Eternity Josh Sawyer reflects on his failures with Pillars of Eternity

[pomenitul]

Sawyer’s deconstruction failed in ways that Sith Lords or Mask of the Betrayer did manage to challenge perceptions and mature concepts

Your previous post refers to Tarkovsky as one of the GOATs, and you praise KOTOR2 and MotB for beating PoE at the deconstruction/subverting expectations game (which is a fair take, by the way). You're better off focusing on the execution, it's a more convincing critical angle.

 

[Brancaleone]

Man it sounds like you're ascribing qualities to the game it does not possess.

"Guys, you know what we should do with all this Kickstarter cash? We should develop the game ironically."

Yeah these suckas are giving is their money for a game LIKE the old school Infinity Engine game! But who wants to make THAT? Let’s show they was a real developer can do!
That will show them!
Enlighten those idiots and their money!

Myself, I'd have subverted the Kickstarter funders' expectation of actually getting a game after forking the money for it.
Think of all the fluff that would have been written in order to present that as a revolutionary act, both artistically and philosophically (a la Piero Manzoni).

 

[Gargaune]

Eh, 'to turn the lived experience of blasé devs' scans better than 'to turn the experience of blasé devs'. Besides, they don't convey quite the same meaning, since 'experience' on its own may well suggest professional experience only (see the remainder of the sentence), which is not what I was going for.

So it's the second option. Still, while pleonasms are sometimes deliberately used for style, I'd suggest you're better off going with "life experience" or "experiences" if you want a clear distinction from professional experience, since "lived experience" sounds like vacuous aggrandisement on top of being redundant.

As to your larger point, I see where you're coming from but I wonder if you're not letting your artistic sensibilities get the better of your pragmatism. Not being snarky, mind you, it's just that there's a difference between "about disappointment" and "disappointing." I said earlier that you can build an RPG around failure but not futility, and I maintain that the latter is fundamentally at odds with the genre, moreso than with videogames in general, since RPGs essentially revolve around developing and overcoming. I should clarify that I'm talking about Deadfire, though, I remember the original PoE as merely bland rather than disappointing, it doesn't elicit strong emotions.

 

[Decado]

Man it sounds like you're ascribing qualities to the game it does not possess.

"Guys, you know what we should do with all this Kickstarter cash? We should develop the game ironically."

I do think it is possible for themes to emerge from a story that were not intended by the author but bubble up and out because of what the creator is actually thinking about (perhaps not even consciously). In this regard, it's not insane to suggest that the disillusionment trope -- the idea that even the gods are fake -- owes at least some explanation to the people largely responsible for spitting it out. Take a bunch of 40-something developers who spend all day in front of the fucking computer, relying (at the time) on a half-assed donation scheme enabled by the internet and knowing that they're spending their god given talents and limited time on this green Earth placating a mob of grognards who want dice rolls to work a certain way for their fantasy video game, where it is highly unlikely that they will be able to say something new (or even interesting). Jesus Christ, it's almost enough to start thinking that this is all a great waste of time anyway.

I could go on with some ham-fisted take on how the gods -- the modern ones -- are fake, but I doubt anyone at Obsidian was getting into the weeds far enough to stub their toes on such weighty material. But the inkling, the nagging feeling at the base of your brain that this is all wrong? Oh yeah, they were (are) probably feeling that in spades.

 

[AdamReith]

Sawyer’s deconstruction failed in ways that Sith Lords or Mask of the Betrayer did manage to challenge perceptions and mature concepts

Your previous post refers to Tarkovsky as one of the GOATs, and you praise KOTOR2 and MotB for beating PoE at the deconstruction/subverting expectations game (which is a fair take, by the way). You're better off focusing on the execution, it's a more convincing critical angle.

I do find that take fascinating, that the writers and narrative designers knew either on a conscious or subconscious level that they were making something that would disappoint and it somehow found its way into the content of the game itself.

I do not see how that could possibly be construed as a positive thing however, it just makes me hate PoE and by extension the con-artists that made it even more.

I mean, the overall quality of the work gives absolutely no credence to the idea that they set out to do that.

 

[pomenitul]

So it's the second option. Still, while pleonasms are sometimes deliberately used for style, I'd suggest you're better off going with "life experience" or "experiences" if you want a clear distinction from professional experience, since "lived experience" sounds like vacuous aggrandisement on top of being redundant.

Let's agree to disagree, shall we? It sounds like a pet peeve of yours more than anything (one that Heidegger admittedly complained about as well, but I've never shared this distaste of his).

it's just that there's a difference between "about disappointment" and "disappointing."

Yes, and I did address this in a subsequent post. It may in fact be both, by the way, and I certainly don't begrudge anyone who finds the end result too drab for comfort. My argument is simply that PoE is a more singular game than it is given credit for due to its thematic aims. I happen to find its uniqueness interesting (up to a point), but that's just me.

