Eternity Josh Sawyer reflects on his failures with Pillars of Eternity

[the mole]

I said earlier that you can build an RPG around failure but not futility, and I maintain that the latter is fundamentally at odds with the genre, moreso than with videogames in general, since RPGs essentially revolve around developing and overcoming.

I honestly think you could make an RPG about futility that doesn't suck, but it requires a lot of work and talent to pull it off (i.e. Obsidian would not stand the remotest chance of pulling it off).

It may also require the purely Aryan outlook of struggle for the sake of struggle being good, which modern soymen lack

Imagine a game where you're fighting against a foe you know you can't beat, but you still keep fighting because it's better than giving in even though you know the outcome won't change - you're all gonna get wiped out by the enemy either way.
The game's narrative could carry vibes of heroic sacrifice and a life-affirming attitude of never giving in, no matter the odds. NPCs and companions can range from those who accept their fate but keep fighting due to a sense of duty, to those who are of low morale and want to give in, to those who carry a flame of hope that only gets extinguished when they die. Quests can involve delaying the inevitable and/or increasing your odds by sabotaging the enemy wherever you can, trying to find ways to save at least some of your people and their culture by funneling them to escape tunnels or acquiring ships to send them across the sea, etc.
And it would culminate in an epic end fight where you defend your city against an infinite, unbeatable horde of enemies, and your success is measured by your defiance.

I would fucking love to play that.

But there's no way a nihilist would be able to pull it off.

fighting a god wasn't enough for you

boomer standards

fighting a man who resurrects with all his memories intact for thousands of years and who is backed by a god woedica and can possess other people's bodies at a moments notice and discard them isn't enough for a boomer

he needs the villain to be more powerful

you cannot please some people

like children they can't handle novelty

 

[luj1]

Nothing was ever cool or original in Pillars lore except that bomb.

 

[the mole]

Nothing was ever cool or original in Pillars lore except that bomb.

according to who

the dispossessed perpetually asshurt old gamer crowd

 

[luj1]

according to who

 

[Chippy]

A video game that turned six this year and that consistently elicits butthurt responses from the hivemind to this day. Has another title ever hit as much of a nerve as this one?

Sawyer was a false prophet. People are understandably resentful. He didn't merely fail to deliver. His opus of mediocrity nearly aborted what was supposed to be a renaissance. I'm just about to finish my first playthrough of Siege of Dragonspear. Without question, it has been vastly more enjoyable than PoE was. How sad is that?

Almost as sad as being a gold backer for it. And then only playing for for a few hours when it came out.

If POE was as good as Kingmaker, I would have considered it money well spent. The whole POE experience was a lot like the Elvis fanbase (bear with me). You see the Elvis fanbase has a lot of retards in it. There's a connection between Elvis and retards. There just is. So certain people (like my boomer family) were lucky enough to see Elvis live. They said it was like being in the centre of a hurricane. Now imagine years later, boomers found out Elvis was still alive and living as a hobo, so they crowdfunded him, got him back on stage, and then found out he had lost his voice.

But going back to the retards...these are the millenials that have listened to a few Elvis CDs and it touches them in a special place. And now they're lecturing the boomers on what the authentic, live, Elvis experience is.

And the reason I went from boomer > millenial is because anyone who considers POE to be something of substance and talent to sit up there with the greatest RPGs...well, there's just too much of a distance between that thinking and taste for it to be considered authentic.

 

[the mole]

notice the idiots have no argument I've perfectly identified what they are

 

[karoliner]

Why are you wasting time defending mediocrity?

 

[the mole]

Why are you wasting time defending mediocrity?

according to?

it is by far the best rtwp rpg of this style released in recent memory

it isn't even close

the competitors in its class are flat out broken as video games

pillars of eternity 1 and 2 are not only functioning games but also pretty well done

every argument comes from tired old men who can't get it up anymore for gaming, it doesn't "feel" good to play, it isn't "fun"

 

[Semper]

I don’t think Pillars was bad it simply wasn’t what most of us wanted... and when you decide to make yet another game like it and people don’t buy it you blame your “fan base” for not wanting to give you their money?

cut the man some slack. he repeatedly said that he couldn't give the audience what they wanted, and that he's not really willing to helm the production of a potential sequel.

