Eternity Josh Sawyer reflects on his failures with Pillars of Eternity

[Zed Duke of Banville]

When I was a fighting man, the kettle drums they beat:
The people scattered gold dust before my horse’s feet:
Now I am a great King, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine cups and daggers at my back.
- Robert E. Howard, "The Phoenix on the Sword"

 

[gurugeorge]

I mean honestly, I couldn't tell the difference half the time between one class and another. Magic items were all alike, no real crafting fun that I noticed. I mean, what was the difference between priest, wizard, cipher, etc.? A knockdown spell? Some other crap? I dunno. I mean, even the Paladin sub-classes could have had so much more flavor to them.

Yeah, it's full of people who approach PoE/Deadfire with some expectations formed by the IE games, and when they encounter qualitatively different, and much more complex and flexible systems, they never have the disposition to get into them and learn how to play by them. Instead they just drop the game and write uninformed comments like this one.

Is this a mistake on Josh's part, that his design diverged too much from what he was advertising he is "spiritually succeeding"? I think that's his core mistake. The systems themselves are quite good for something developed mostly by one guy who was also managing the whole gamedev project.

This. I think the PoE/PoE2 system is basically sound and makes for fun gameplay (more in its second, more refined iteration than the first), but it's only superficially like D&D style gameplay.

D&D is partly centered around simulation, so things are "lumpy" - some things are crap and some things are great (just like life), and part of the fun is figuring out what's good and bad for yourself. That whole layer of "fun" is missing from these games, and I think that was the initial problem with the first game, which so disappointed those who had been looking forward to it that they didn't create a buzz around the second game.

Also, with simulation, to some extent you're creating a combinatorial explosion of possibilities that even the authors don't really understand themselves, but lots of players poring over the game over time eventually will.

I'm drawing the contrast more sharply than it really is, but I think that's the general idea.

 

[Seusin]

Reminder that all of Deadfire's plot besides the bits actually about the gods and their works is meh to bad. So that means all the bits talking about muh pirates and muh land and muh natives is shit.

 

[Goldschmidt]

Let me spell the core truth: most of the codex hates Sawyer (and this thread proves it) and loves Avellone's dingleberries. Rational or irrational hate, the codex doesn't care.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

I just think it's a real shame he's just rolling over and playing dead, hoping he'll be left alone. He's mistaken if he thinks this is grizz or some such nonsense. It ain't. It's piranha, and piranha devours everything, live or dead, and will eat it's own.

 

[Ismaul]

It's piranha, and piranha devours everything

ELEX is King Incline and will eat your shitty RPGs boys!

 

[Cryomancer]

This guy in reddit nailed it > https://www.reddit.com/r/baldursgat...t_is_it_that_baldurs_gate_was_so_good_at_and/

BG: you can cast spells whenever you want.
PoE: no, only in combat!
.
BG: you can make a bad character, if you want.
PoE: no, whatever you do, your character should be decent.
.
BG: you can get broken, crazy, items. Cloaks that turn you into wolves, rings that double the amount of spells you cast, wands that paralyze even some of the most powerful enemies etc. (and I'm just naming BG1 stuff here).
PoE: no, it's too much! Have a sword that does a bit more damage or an armor that's a little bit more protective.
.
BG: you can run straight to powerful monsters and kill them for tons of xp, if you want.
PoE: no, you play the game our way. Killing monsters doesn't yield xp, you're supposed to do quests, even if it's your 500th time through the game and you've seen every possible outcome.
.
BG: you can multiclass and dual-class.
PoE (1, at least they fixed that in 2, holy hell): no, single classes only!
.
BG: mages can buff, summon, do damage, polymorph, debuff etc..
PoE: no, that's too much power (read: fun) for one class. Divide them up into several very narrow classes.
.
BG: you can move around as much as you want during combat.
PoE: no, sit still while you're engaged.
.
BG: here's a level 1 spell that can instakill an enemy and here's a spell that can turn even the final boss into a squirrel. Have fun.
PoE: no, almost all mage spells should be 'do x amount of y type of damage', that's more balanced.
.
BG: your druid can stay shapeshifted for as long as you want. Hell, pretend you're a bear permanently if you want.
PoE: no, shapeshifting only in combat and only for a small amount of time!

 

[MajorMace]

Most of this is adressed in the sequel and people still liked the first game better.
These comparisons make for great oneliners though, I'll agree.

