality nothing trumps the increased chance to hit of aiming for center mass.

 

[jac8awol]

Everything about this project just pisses me off including the studio name which reminds me of that jewish name Hymie, or hymen, or other dumb shit.

 

[Papill0n]

Metal gear solid 2 had an awesome reactivity to hit locations. Shot in main arm => can't shoot for shit anymore. Shot in leg => only limping. Shot in both legs => prone.
It's a great way to increase immersion, add impact to weapon hits and keep the lethality of combat. I wish more games used similar systems.

Actually aiming for body parts gameplay over realism I suppose. I guess in reality nothing trumps the increased chance to hit of aiming for center mass.

If the impact of a hit in specific body parts is only stat loss (like in Ja2) than it makes little sense to actually aim for very specific body parts. Because we go on to kill that enemy anyway, whether or not he lses 5 points in aglity or not. Conversely, our characters permanently or temporarily losing 1 or 2 points in agility or whatnot is just a silly annoyance adding very little to the game.

I even think aiming for the legs in Ja2 was rarely a good option. If you hit, and the enemy fell down (which wasn't granted) then the follow up shot s against these downed enemies were harder to hit than follow up shots against a standing enemy, where you could aim for the head. So often time, chest or head were the only real options.

Assuming hits in very specific body parts have more interesting effects (like disabling the enemy from moving or shooting or forcing him to drop heavy gear or whatever) then that could be a nice option. Maybe a bit of a filter could be applied that such aiming would only be allowed if the enemy was reasonably close to the shooter and not moving or only moving slowly. That way, it would be disabled as a choice in situations where it's really ipossble to the point of being nonsensical. Bullets may still hit specific parts of the body by chance, though

 

[Nutria]

I don't aim for specific body parts that often, but I still think having different locations adds to the game. It comes up a lot of situations, like when someone is behind partial cover and only part of their body is exposed, when you're shooting from a strange angle (like down from a rooftop), or even when you miss and end up hitting some bystander in the toe.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

It's weird but when this was announced I was somewhat unimpressed with the initial showing but still hopeful.

Months later, the more I rewatch the trailer the more pessimistic I get about it.

 

[Humbaba]

I don't aim for specific body parts that often, but I still think having different locations adds to the game. It comes up a lot of situations, like when someone is behind partial cover and only part of their body is exposed, when you're shooting from a strange angle (like down from a rooftop), or even when you miss and end up hitting some bystander in the toe.

But that would only relevant in a game with actual JA2 style hit detection instead of the nu-XCOM style where a hit is just a hit. Stat loss from aimed hits is actually quite rare in my experience, so that's not even the defining feature here. Generally, unless you got a scope or are really close then you should always go for body shots anyway. When you interrupt an enemy while he is running, shooting him in the legs is often worth it because he is likely to fall over and end his action but idk if there's gonna be interrupts in JA3.

 

[Maxwell's Demon]

This just reminded me that I haven't played Jagged Alliance 2, and I probably should.

 

[RNGsus]

This just reminded me that I haven't played Jagged Alliance 2, and I probably should.

Why, because Codex said? Just play Silent Storm.

 

[Maxwell's Demon]

Why, because Codex said? Just play Silent Storm.

Silent Storm is on my list too. Besides, Jagged Alliance 2 cost me less than today's lunch.

 

[RNGsus]

At least you'll be playing the funner one of the two.

 

[80s Stallone]

So nothing new for months... I guess it's crap.

 

[cretin]

This just reminded me that I haven't played Jagged Alliance 2, and I probably should.

Why, because Codex said? Just play Silent Storm.

Silent storm has no strategic layer, it's rpg elements might as well be not there, the maps are significantly smaller and less interesting, the tactical layer - aside from the gimmick of destructible buildings and grenades actually being useful in cqb - has less depth and variety of tactics than ja2. For example there's no multiple squad actions in SS, there's no mortars, there's no smoke grenades, and so on.

SS is also a chore to play, with a cluttered UI and extremely long enemy turns that usually require a speed hack if you don't want to blow your brains out by the later game.

Frankly SS feels like a mobile game in comparison and the only reason it's held in such high regard is because this genre has barely anything else worth playing.

 

[Mary Sue Leigh]

Pros:
- Apparently not made by the same idiots who made JA Back in Action and JA Once More with Feeling (or whatever it was called)
- Seems to not be using "2 AP" system, the biggest and most prolific cancer that came from nuXcom

Cons:
-Everything else

 

[Thal]

This just reminded me that I haven't played Jagged Alliance 2, and I probably should.

Why, because Codex said? Just play Silent Storm.

Silent storm has no strategic layer, it's rpg elements might as well be not there, the maps are significantly smaller and less interesting, the tactical layer - aside from the gimmick of destructible buildings and grenades actually being useful in cqb - has less depth and variety of tactics than ja2. For example there's no multiple squad actions in SS, there's no mortars, there's no smoke grenades, and so on.