I’m sure some of the people reading this think they know precisely why Deadfire sold worse than Pillars 1. I don’t have that confidence, which is one of several reasons why I am leery about trying to direct a sequel. I couldn’t give our (Obsidian’s) audience the game that they wanted and without understanding where I went wrong, I would be guessing at what the problems are and how to remedy them.

 

[JarlFrank]

I said earlier that you can build an RPG around failure but not futility, and I maintain that the latter is fundamentally at odds with the genre, moreso than with videogames in general, since RPGs essentially revolve around developing and overcoming.

I honestly think you could make an RPG about futility that doesn't suck, but it requires a lot of work and talent to pull it off (i.e. Obsidian would not stand the remotest chance of pulling it off).

It may also require the purely Aryan outlook of struggle for the sake of struggle being good, which modern soymen lack

Imagine a game where you're fighting against a foe you know you can't beat, but you still keep fighting because it's better than giving in even though you know the outcome won't change - you're all gonna get wiped out by the enemy either way.
The game's narrative could carry vibes of heroic sacrifice and a life-affirming attitude of never giving in, no matter the odds. NPCs and companions can range from those who accept their fate but keep fighting due to a sense of duty, to those who are of low morale and want to give in, to those who carry a flame of hope that only gets extinguished when they die. Quests can involve delaying the inevitable and/or increasing your odds by sabotaging the enemy wherever you can, trying to find ways to save at least some of your people and their culture by funneling them to escape tunnels or acquiring ships to send them across the sea, etc.
And it would culminate in an epic end fight where you defend your city against an infinite, unbeatable horde of enemies, and your success is measured by your defiance.

I would fucking love to play that.

But there's no way a nihilist would be able to pull it off.

fighting a god wasn't enough for you

boomer standards

fighting a man who resurrects with all his memories intact for thousands of years and who is backed by a god woedica and can possess other people's bodies at a moments notice and discard them isn't enough for a boomer

he needs the villain to be more powerful

you cannot please some people

like children they can't handle novelty

Where the fuck did I say more powerful? The villain in the game idea I described would merely be a powerful warlord with huge armies, not some kind of god.
Low fantasy > high fantasy.

In fact, once you give the villain too many god powers it becomes boring, because it usually means you as the player have to also become godlike. It's power creep. Keep everything at a reasonable level instead and have someone like Gandalf be the peak of power.

 

[Gargaune]

fighting a god wasn't enough for you

Did you, um... play Deadfire?

he needs the villain to be more powerful

Not what we were talking about.

 

[the mole]

fighting a god wasn't enough for you

Did you, um... play Deadfire?

he needs the villain to be more powerful

Not what we were talking about.

the fighting a god comment referring to thaos, because come on it's the same thing basically

 

[AwesomeButton]

What the fuck is going on, and why do I care?

This is legitimately a problem for someone who hasn't played PoE, although it's a common problem for RPGs. Also, the game makes the assumption the player will read the text more or less carefully.

Group size of five instead of six. Why? Why did they fucking do this? It's terrible.

There is a mod for that. On the plus side, the party of five needs less management. I'm curious if a party of 6 and a reduced XP gain will be the perfect configuration for a PotD/Upscale all playthrough, though combat will definetly be a slog this way.

And if that weren't bad enough, rounds recovery times scale in the tenths of a second.

Yeah this feels incredibly dumb in RtwP, but makes a lot more sense in TB. Sawyer did indeed want to make a classless TB game.