 

[Atchodas]

This guy in reddit nailed it > https://www.reddit.com/r/baldursgat...t_is_it_that_baldurs_gate_was_so_good_at_and/

BG: you can cast spells whenever you want.
PoE: no, only in combat!
.
BG: you can make a bad character, if you want.
PoE: no, whatever you do, your character should be decent.
.
BG: you can get broken, crazy, items. Cloaks that turn you into wolves, rings that double the amount of spells you cast, wands that paralyze even some of the most powerful enemies etc. (and I'm just naming BG1 stuff here).
PoE: no, it's too much! Have a sword that does a bit more damage or an armor that's a little bit more protective.
.
BG: you can run straight to powerful monsters and kill them for tons of xp, if you want.
PoE: no, you play the game our way. Killing monsters doesn't yield xp, you're supposed to do quests, even if it's your 500th time through the game and you've seen every possible outcome.
.
BG: you can multiclass and dual-class.
PoE (1, at least they fixed that in 2, holy hell): no, single classes only!
.
BG: mages can buff, summon, do damage, polymorph, debuff etc..
PoE: no, that's too much power (read: fun) for one class. Divide them up into several very narrow classes.
.
BG: you can move around as much as you want during combat.
PoE: no, sit still while you're engaged.
.
BG: here's a level 1 spell that can instakill an enemy and here's a spell that can turn even the final boss into a squirrel. Have fun.
PoE: no, almost all mage spells should be 'do x amount of y type of damage', that's more balanced.
.
BG: your druid can stay shapeshifted for as long as you want. Hell, pretend you're a bear permanently if you want.
PoE: no, shapeshifting only in combat and only for a small amount of time!

Obshitian fanboys gonna work overtime now in that thread, already can see some wall of texts defending pillars

 

[Cryomancer]

Obshitian fanboys gonna work overtime now in that thread, already can see some wall of texts defending pillars

I posted it cuz I saw a lot of Pillars fanboys saying that we like BG1/2 more only due "nostalgia".

So a zoomer writting

"As a 18y.o. zoomer, without the effects of nostalgia, I'm playing through baldurs gate 1 right now. I was introduced to crpgs by pillars of eternity 1 and finished it, played it for 180+ hours. So I liked it a lot yes, but I'm much more hooked to baldurs gate 1, a game so much older. And they told me that bg2 is even better nooo way. Then I played planescape: torment, damn, that's much better than pillars of eternity too.

Why? Why can't they nail crpgs like they used to nowadays? More technology, more budget. It makes me sad knowing when I finish these games this will be it, because they can't make games like these anymore.

PoE was boring at times, but bg1 and planescape always keeps me wanting for more, they are just so much memorable and idk.. I dont really know what makes them so good, what is it that makes you love these games so much? Or am i alone in thinking baldurs gate and planescape are much much better than poe?" source of the original post > source https://www.reddit.com/r/baldursgat...t_is_it_that_baldurs_gate_was_so_good_at_and/ [

Defeats his excuse.

Pillars is good? Yes. Is great as BG1/2? No.

 

[Immortal]

Obshitian fanboys gonna work overtime now in that thread, already can see some wall of texts defending pillars

I posted it cuz I saw a lot of Pillars fanboys saying that we like BG1/2 more only due "nostalgia".

So a zoomer writting

"As a 18y.o. zoomer, without the effects of nostalgia, I'm playing through baldurs gate 1 right now. I was introduced to crpgs by pillars of eternity 1 and finished it, played it for 180+ hours. So I liked it a lot yes, but I'm much more hooked to baldurs gate 1, a game so much older. And they told me that bg2 is even better nooo way. Then I played planescape: torment, damn, that's much better than pillars of eternity too.

Why? Why can't they nail crpgs like they used to nowadays? More technology, more budget. It makes me sad knowing when I finish these games this will be it, because they can't make games like these anymore.

PoE was boring at times, but bg1 and planescape always keeps me wanting for more, they are just so much memorable and idk.. I dont really know what makes them so good, what is it that makes you love these games so much? Or am i alone in thinking baldurs gate and planescape are much much better than poe?" source of the original post >

https://www.reddit.com/r/baldursgat...t_is_it_that_baldurs_gate_was_so_good_at_and/

Defeats his excuse.

Pillars is good? Yes. Is great as BG1/2? No.

"I dont really know what makes them so good, what is it that makes you love these games so much?"

I think that even the "Industry Veterans" don't know the answer to this.
How many of our CRPG idols of old have been given a blank check to make whatever they want and produced utter boring trite.

There must of been something magical about building a game from scratch and testing concepts and gameplay elements in a room with friends, that produces that unwashed coal covered diamond like an Arcanum / BG / etc.. where parts of the game seem unnecessary, unfinished or outright buggy.. compared today where every game is attempting to just copy those older games - streamlined and ~balanced~ only to end up soulless and forgettable.

Most of this is adressed in the sequel and people still liked the first game better.
These comparisons make for great oneliners though, I'll agree.

Are you basing this on sales or Prime Junta's Reeing ?

If Deadfire sales sucked that's 100% because of PoE1's failure. Players can't judge a games quality until they play it. PoE1 was promised to be BG3.. it came out and was fucking shit, who would sign up to buy Deadfire after that even if Deadfire was much closer to that promised experience?