 

[Invictus]

Sawyer’s deconstruction failed in ways that Sith Lords or Mask of the Betrayer did manage to challenge perceptions and mature concepts

Your previous post refers to Tarkovsky as one of the GOATs, and you praise KOTOR2 and MotB for beating PoE at the deconstruction/subverting expectations game (which is a fair take, by the way). You're better off focusing on the execution, it's a more convincing critical angle.

I do find that take fascinating, that the writers and narrative designers knew either on a conscious or subconscious level that they were making something that would disappoint and it somehow found its way into the content of the game itself.

I do not see how that could possibly be construed as a positive thing however, it just makes me hate PoE and by extension the con-artists that made it even more.

I mean, the overall quality of the work gives absolutely no credence to the idea that they set out to do that.

Yes it’s like the pretentious art galleries that have these conoseurs analyzing and interpretations here and there for what the artist tried to convey
I rather think that Sawyer and company were just mediocre in their execution of the game they wanted to make rather than they tried to make it bad on purpose to “subvert” the expectations

Tarkovsky has been quoted as making the first hour of Solaris purposely “boring” to make sure the simpletons got bored and left the cinemas... That is giving too much credit to Josh

 

[the mole]

poe is bad because it didn't activate my fee fees enough and my iq isn't high enough to understand it as a piece of art
-average boomer

 

[Brancaleone]

I could go on with some ham-fisted take on how the gods -- the modern ones -- are fake, but I doubt anyone at Obsidian was getting into the weeds far enough to stub their toes on such weighty material. But the inkling, the nagging feeling at the base of your brain that this is all wrong? Oh yeah, they were (are) probably feeling that in spades.

That's probably true, but I think it's all about how you develop the concept, since it not exactly a novel one.

Just to keep the quotes on the entertaining side, compare the only few words about the subject from Terry Pratchett's Witches Abroad ("They probably weren't very good gods. But they were the best she'd been able to make") with the endless tripe you get in PoE.

 

[Desiderius]

Oh so you are one of those... Tarkovsky, deconstruction, subversion of expectations.

You're both right. Foucault isn't as popular as he is just because he's decadent. He's also effective.

poe is bad because it didn't activate my fee fees enough and my iq isn't high enough to understand it as a piece of art
-average boomer

Boomers are too old to have played the originals. You're dealing with Xers here.

 

[AdamReith]

Maybe Josh is just a big Max Payne fan.

 

[Desiderius]

Has it ever occurred to you that I was just following Major Blackheart choice of words ("I want to be entertained"), given that I was replying to him?

But maybe you think that arbitrarily choosing a context-unrelated, narrowed-in-scope definition of a term and try to force it upon the conversation equals having an argument.

Look, if you just want to be entertained go watch netflix and chill. What the fuck are you doing in a gaming forum with that shit.

At least ironic detachment can be somewhat interesting, but you phaggots can't even get it up for the irony any more.

Is this weed?

 

[the mole]

I think it's pretty clever how the gods are handled and their orgin, how you can hate on that aspect doesn't make any sense to me

 

[Brancaleone]

Has it ever occurred to you that I was just following Major Blackheart choice of words ("I want to be entertained"), given that I was replying to him?

But maybe you think that arbitrarily choosing a context-unrelated, narrowed-in-scope definition of a term and try to force it upon the conversation equals having an argument.

Look, if you just want to be entertained go watch netflix and chill. What the fuck are you doing in a gaming forum with that shit.

At least ironic detachment can be somewhat interesting, but you phaggots can't even get it up for the irony any more.

Is this weed?

You are getting really riled up about this.

Simply put, since we are in a vidja forum and nobody has set beforehand a specific context that would make the most generic meaning of "entertainment" inappropriate, I'm perfectly fine with it being used it in the broadest sense. In this situation, I would be also fine with the concept of active entertainment, for example.

While you are being the equivalent of some pretentious idiot who has read half a page of an introduction to Kant, and goes around calling retarded anybody who says that "PoE has no soul" because they are not using the word 'soul' in a Kantian sense.

Is this active-aggressive enough for you, or do you have any more whining to do about it?

 

[the mole]

accusing the other guy of being mad when you're the one mad at a video game, a video game that's supposably so inoffensive and mediocre

 

[pomenitul]

A video game that turned six this year and that consistently elicits butthurt responses from the hivemind to this day. Has another title ever hit as much of a nerve as this one?

 

[the mole]

almost every accusation by the boomer is untrue and reveals his childish nature

game is too balanced

1. wrong, you can destroy the game solo on the hardest difficulty with many many overpowered builds even more overpowered builds in the second game

the game didn't activate my fee fees

2. I'm sorry take another brain pill

I didn't like it

3. I'm sorry

I didn't like the story

4. I'm sorry

 

[JarlFrank]

I said earlier that you can build an RPG around failure but not futility, and I maintain that the latter is fundamentally at odds with the genre, moreso than with videogames in general, since RPGs essentially revolve around developing and overcoming.