SS is also a chore to play, with a cluttered UI and extremely long enemy turns that usually require a speed hack if you don't want to blow your brains out by the later game.

Frankly SS feels like a mobile game in comparison and the only reason it's held in such high regard is because this genre has barely anything else worth playing.

Silent Storm's destructive environment is not a gimmick. It represented a revolutionary improvement to the similar mechanics of UFO and JA2, and should have set the standard for future games with tactical combat. The system appears to be a gimmick only because it's still the best of its kind is by far.

 

[Ninjerk]

Metal gear solid 2 had an awesome reactivity to hit locations. Shot in main arm => can't shoot for shit anymore. Shot in leg => only limping. Shot in both legs => prone.
It's a great way to increase immersion, add impact to weapon hits and keep the lethality of combat. I wish more games used similar systems.

Actually aiming for body parts gameplay over realism I suppose. I guess in reality nothing trumps the increased chance to hit of aiming for center mass.

If the impact of a hit in specific body parts is only stat loss (like in Ja2) than it makes little sense to actually aim for very specific body parts. Because we go on to kill that enemy anyway, whether or not he lses 5 points in aglity or not. Conversely, our characters permanently or temporarily losing 1 or 2 points in agility or whatnot is just a silly annoyance adding very little to the game.

I even think aiming for the legs in Ja2 was rarely a good option. If you hit, and the enemy fell down (which wasn't granted) then the follow up shot s against these downed enemies were harder to hit than follow up shots against a standing enemy, where you could aim for the head. So often time, chest or head were the only real options.

Assuming hits in very specific body parts have more interesting effects (like disabling the enemy from moving or shooting or forcing him to drop heavy gear or whatever) then that could be a nice option. Maybe a bit of a filter could be applied that such aiming would only be allowed if the enemy was reasonably close to the shooter and not moving or only moving slowly. That way, it would be disabled as a choice in situations where it's really ipossble to the point of being nonsensical. Bullets may still hit specific parts of the body by chance, though

I know this comment is getting old now, but I very much agree with the premise that shooting body parts doesn't matter much if the objective the game recognizes is death and not much else.

For anything else to be a desirable option to aim at (not just to hit, I don't disagree that "winging" someone when you miss, e.g. head or chest, is a good mechanic), you'd need to have the game recognize some other objective. Perhaps you need to only disarm someone because you want to recruit them a la Tactics Ogre, or you're a police force trying to minimize casualties so you don't have a riot on your hands, etc. Perhaps there are psychological effects on other enemies if your sniper shoots a leg out from under a guy and he lies out in the open bleeding and screaming for his mother.

 

[Mary Sue Leigh]

It's game balancey stuff I guess. Even if hit in the thigh, bleeding to death will be very swift unless I slap on a tourniquet immediately.
I've seen a 50 cal sniper bullet once and the sniper guy assured me that with this, it wouldn't matter where the target was hit, they wouldn't survive.
Maybe he was just trying to impress me, but the projectile did look big enough to tear limbs right off and would apparently mostly be used against lightly armored vehicles.

A reason to aim at anything other than center mass exists however, if you only have small caliber arms and face an enemy with a ballistic vest. 9mm can probably still wind them, but less reliably unless you're somewhat close. Plus in a game the bullet would probably just be stopped completely, no further effects. Did JA2 have detailed armor mechanics with hit zones taken into account? I'm thinking yes but I honestly can't remember.

 

[Ninjerk]

It's game balancey stuff I guess. Even if hit in the thigh, bleeding to death will be very swift unless I slap on a tourniquet immediately.
I've seen a 50 cal sniper bullet once and the sniper guy assured me that with this, it wouldn't matter where the target was hit, they wouldn't survive.
Maybe he was just trying to impress me, but the projectile did look big enough to tear limbs right off and would apparently mostly be used against lightly armored vehicles.

A reason to aim at anything other than center mass exists however, if you only have small caliber arms and face an enemy with a ballistic vest. 9mm can probably still wind them, but less reliably unless you're somewhat close. Plus in a game the bullet would probably just be stopped completely, no further effects. Did JA2 have detailed armor mechanics with hit zones taken into account? I'm thinking yes but I honestly can't remember.

Whatever part of the body you hovered the attack cursor over is the one you would hit and the hit chance would be displayed dynamically, if memory serves. They could be injured by bleeding, but I don't think there was much more of a detailed damage model (e.g. specific organs damaged, bones broken).

I'd be curious to see how many police or military forces train to shoot to kill by aiming at extremities (not sure if head is considered an extremity) with small caliber arms at significant ranges (without taking into account small, high velocity rifles--I assume you meant pistols, PDWs, SMGs, and the like).

 

[Beowulf]

Body parts differentiation exists mainly for incurring different ailments and debuffs for player character. In this way it works better than including some RNG effects on hits. I guess it has been implemented as a separate mechanic to enable aiming at those vaious body parts because different aim location were already in place, so why not enable it.

