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Just Finished Chrono Trigger

Falksi

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Feb 14, 2017
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Sega Genesis I don't think was very popular in the West or maybe that was just me.
I believe it was famous in Europe, but I may be wrong here. It was quite famous in Brazil, though. Everyone I knew had a Mega Drive and a SNES, myself included.
Yeah I should have said America not West. I don't know the exact numbers of consoles sold or if the Sega had a lot of RPGs at all, I just don't recall a lot of kids talking about the Sega as a kid, or Sonic. I think I knew one kid briefly that had a Genesis that I played with once. That was it. I was actually kind of surprised there was such a strong Sonic fanbase on the internet as well. I don't think you see this shit with Mario.
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Nintendo with its Super Famicom / SNES managed to edge out Sega's Megadrive/Genesis globally thanks to crushing Sega in Japan, but Sega outsold Nintendo nearly everywhere else, typically by small margins.

The real sad thing is that it was a genuine war between those forms to outdo each other. That conflict drove both to push boundaries and in turn make some awesome games. War is so much more productive.

Now it feels as if everything is unified under one AAA banner of shite. I'd love SEGA to produce a cart-based, instant play, arcade style modern console and release a ton of sequels in the Streets of Rage 4 vain on it, backed with quality indie games too.
 

BLOBERT

FUCKING SLAYINGN IT BROS
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I was actually kind of surprised there was such a strong Sonic fanbase on the internet as well
That is the weird part. The most famous Sonic fan is american(Chris-Chan) and a lot of the sonic fans are americans, yet Mega Drive was not that big in USA as far as I have read.

BRO SEGA GENESIS WAS HUGE IN AMERICA
 

Viata

Arcane
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Nov 11, 2014
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Water Play Catarinense
I was actually kind of surprised there was such a strong Sonic fanbase on the internet as well
That is the weird part. The most famous Sonic fan is american(Chris-Chan) and a lot of the sonic fans are americans, yet Mega Drive was not that big in USA as far as I have read.

BRO SEGA GENESIS WAS HUGE IN AMERICA
I think Nintendo fans have been pushing the idea that MD was not a success in America. Only valid explanation.
 

HeatEXTEND

Prophet
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It's impossible because 2 did everything right and so good you can ignore 1 after playing it.
Luckily in europe 2 was simply released as a stand-alone, never knew it was the second in a series until much later :thumbsup:
 

Falksi

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Indeed, it's sorted by votes automatically.
 

Gastrick

Cipher
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Messages
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if I may, what are you even arguing here? maybe I missed something, but Grimlorn is spot-on in his thesis in my opinion. I don't understand how FF7 and FF8's mechanics have any bearing on whether FF6 is linear or not? I don't understand how 'if it ends the same way and the only choice is who you bring, that doesn't make it unlinear in any way' improves your case that Zelda and Super Metroid are less linear than FF6 and CT when all but CT have just one ending (unless you count the traditional speedrun bikini bonus of Super Metroid as an example of a different ending...)
I added quotes so it should make sense. Also, maze-like levels are better than open-world (both at once is best) so that is a plus of Super Metroid and LTTP.
 
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mogwaimon

Magister
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Jul 21, 2017
Messages
1,079
if I may, what are you even arguing here? maybe I missed something, but Grimlorn is spot-on in his thesis in my opinion. I don't understand how FF7 and FF8's mechanics have any bearing on whether FF6 is linear or not? I don't understand how 'if it ends the same way and the only choice is who you bring, that doesn't make it unlinear in any way' improves your case that Zelda and Super Metroid are less linear than FF6 and CT when all but CT have just one ending (unless you count the traditional speedrun bikini bonus of Super Metroid as an example of a different ending...)
I added quotes so it should make sense. Also, maze-like levels are better than open-world (both at once is best) so that is a plus of Super Metroid and LTTP.

well, now it does make some sort of sense but I would refute your points about FF6, when Grimlorn says 'you can even choose who you want to bring with you to the final dungeon' he doesn't mean purely from a character standpoint, he means that once you get the airship in the WoR you can do as much or as little of the second half of the game as you want; you can hit up the final dungeon with only the 4 characters the game gives you if you want, you can opt out of doing certain quests and not bring certain characters with you to the final battle... it's not just a case of 'i have X amount of characters in my roster, I'll bring these guys' it's a choice of how much of the critical path you really want to do unlike LttP and Super Metroid where there are some optional areas and you can tackle some areas in a different order but ultimately you still have to beat all 7 Dark World dungeons in LttP and off the four bosses in Super Metroid....though FF6 is pretty linear before the WoR I'll give you that, but still it's a fairly open game in the second half.

