Eternity Josh Sawyer reflects on his failures with Pillars of Eternity

[Haplo]

Yep. People say "but you also have trash trivial encounters on BG1/2" But you end that encounter with a single fireball.

Your point?

On PotD Upscaled with a wizard/assassin I finish many of the early encounters with a single Chillfog.

Eventually 1 spell will not be enough to kill all, but once I've cast that stealth Shadowflame and all enemies are paralyzed before the combat even started, its just some mop-up left.

 

[Brancaleone]

I'll try to go out on a limb:

Casuals who seek emphasis on the power aspect of the power fantasy won't find it, since Sawyer is always all too careful to leave it out completely.
Casuals who seek evasion from drab reality won't find it, since playing a character who gets sort of goodish at several unrelated things within a world full of small invasive rules is not evasion from reality, it's real life.
Combatfaqs who seek challenge won't find it because of his 'balancing' approach.
Combatfags who seek good encounter design won't find it because of his delusion that a great system would automatically take care of it.
Those who seek emergent gameplay will be disappointed, since his philosophy is that you solve encounters by the iterative application of a great number of small impact actions.
Those who want classes/archetypes that feel really distinct won't find them, because he believes that they should all be equally viable, and that inevitably lead them to be samey.

No wonder his games turn out meh all around.

I'm sure I'm leaving out quite a few categories of players, but you get the gist.

If only people tried playing a fraction of the time they spent complaining. They might have discovered that "balance" in Deadfire is but a silly meme, unrelated to reality.
Lots of "power" in the power fantasy, many fun ways to "break the system". Broken abilities, overpowered items.

Encounter design is actually solid.

Classes and archetypes are sufficiently distinct IMO. Less so then in PoE1, but it was one of the best games in this aspect. And the move to per encounter powers and multi-classing did muddle the class identity somewhat.

I was referring to Sawyer's peculiar idea of 'balance', which is why I put the term between inverted commas.

It's true, Deadfire is not particularly well balanced (after all, Sawyer had to backtrack quite a few of his fixations). On the other hand, it's incredibly tedious (it's basically busywork as a surrogate of tactics), which means it actually manages to combine the drawbacks of both worlds.

 

[Haplo]

DOS2 has cool environmental/magic interactions and co-op.

Yeah, the gimmicks are fun. For the first hour or so.

 

[Haplo]

I'm gonna get murdered for this opinion but even with Armor Pen flaws and the game balance, I found a great joy engaging in combat. What really turned me down on PoE2 was the story, if the game was pure combat and dungeon delving without much concern on what the fuck was going on outside I think I would have enjoyed much more. Just seeking loot and try breaking the balance man game.

But the story is the big focus so I can't simply ignore, if felt like a really shitty wild goose chase with Eothas where they took a huge shit on player agency. Its either ok mah green huge dood, do your thing lmao fuck everything up or fuck you I will get killed and won't even build a *cough* godhammer to fuck you up, even if I knew people who built damn the thing.

That's largely what I do. Mostly ignore the core story and enjoy the exploration, combat, itemization, questing and breaking the game.
There's plenty of game outside the main story.

 

[Desiderius]

I'm gonna get murdered for this opinion but even with Armor Pen flaws and the game balance, I found a great joy engaging in combat. What really turned me down on PoE2 was the story, if the game was pure combat and dungeon delving without much concern on what the fuck was going on outside I think I would have enjoyed much more. Just seeking loot and try breaking the balance man game.

But the story is the big focus so I can't simply ignore, if felt like a really shitty wild goose chase with Eothas where they took a huge shit on player agency. Its either ok mah green huge dood, do your thing lmao fuck everything up or fuck you I will get killed and won't even build a *cough* godhammer to fuck you up, even if I knew people who built damn the thing.

That's largely what I do. Mostly ignore the core story and enjoy the exploration, combat, itemization, questing and breaking the game.
There's plenty of game outside the main story.

There is now. Breaking (in reality making it better than the alternatives) Arcane Archer was a fun enough challenge to get me through the slog to almost the end. If only there were deeper dungeons/skills/meaningful crafting/surprising exploration etc...

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

PoE suffers from the problem that plague many other western RPGs, which is that an interesting premise is pushed back in order to make place for generic fantasy adventuring. Reincarnation is real and well researched, gods are artificial. It's utilized as a backstory element of some companions and motivation for the final villain, which is revealed at the very end of the game. Instead of that they could for example make the game about it? For example make an adventure that makes the player control multiple incarnations of the same individual? Remembering his past and meeting people from past lives along the way. A beginning of the game could take place in some ancient empire, ruins of which would be explored in the end game. They could do some neat things. For example killing a foe with a soul-stealing soul would make him not appear as a boss in the part of the game taking place in the next incarnation. Or you could get an option to spare a life of petty crook who would then promise to mend his ways. In the next life the player could meet him as an elderly shopkeeper, allowing him to buy some good items. Which would answer the question like: "what does one life matter?", which was the fucking tagline of the game, when it was in development?