Sawyer was a false prophet. People are understandably resentful. He didn't merely fail to deliver. His opus of mediocrity nearly aborted what was supposed to be a renaissance. I'm just about to finish my first playthrough of Siege of Dragonspear. Without question, it has been vastly more enjoyable than PoE was. How sad is that?

Isn't it awfully linear though?

 

[Desiderius]

I said earlier that you can build an RPG around failure but not futility, and I maintain that the latter is fundamentally at odds with the genre, moreso than with videogames in general, since RPGs essentially revolve around developing and overcoming.

I honestly think you could make an RPG about futility that doesn't suck, but it requires a lot of work and talent to pull it off (i.e. Obsidian would not stand the remotest chance of pulling it off).

It may also require the purely Aryan outlook of struggle for the sake of struggle being good, which modern soymen lack

Imagine a game where you're fighting against a foe you know you can't beat, but you still keep fighting because it's better than giving in even though you know the outcome won't change - you're all gonna get wiped out by the enemy either way.
The game's narrative could carry vibes of heroic sacrifice and a life-affirming attitude of never giving in, no matter the odds. NPCs and companions can range from those who accept their fate but keep fighting due to a sense of duty, to those who are of low morale and want to give in, to those who carry a flame of hope that only gets extinguished when they die. Quests can involve delaying the inevitable and/or increasing your odds by sabotaging the enemy wherever you can, trying to find ways to save at least some of your people and their culture by funneling them to escape tunnels or acquiring ships to send them across the sea, etc.
And it would culminate in an epic end fight where you defend your city against an infinite, unbeatable horde of enemies, and your success is measured by your defiance.

I would fucking love to play that.

But there's no way a nihilist would be able to pull it off.

fighting a god wasn't enough for you

boomer standards

fighting a man who resurrects with all his memories intact for thousands of years and who is backed by a god woedica and can possess other people's bodies at a moments notice and discard them isn't enough for a boomer

he needs the villain to be more powerful

you cannot please some people

like children they can't handle novelty

You’re several hundred years late and 20 pieces of silver short if any of that garbage is novel to you. Same old same old.

For people who complain about the Boomers so much y’all sure do reproduce their tendency to all try to be edgelords on exactly the same edge and exactly the same side.

It’s a wonder there’s enough room there for the both of you. No wonder you hate each other.

 

[the mole]

I said earlier that you can build an RPG around failure but not futility, and I maintain that the latter is fundamentally at odds with the genre, moreso than with videogames in general, since RPGs essentially revolve around developing and overcoming.

I honestly think you could make an RPG about futility that doesn't suck, but it requires a lot of work and talent to pull it off (i.e. Obsidian would not stand the remotest chance of pulling it off).

It may also require the purely Aryan outlook of struggle for the sake of struggle being good, which modern soymen lack

Imagine a game where you're fighting against a foe you know you can't beat, but you still keep fighting because it's better than giving in even though you know the outcome won't change - you're all gonna get wiped out by the enemy either way.
The game's narrative could carry vibes of heroic sacrifice and a life-affirming attitude of never giving in, no matter the odds. NPCs and companions can range from those who accept their fate but keep fighting due to a sense of duty, to those who are of low morale and want to give in, to those who carry a flame of hope that only gets extinguished when they die. Quests can involve delaying the inevitable and/or increasing your odds by sabotaging the enemy wherever you can, trying to find ways to save at least some of your people and their culture by funneling them to escape tunnels or acquiring ships to send them across the sea, etc.
And it would culminate in an epic end fight where you defend your city against an infinite, unbeatable horde of enemies, and your success is measured by your defiance.

I would fucking love to play that.

But there's no way a nihilist would be able to pull it off.

fighting a god wasn't enough for you

boomer standards

fighting a man who resurrects with all his memories intact for thousands of years and who is backed by a god woedica and can possess other people's bodies at a moments notice and discard them isn't enough for a boomer

he needs the villain to be more powerful

you cannot please some people

like children they can't handle novelty

You’re several hundred years late and 20 pieces of silver short if any of that garbage is novel to you. Same old same old.