 

[Mary Sue Leigh]

With pistol and PDW, probably none. They're very much "close range" and anything further is not something anyone would want to rely on. Might be an option only out of desperation, but if memory serves in JA2 most mercs only start with a handgun unless you shell out for extra equipment so you might need to use them at longer ranges (and miss constantly). Pretty sure at least the selfmade merc usually just has at best, an MP5k or something.

I'm just annoyed how in those games you might aim at an extremity and when you miss, always miss completely, it's not possibly to accidentally hit anything ELSE.
I guess Fallout was the main offender here where you could aim for "eyes" (or was that another game) but even a near miss would be a complete miss, you wouldn't hit the head or upper torso instead, ever.
For this reason alone, I'd never really target anything but whatever had the best chance to hit.

 

[Ninjerk]

With pistol and PDW, probably none. They're very much "close range" and anything further is not something anyone would want to rely on. Might be an option only out of desperation, but if memory serves in JA2 most mercs only start with a handgun unless you shell out for extra equipment so you might need to use them at longer ranges (and miss constantly). Pretty sure at least the selfmade merc usually just has at best, an MP5k or something.

I'm just annoyed how in those games you might aim at an extremity and when you miss, always miss completely, it's not possibly to accidentally hit anything ELSE.
I guess Fallout was the main offender here where you could aim for "eyes" (or was that another game) but even a near miss would be a complete miss, you wouldn't hit the head or upper torso instead, ever.
For this reason alone, I'd never really target anything but whatever had the best chance to hit.

I think in JA2 you can miss what you're aiming at and hit other body parts, but it's been years since I've played so I can't say 100% that it's possible.

 

[Mary Sue Leigh]

Oh I think you're right actually, I distinctly remember now sometimes doing burst fire at close ranges, getting body and head hits in the same burst.

 

[vota DC]

With pistol and PDW, probably none. They're very much "close range" and anything further is not something anyone would want to rely on. Might be an option only out of desperation, but if memory serves in JA2 most mercs only start with a handgun unless you shell out for extra equipment so you might need to use them at longer ranges (and miss constantly). Pretty sure at least the selfmade merc usually just has at best, an MP5k or something.

I'm just annoyed how in those games you might aim at an extremity and when you miss, always miss completely, it's not possibly to accidentally hit anything ELSE.
I guess Fallout was the main offender here where you could aim for "eyes" (or was that another game) but even a near miss would be a complete miss, you wouldn't hit the head or upper torso instead, ever.
For this reason alone, I'd never really target anything but whatever had the best chance to hit.

I think in JA2 you can miss what you're aiming at and hit other body parts, but it's been years since I've played so I can't say 100% that it's possible.

It happens in ja1 too to hit body parts that apply a debuff, in JA2 you have the option to aim where you prefer and raise that chance but It Is still random.

 

[Papill0n]

This just reminded me that I haven't played Jagged Alliance 2, and I probably should.

Why, because Codex said? Just play Silent Storm.

Silent storm has no strategic layer, it's rpg elements might as well be not there, the maps are significantly smaller and less interesting, the tactical layer - aside from the gimmick of destructible buildings and grenades actually being useful in cqb - has less depth and variety of tactics than ja2. For example there's no multiple squad actions in SS, there's no mortars, there's no smoke grenades, and so on.

SS is also a chore to play, with a cluttered UI and extremely long enemy turns that usually require a speed hack if you don't want to blow your brains out by the later game.

Frankly SS feels like a mobile game in comparison and the only reason it's held in such high regard is because this genre has barely anything else worth playing.

Silent Storm's destructive environment is not a gimmick. It represented a revolutionary improvement to the similar mechanics of UFO and JA2, and should have set the standard for future games with tactical combat. The system appears to be a gimmick only because it's still the best of its kind is by far.

The destructible "environment" in Silent Storm appears to oszillate somewhere between unique point of sale and gimmick. The good news is I guess you can say that in more recent revisons of Ja2 1.13 we can destroy all types of objects with gunfire as well. And yes I say it and I do use it in my recent mods (namey in DSM and KSM, see here https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/my-recent-jagged-alliance-2-mods.141294/ )

It should also be well noted that it is not Ja2's tile engine that did not allow it in Vanilla Ja2, but the bullet impact mechanic. Ja2's tilesets have many entries for damaged tiles, but they can, in vanilla, only be triggered by explosions rather than gunfire. If we are to believe the mythbusters, than that's also more realistic than sawing entire buildings apart with guns. But for me, fun goes first, then realism so I had to have in my more recent mods.

 

[Nutria]

What I like in Silent Storm is not so much that you can destroy the environment but just that you can shoot through walls, depending on what weapon you're using and what kind of wall it is. So hiding in a flimsy wooden house isn't going to save you if I've got an LMG and I can guess where you are.

 

[Papill0n]

Yeah, that's pretty cool. You can do that in Vanilla Ja2 only because of a bug with bamboo hut's armor rating :D Which of course could be replicated if anybody wanted that mechanic to be replicated for other buildings. The engine allows this, it's only a question of the values used for particular objects.