It might some far-fetched, but usually when the game has some weird gimmick in the world-building it's actually important to the game itself. Soul Reaver: you are a soul-eating vampire in a world of vampires. Soul-eating is a fundamental game mechanic, and most foes cannot be killed by normal means since they are immortal vampires. Shin Megami Tensei: Lucifer and God are waging war in modern Tokyo. Most of your party members are random people you recruit on the way instead of demons. Dark Souls: you are an undead. Dying over and over again is a basic mechanic.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

I would have been an awesome mechanic, and real consequences for your actions.

 

[Tigranes]

PoE suffers from the problem that plague many other western RPGs, which is that an interesting premise is pushed back in order to make place for generic fantasy adventuring. Reincarnation is real and well researched, gods are artificial. It's utilized as a backstory element of some companions and motivation for the final villain, which is revealed at the very end of the game. Instead of that they could for example make the game about it? For example make an adventure that makes the player control multiple incarnations of the same individual? Remembering his past and meeting people from past lives along the way. A beginning of the game could take place in some ancient empire, ruins of which would be explored in the end game. They could do some neat things. For example killing a foe with a soul-stealing soul would make him not appear as a boss in the part of the game taking place in the next incarnation. Or you could get an option to spare a life of petty crook who would then promise to mend his ways. In the next life the player could meet him as an elderly shopkeeper, allowing him to buy some good items. Which would answer the question like: "what does one life matter?", which was the fucking tagline of the game, when it was in development?

It might some far-fetched, but usually when the game has some weird gimmick in the world-building it's actually important to the game itself. Soul Reaver: you are a soul-eating vampire in a world of vampires. Soul-eating is a fundamental game mechanic, and most foes cannot be killed by normal means since they are immortal vampires. Shin Megami Tensei: Lucifer and God are waging war in modern Tokyo. Most of your party members are random people you recruit on the way instead of demons. Dark Souls: you are an undead. Dying over and over again is a basic mechanic.

It's just one of many places where they either needed to stick real close to "here's BG2 again!!" or "nah you can never make a good game by copying an old great game, we'll just make our best game and lean into what we want". Either would have been good - halfway was the problem.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

halfway was the problem.

Bigger problems existed than simply half measures.

 

[Savecummer]

good lord, will you faggots
SHUT
THE
FUCK
UP
?
nooone is reading these novels!

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Why was I quoted but once good ser?

 

[Savecummer]

its an old screen

 

[Old Hans]

good lord, will you faggots
SHUT
THE
FUCK
UP
?
nooone is reading these novels!

 

[Immortal]

• The world is a confusing mess to navigate. I'm all for open world exploration but look at something like the The Witcher 3 for inspiration here -- gate off a small tutorial area that takes 3-4 hours to get through so the player actually has a sense of what the fuck is going on, where they are, etc.

You mean like.. that starting island that lasts about 3 - 6 hours before it lets you on a ship?

 

[Cleveland Mark Blakemore]

• The world is a confusing mess to navigate. I'm all for open world exploration but look at something like the The Witcher 3 for inspiration here -- gate off a small tutorial area that takes 3-4 hours to get through so the player actually has a sense of what the fuck is going on, where they are, etc.

You mean like.. that starting island that lasts about 3 - 6 hours before it lets you on a ship?

With the rest of the game about 3 hours. Makes total sense.

P.S. Big MT in FNV DLC is 100 times better than both POE games put together. If FNV had been nothing but one of the DLCs, would still be one of the most awesome open world RPGs ever made.

 

[Immortal]

With the rest of the game about 3 hours. Makes total sense.

P.S. Big MT in FNV DLC is 100 times better than both POE games put together. If FNV had been nothing but one of the DLCs, would still be one of the most awesome open world RPGs ever made.

You need to post more - you crack me up.

 

[Decado]

• The world is a confusing mess to navigate. I'm all for open world exploration but look at something like the The Witcher 3 for inspiration here -- gate off a small tutorial area that takes 3-4 hours to get through so the player actually has a sense of what the fuck is going on, where they are, etc.

You mean like.. that starting island that lasts about 3 - 6 hours before it lets you on a ship?

What the fuck are you talking about? The tutorial section of the game is like 40 minutes long.

 

[Poseidon00]

I'm amazed IE autists haven't just made their own game by now. Creating backgrounds/scripting events in IE is really not that hard.

 

[Haplo]

• The world is a confusing mess to navigate. I'm all for open world exploration but look at something like the The Witcher 3 for inspiration here -- gate off a small tutorial area that takes 3-4 hours to get through so the player actually has a sense of what the fuck is going on, where they are, etc.

You mean like.. that starting island that lasts about 3 - 6 hours before it lets you on a ship?

What the fuck are you talking about? The tutorial section of the game is like 40 minutes long.