For people who complain about the Boomers so much y’all sure do reproduce their tendency to all try to be edgelords on exactly the same edge and exactly the same side.

It’s a wonder there’s enough room there for the both of you. No wonder you hate each other.

every boomer is saying new game shit, with entirely subjective reasons

but I never said old game shit

poe isn't a failed game, blame the brain chemistry of gen x which is so destroyed by anti depressants and beta blockers

 

[Desiderius]

I don’t think Pillars was bad it simply wasn’t what most of us wanted... and when you decide to make yet another game like it and people don’t buy it you blame your “fan base” for not wanting to give you their money?

cut the man some slack. he repeatedly said that he couldn't give the audience what they wanted, and that he's not really willing to helm the production of a potential sequel.

I’m sure some of the people reading this think they know precisely why Deadfire sold worse than Pillars 1. I don’t have that confidence, which is one of several reasons why I am leery about trying to direct a sequel. I couldn’t give our (Obsidian’s) audience the game that they wanted and without understanding where I went wrong, I would be guessing at what the problems are and how to remedy them.

Couldnt or wouldn’t? Once life finishes knocking him off that high horse he’ll finally be ready to produce a game worthy of all that talent.

 

[Desiderius]

Boomers aren’t gamers dumbass - they’re off doing fantasy football or golf leagues or some shit.

Xers had enough experience pre-adderall/SSRI or whatever to feel the difference and back off in time to find healthier alternatives.

In any case far from not being able to get it up game wise it feels like I’m swimming in pussy these days. More games I want to play than time to play them.

It’s just that PoE’s like the chick with the fake tits who ends up being kind of a dead fish. She does have a decent enough personality so you sort of feel bad about ghosting her.

 

[Gargaune]

the fighting a god comment referring to thaos, because come on it's the same thing basically

I was explicitly talking about Deadfire in the post JarlFrank replied to, my argument on "futility" doesn't extend to the original PoE. The first game's main narrative, even with its pacing issues, is a much more competent RPG plot than Deadfire's.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Why are you wasting time defending mediocrity?

according to?

it is by far the best rtwp rpg of this style released in recent memory

it isn't even close

COVID-19 is by far the best virus of this style released in recent memory. It isn't even close.

 

[the mole]

Why are you wasting time defending mediocrity?

according to?

it is by far the best rtwp rpg of this style released in recent memory

it isn't even close

COVID-19 is by far the best virus of this style released in recent memory. It isn't even close.

if only that made sense

 

[Gargaune]

Yeah this feels incredibly dumb in RtwP, but makes a lot more sense in TB. Sawyer did indeed want to make a classless TB game.

Out of curiosity, being the RTwP whore that I am, how would it work better in TB? If anything, I'd have imagined the opposite seeing as combat rounds are no longer unified.

Isn't it awfully linear though?

It is, but I gotta agree with him there, I also enjoyed SoD more than I did PoE. Not that I hated the latter, but I felt like the pacing was off, its best material was genuinely interesting but it was all concentrated right at the end of the campaign. And systems-wise, SoD is IE BG and PoE isn't.

 

[fork]

Why are you wasting time defending mediocrity?

according to?

it is by far the best rtwp rpg of this style released in recent memory

it isn't even close

COVID-19 is by far the best virus of this style released in recent memory. It isn't even close.

if only that made sense

It's not his fault that you're a bit dumb.

 

[the mole]

Why are you wasting time defending mediocrity?

according to?

it is by far the best rtwp rpg of this style released in recent memory

it isn't even close

COVID-19 is by far the best virus of this style released in recent memory. It isn't even close.

if only that made sense

It's not his fault that you're a bit dumb.

boomers pretending nostalgia is more important than design

 

[the mole]

the male karen

 

[The_Mask]

pillars of eternity 1 and 2 are not only functioning games but also pretty well done

Don't do drugs, kids.