As for FF7 and FF8 offering more customization and complexity than FF6 because of the materia system and card system respectively...well, that sounds true on the surface except FF6's magicite system is basically the prototype of the FF7 materia system and thus is very similar to it in a number of ways and FF8's card system seems complex until you just draw enough Ultima stacks to get your stats maxed out, which is basically what that boils down to.

and finally on the subject of maze-like levels being better than open-world.. well sure, the dungeons in FF6 and Chrono Trigger definitely aren't the best I'll give you that but you're also comparing apples to oranges there, you've got two JRPGs up against a 'metroidvania' and an action-adventure game (or whatever genre you'd put Zelda under, but it's not a JRPG). the level design philosophy is quite different between those genres and while I agree that the level design in Super Metroid and LttP is better than FF6 and CT, it's an unfair comparison.
 

Gastrick

Cipher
Joined
Aug 1, 2020
Messages
1,515
if I may, what are you even arguing here? maybe I missed something, but Grimlorn is spot-on in his thesis in my opinion. I don't understand how FF7 and FF8's mechanics have any bearing on whether FF6 is linear or not? I don't understand how 'if it ends the same way and the only choice is who you bring, that doesn't make it unlinear in any way' improves your case that Zelda and Super Metroid are less linear than FF6 and CT when all but CT have just one ending (unless you count the traditional speedrun bikini bonus of Super Metroid as an example of a different ending...)
I added quotes so it should make sense. Also, maze-like levels are better than open-world (both at once is best) so that is a plus of Super Metroid and LTTP.
As for FF7 and FF8 offering more customization and complexity than FF6 because of the materia system and card system respectively...well, that sounds true on the surface except FF6's magicite system is basically the prototype of the FF7 materia system and thus is very similar to it in a number of ways and FF8's card system seems complex until you just draw enough Ultima stacks to get your stats maxed out, which is basically what that boils down to.
With FF8, when you use magic it uses up cards which in turn can lower stats. Also, drawing is usually a move that will lead to consequences like the battle going worse. Maxing out your cards isn't the intended way to play, given how the game balance is affected. It's semi-powergaming. You can't reach Ultima until near the end of the game so for most of it you need to decide which stats are best to improve with the cards. Not to mention that many final fantasy games have their ways to make your character game-breakingly OP (like FFX) and farming Ultima is just another one of those.

The materia system was an improvement over FF6 though.

the dungeons in FF6 and Chrono Trigger definitely aren't the best I'll give you that but you're also comparing apples to oranges there
Maybe apples to oranges where one of the fruits is rotting.
 

mogwaimon

Magister
Joined
Jul 21, 2017
Messages
1,079
if I may, what are you even arguing here? maybe I missed something, but Grimlorn is spot-on in his thesis in my opinion. I don't understand how FF7 and FF8's mechanics have any bearing on whether FF6 is linear or not? I don't understand how 'if it ends the same way and the only choice is who you bring, that doesn't make it unlinear in any way' improves your case that Zelda and Super Metroid are less linear than FF6 and CT when all but CT have just one ending (unless you count the traditional speedrun bikini bonus of Super Metroid as an example of a different ending...)
I added quotes so it should make sense. Also, maze-like levels are better than open-world (both at once is best) so that is a plus of Super Metroid and LTTP.
As for FF7 and FF8 offering more customization and complexity than FF6 because of the materia system and card system respectively...well, that sounds true on the surface except FF6's magicite system is basically the prototype of the FF7 materia system and thus is very similar to it in a number of ways and FF8's card system seems complex until you just draw enough Ultima stacks to get your stats maxed out, which is basically what that boils down to.
With FF8, when you use magic it uses up cards which in turn can lower stats. Also, drawing is usually a move that will lead to consequences like the battle going worse. Maxing out your cards isn't the intended way to play, given how the game balance is affected. It's semi-powergaming. You can't reach Ultima until near the end of the game so for most of it you need to decide which stats are best to improve with the cards. Not to mention that many final fantasy games have their ways to make your character game-breakingly OP (like FFX) and farming Ultima is just another one of those.