Consider playing above Story difficulty maybe?

40 minutes is easily taken by a certain difficult fight on PotD. In fact, took me much longer to finally make it the first time I was playing.

 

[the mole]

I'm amazed IE autists haven't just made their own game by now. Creating backgrounds/scripting events in IE is really not that hard.

easier to complain and be a gluttonous child

 

[Takamori]

Wish they made a Dungeon Rats version of PoE.

 

[pomenitul]

Wish they made a Dungeon Rats version of PoE.

Deadfire's Seeker, Slayer, Survivor DLC comes close-ish.

 

[MrMarbles]

Which situation sounds cool?

A ) You after a long time and money, managed to reach the rank master in dark magic. Your most powerful spell eats almost the entire mana pool but deals a lot of damage. If you misjudge the distance, you can kill your own party with that spell splash damage(M&M VI style)

B ) Everything is a slog. Being hit by a volley of arquebus shots and the deadliest spells just dish a little damage.

After playthroughs of POE1&2 and a process of elimination, the conclusion is that a big part of the problem lies here. Here are the options:

1. Is it the writing? No. Sure, it's wordy and uninspired, but you can 1111 your way through most of that. Same goes for the VO actors who sound actively bored.
2. Is it the main story? Not really. Like the writing it doesn't seem to have been crafted by people passionate about RPGs, but you decide the game is bland way before the disappointing finale.
3. Is it fatigue after POE1? Definitely in part. But if a game is good, it should be able to overcome initial slow sales through word of mouth.
4. Is it ship combat? Of course not. This is a tiny part of the game and the player can just ignore that by ramming everything and resolving it with normal combat.
5. Is it the starter island? Maybe. But you have access to the world map from the start, so even if the first island feels underwhelming you are hopeful that the rest of the game will open up (like a repeat of BG2 after the 1st dungeon).
6. Is it the setting? Even if you hate pirates, the marketing and artwork was geared more towards the fantasy aspects. In game, it's more of a colonialism thing.
7. Lack of reactivity? This could be it, but I've never had a problem with it in other games.

That leaves 8. Overbalanced and bland systems. Attribute and skill improvement are linear and percentage based. Not fun. Spells are indistinguishable, short-duration and impossible to read during battles. Not fun. Skill and spell effects are invisible or lost in the blur of a thousand effects going off at once. You can't even tell if a level 8 nuke went off. Not fun. You win by inflicting 78 small hits rather than 3 big hits. Not fun. Since builds are so ability-based, you have to micromanage the shit out of all your party members. Also not fun. Eventually you just steamroll with auto-scripts even on PotD. How miserable and jaded do you have to be to playtest this thing and give the thumbs up?

 

[Cryomancer]

That leaves 8. Overbalanced and bland systems. Attribute and skill improvement are linear and percentage based. Not fun. Spells are indistinguishable, short-duration and impossible to read during battles. Not fun. Skill and spell effects are invisible or lost in the blur of a thousand effects going off at once. You can't even tell if a level 8 nuke went off. Not fun. You win by inflicting 78 small hits rather than 3 big hits. Not fun. Since builds are so ability-based, you have to micromanage the shit out of all your party members

Well said. All reasons are good reasons but the excessive focus on balance created a game which is more akin to a "4e spiritual successor of infinity engine" instead of a true spiritual successor to the infinity engine. He was so focused on making a "tactical game" and "solving IE problems" and forgot that the main point of games is to have fun and that most fantasy RPG appeal is escapism.

For example, on my thread about lethality on RPG's, someone mentioned sawyer reason to destroy that spell > https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/what-is-the-point-of-low-lethality.138265/#post-7278552

Take something like the classic spell Disintegrate from A/D&D. In older editions, this was a total win/loss spell. If the target failed the save, it died, flat out. People effectively used this as an effective degenerate tactic against many difficult enemies in Infinity Engine games. The first spell cast would be Disintegrate. If the target made its save, the player would just reload and try again.

The appeal of "disintegrate", it to disintegrate stuff. Doesn't matter if it is from a spell, superpower, sci fi weapon or wathever. Save scumming is a player choice, if the player wanna save scum is his choice. The best RPG's are unbalanced. Seeing enemies being reduced into dust is fun. Being hit by it too. Micromanaging for long hours is not fun.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

That leaves 8. Overbalanced and bland systems. Attribute and skill improvement are linear and percentage based. Not fun. Spells are indistinguishable, short-duration and impossible to read during battles. Not fun. Skill and spell effects are invisible or lost in the blur of a thousand effects going off at once. You can't even tell if a level 8 nuke went off. Not fun. You win by inflicting 78 small hits rather than 3 big hits. Not fun. Since builds are so ability-based, you have to micromanage the shit out of all your party members. Also not fun. Eventually you just steamroll with auto-scripts even on PotD. How miserable and jaded do you have to be to playtest this thing and give the thumbs up?

Death by papercuts essentially.