To make a prediction here, Outer Worlds was marketed as Fallout New Vegas in space. Wanna make a guess how number 2 will sell? Even if it's 10x better.
(Maybe Marketing saves this game, not sure - I'm certainly not pre-ordering it though)

Personally, I think deadfire was far better - although even if the game was wildly criticized / hated - show me how those reasons were the culprit.. not the fact that the story was shit, the ship exploration was tedious or that the game was piss easy on launch.

 

[Atchodas]

The issue is that video games are supposed to be fun

And then Pillars were

 

[Desiderius]

It does capture elements of the feel and frustration with the limitations Soyer's ego forced upon the game, but many of the zingers don't turn out to be true once one becomes familiar the game's ins and outs. Enough are that of course it doesn't compete with the BGs but there are exceptions as Haplo has illustrated that make for a better than satisfactory game and better than that when you get to the DLC content.

Unfortunately same was true of the first game. One hopes that is just a coincidence but hard to have much confidence that that is the case. Poor marketing strategy if intentional. They got my money but not my love and it's the latter that sells the next game.

 

[Efe]

do guys think the user named chaoticevilwarlock on reddit thread is Meredoth ?
incline is yes, decline is no. vote!

 

[Desiderius]

I think that even the "Industry Veterans" don't know the answer to this.

BG was made for a market the devs loved.

PoE was made for a market Josh despised.

That's the difference.

 

[Immortal]

I think that even the "Industry Veterans" don't know the answer to this.

BG was made for a market the devs loved.

PoE was made for a market Josh despised.

That's the difference.

I don't disagree at all. Every deviation from the formula he took was wrong - but it's a bigger problem than Sawyer.

Like explain The Outer Worlds to me.. the founders of Troika produced probably the most bland game I've ever played.
Tim "World of Warcraft Strongholds are Amazing Design" Cain especially should be embarrassed.

 

[Cryomancer]

do guys think the user named chaoticevilwarlock on reddit thread is Meredoth ?

Already said that I an the Chaotic Evil Warlock.

How many of our CRPG idols of old have been given a blank check to make whatever they want and produced utter boring trite.

Pathfinder Kingmaker disagrees.

PF:KM is the second best modern RPG that I ever played, losing only to Pathfinder : Wrath of the Righteous.

 

[Can't handle the bacon]

Pillars is good?

No. It's boring AF in almost every single aspect of the game. No redeeming qualities.

 

[Siveon]

Like explain The Outer Worlds to me.. the founders of Troika produced probably the most bland game I've ever played.
Tim "World of Warcraft Strongholds are Amazing Design" Cain especially should be embarrassed.

I'm not gonna pretend I know what Tim Cain is like, but often when you tell someone to recreate a lightning in the bottle (which was the Troika team and the creativeness they displayed), they're just not gonna do it themselves. They weren't in the right headspace, too much meddling, too little meddling, overcompensating for current industry standards, team differences, whatever happened - they fucked up. And often old guard "industry veteran" devs are gonna fuck up cuz it's usually been ages since their popular game and eventually talent, creativeness, etc, changes.

It's rare to keep a consistent standard, especially when dealing with the fucked up process of making video games.

 

[Immortal]

Pathfinder Kingmaker disagrees.

PF:KM is the second best modern RPG that I ever played, losing only to Pathfinder : Wrath of the Righteous.

> 2 Euros have been deposited in your Cypress account


Are Owlcat "Industry Veterans" that have been resurrected from the dead to reproduce a lightning-in-a-bottle game from 20 years ago, or a start up company of fresh faces writing a game from scratch based on what they love?

I think you missed my entire point, I'll assume language barrier over stupidity (for now).

 

[Israfael]

Are Owlcat "Industry Veterans" that have been resurrected from the dead to reproduce a lightning-in-a-bottle game from 20 years ago, or a start up company of fresh faces writing a game from scratch based on what they love?

Neither, actually. I'd say they actually created the game they wanted to make (not based on some marketing 'bigdata' analytics / focus groups and so on) rather than followed the market. Having a mixed team of freshmen and industry veterans probably helped them (willingness to listen to the audience) as well as caused some troubles (bugs)

 

[BING XI LAO]

Kingmaker has worse artstyle, graphics, plot, setting, companions
It has marginally better combat due to being a D&D clone
still shit

 

[Desiderius]

I think that even the "Industry Veterans" don't know the answer to this.

BG was made for a market the devs loved.

PoE was made for a market Josh despised.

That's the difference.

I don't disagree at all. Every deviation from the formula he took was wrong - but it's a bigger problem than Sawyer.

Like explain The Outer Worlds to me.. the founders of Troika produced probably the most bland game I've ever played.
Tim "World of Warcraft Strongholds are Amazing Design" Cain especially should be embarrassed.

Josh does it because he's a weak man following the zeitgeist of his milieu. If anything he's closer to us than the norm.

But not close enough.

 

[Can't handle the bacon]

Like explain The Outer Worlds to me.. the founders of Troika produced probably the most bland game I've ever played.

Hello. Have you come seeking the Temple of Elemental Evil?

 

[Yosharian]

How dare you compare ToEE to TOW