The materia system was an improvement over FF6 though.

the dungeons in FF6 and Chrono Trigger definitely aren't the best I'll give you that but you're also comparing apples to oranges there
Maybe apples to oranges where one of the fruits is rotting.

once you get max stacks of Ultima there's no point in casting Ultima since the strat is to just do limit breaks all day long or spam Guardian Forces, you can even get Squall's ultimate weapon in the first few hours of the game just by farming Triple Triad, kek. Hell you don't even need to be in battle to get max Ultima stacks, there's a draw point that you can buy Ultima from for 5k gil each and there's also a method to gain infinite gil through exploiting the Carbuncle GF so....yea. if anything you should be arguing that FF8 is less linear in some respects than FF6 rather than trying to argue in favor of FF8 on the strength of its core system mechanics. all the complexity and customization ultimately doesn't matter if the game boils down to one overwhelmingly powerful strategy in the end, and whether it's the 'intended way to play' or not is irrelevant to this discussion, I would think.

I do agree that the materia system in FF7 is an improvement, yes, but when you boil it down all they really did was make a few tweaks like allowing multiple materia per character as opposed to one magicite per character and putting commands that were unique to each character in FF6 on command materia in FF7 and requiring materia to still be equipped to use abilities as opposed to the character keeping spells even if they change magicite... but otherwise the core of the system is very much the same; equip the magic stone and get new skills/spells while also gaining extra stats per level based on which magic stone you have equipped.
 

Gastrick

Cipher
Joined
Aug 1, 2020
Messages
1,515
once you get max stacks of Ultima there's no point in casting Ultima since the strat is to just do limit breaks all day long or spam Guardian Forces, you can even get Squall's ultimate weapon in the first few hours of the game just by farming Triple Triad, kek. Hell you don't even need to be in battle to get max Ultima stacks, there's a draw point that you can buy Ultima from for 5k gil each and there's also a method to gain infinite gil through exploiting the Carbuncle GF so....yea. if anything you should be arguing that FF8 is less linear in some respects than FF6 rather than trying to argue in favor of FF8 on the strength of its core system mechanics. all the complexity and customization ultimately doesn't matter if the game boils down to one overwhelmingly powerful strategy in the end, and whether it's the 'intended way to play' or not is irrelevant to this discussion, I would think.

I do agree that the materia system in FF7 is an improvement, yes, but when you boil it down all they really did was make a few tweaks like allowing multiple materia per character as opposed to one magicite per character and putting commands that were unique to each character in FF6 on command materia in FF7 and requiring materia to still be equipped to use abilities as opposed to the character keeping spells even if they change magicite... but otherwise the core of the system is very much the same; equip the magic stone and get new skills/spells while also gaining extra stats per level based on which magic stone you have equipped.

I don't see what is so wrong with a game having methods to become super OP for those who want to play that way. Every major retro console comes with a gameshark utility that lets you get infinite damage or health much easier than any in-game method could anyway.
 

mogwaimon

Magister
Joined
Jul 21, 2017
Messages
1,079
once you get max stacks of Ultima there's no point in casting Ultima since the strat is to just do limit breaks all day long or spam Guardian Forces, you can even get Squall's ultimate weapon in the first few hours of the game just by farming Triple Triad, kek. Hell you don't even need to be in battle to get max Ultima stacks, there's a draw point that you can buy Ultima from for 5k gil each and there's also a method to gain infinite gil through exploiting the Carbuncle GF so....yea. if anything you should be arguing that FF8 is less linear in some respects than FF6 rather than trying to argue in favor of FF8 on the strength of its core system mechanics. all the complexity and customization ultimately doesn't matter if the game boils down to one overwhelmingly powerful strategy in the end, and whether it's the 'intended way to play' or not is irrelevant to this discussion, I would think.