I honestly think you could make an RPG about futility that doesn't suck, but it requires a lot of work and talent to pull it off (i.e. Obsidian would not stand the remotest chance of pulling it off).

It may also require the purely Aryan outlook of struggle for the sake of struggle being good, which modern soymen lack

Imagine a game where you're fighting against a foe you know you can't beat, but you still keep fighting because it's better than giving in even though you know the outcome won't change - you're all gonna get wiped out by the enemy either way.
The game's narrative could carry vibes of heroic sacrifice and a life-affirming attitude of never giving in, no matter the odds. NPCs and companions can range from those who accept their fate but keep fighting due to a sense of duty, to those who are of low morale and want to give in, to those who carry a flame of hope that only gets extinguished when they die. Quests can involve delaying the inevitable and/or increasing your odds by sabotaging the enemy wherever you can, trying to find ways to save at least some of your people and their culture by funneling them to escape tunnels or acquiring ships to send them across the sea, etc.
And it would culminate in an epic end fight where you defend your city against an infinite, unbeatable horde of enemies, and your success is measured by your defiance.

I would fucking love to play that.

But there's no way a nihilist would be able to pull it off.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Has another title ever hit as much of a nerve as this one?

Realms of Arkania HD

 

[Desiderius]

I'll cop to a past of getting riled up about such things. I've reached the stage of mastery at this point where swatting away passive-aggressive trash mobs has an enjoyable regularity about it.

I do appreciate efforts to become more manly. Much more where that came from pls.

 

[Brancaleone]

A video game that turned six this year and that consistently elicits butthurt responses from the hivemind to this day. Has another title ever hit as much of a nerve as this one?

Well, it came out after the drought years and was seen by many as the last shot for the sub-genre to be revived, after all.

 

[Brancaleone]

I'll cop to a past of getting riled up about such things. I've reached the stage of mastery at this point where swatting away passive-aggressive trash mobs has an enjoyable regularity about it.

I do appreciate efforts to become more manly. Much more where that came from pls.

I'm deeply impressed at how you managed to eschew flinging insults, whining or self-aggrandizing throughout the whole thing.

A true case of "Brave Sir Robin bravely ran away" if I ever saw any.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

A video game that turned six this year and that consistently elicits butthurt responses from the hivemind to this day. Has another title ever hit as much of a nerve as this one?

Sawyer was a false prophet. People are understandably resentful. He didn't merely fail to deliver. His opus of mediocrity nearly aborted what was supposed to be a renaissance. I'm just about to finish my first playthrough of Siege of Dragonspear. Without question, it has been vastly more enjoyable than PoE was. How sad is that?

 

[Rafidur]

Imagine a game where you're fighting against a foe you know you can't beat, but you still keep fighting because it's better than giving in even though you know the outcome won't change - you're all gonna get wiped out by the enemy either way.

There's a level like that in Wings of Liberty, you play as the last few survivors of a race that are getting slaughtered by endless hordes but still go on fighting until the end. There's also countless "endless modes" in games, though usually detached from the plot.

Final Fantasy Type 0 is also grimdark as fuck and has the tone you mentioned, but the characters are not aware of just how bad it is, aside from the main antagonist of most of the story.

 

[Gargaune]

Let's agree to disagree, shall we? It sounds like a pet peeve of yours more than anything (one that Heidegger admittedly complained about as well, but I've never shared this distaste of his).

Fair enough, I tend to get overly anal about this stuff.

Yes, and I did address this in a subsequent post. It may in fact be both, by the way, and I certainly don't begrudge anyone who finds the end result too drab for comfort. My argument is simply that PoE is a more singular game than it is given credit for due to its thematic aims. I happen to find its uniqueness interesting (up to a point), but that's just me.

That's cool, and you're certainly right to call it unique. I might've been unloading at you as a proxy for Sawyer, I've got an axe to grind over his reaction to Deadfire's reception and I was probably going off on a tangent.

And it would culminate in an epic end fight where you defend your city against an infinite, unbeatable horde of enemies, and your success is measured by your defiance.

But haven't you just undermined your premise? If your success is "measured" by your defiance, then there is still a scope for you to succeed in. This is why I look at Deadfire and suggest that an RPG centred around "futility" is fundamentally broken, it's not that the antagonist's success is a foregone conclusion, but because the protagonist has no part, no agency or variability in the evolution of that critical plot thread. You can work with failure, you could argue PST does, but futility doesn't track. I actually drafted a TLDR on Deadfire's catastrophic mishandling of agency back after I finished it, maybe I'll dust if off if I have time one of the coming weekends.