I do agree that the materia system in FF7 is an improvement, yes, but when you boil it down all they really did was make a few tweaks like allowing multiple materia per character as opposed to one magicite per character and putting commands that were unique to each character in FF6 on command materia in FF7 and requiring materia to still be equipped to use abilities as opposed to the character keeping spells even if they change magicite... but otherwise the core of the system is very much the same; equip the magic stone and get new skills/spells while also gaining extra stats per level based on which magic stone you have equipped.

I don't see what is so wrong with a game having methods to become super OP for those who want to play that way. Every major retro console comes with a gameshark utility that lets you get infinite damage or health much easier than any in-game method could anyway.

there's nothing wrong with it, IMO, but on the flip side I also don't think that systems that allow for you to become 'super OP' to the point where one particular tactic or build makes all other tactics/builds irrelevant in comparison should be held up as an example of a complex system that allows for customization. The simple fact of the matter is that in terms of systems and underlying game mechanics, Final Fantasy as a series has never been all that strong to begin with as the games are typically so easy that the complexity of the systems are irrelevant (i.e. FF8 being able to be beaten through Guardian Force spam, Bum Rush in FF6 being an 'i win' button once you get it on Sabin/Nash, etc) and the strengths of the games lie in their charm and their ability to tell an engaging story while taking you on a world-spanning adventure. Unless, of course, you use a romhack/difficulty mod which make the mechanics more solid and buffs up the enemy A.I. and the like, but that's beside the matter.

also lawl at using cheat devices to wave off a game's systems being busted, christ.
 

Grimlorn

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Joined
Jun 1, 2011
Messages
10,058
well, now it does make some sort of sense but I would refute your points about FF6, when Grimlorn says 'you can even choose who you want to bring with you to the final dungeon' he doesn't mean purely from a character standpoint, he means that once you get the airship in the WoR you can do as much or as little of the second half of the game as you want; you can hit up the final dungeon with only the 4 characters the game gives you if you want, you can opt out of doing certain quests and not bring certain characters with you to the final battle... it's not just a case of 'i have X amount of characters in my roster, I'll bring these guys' it's a choice of how much of the critical path you really want to do unlike LttP and Super Metroid where there are some optional areas and you can tackle some areas in a different order but ultimately you still have to beat all 7 Dark World dungeons in LttP and off the four bosses in Super Metroid....though FF6 is pretty linear before the WoR I'll give you that, but still it's a fairly open game in the second half.
Tried to explain all of this but this guy is in denial.

On the subject of the Esper system. It doesn't just control what magic you learn, it also controls what stat gains you get per level, which means there's a variety of ways to customize your characters strengths and weaknesses. FF7 doesn't have that. It also doesn't have the same level of customization for your character's gear that FF6 has, but that's not going to matter to him.

You're not going to be able to convince some people they're wrong, and they'll never admit it no matter what evidence you bring to the table.

The materia system was an improvement over FF6 though.
Just LOL.
 

Reality

Learned
Joined
Dec 6, 2019
Messages
249
The Materia that gives stat gain per level are too strong tbh, Flat +2 magic (even the+1 magic) per level being the main offenders. It's why I remember FF6 being seperated into World of AutoCrossbow and World of Magicspam instead of Balance/Ruin. Most games with stat growth items are only growth percentages for a reason.

I always found it dodgy that it's possible to get plenty of party members with resource-less physical AoE in the first half of the game when MP pools are small, and then shortly after the world of ruin starts everyone's MP pool is finally large enough to use level 2 magic in every battle (level 3 magic isn't worth learning since theirs a damage cap anyway)

The summon I remember most from my playthrough was Phantom, because the invisibilty will persist between mutiple battles if you kill everything in a single turn, which is a given for random enconters.

The game tries to be clever with its bosses (teaching you the target self with reflect magic trick, phantom's poessesion gimmick, etc) but throughout the entire game, they are basically given just enough HP to use their big attack once and die the turn after. Also almost all enemies in the entire game have an lopsided action pool that is like weak attack, low accuracy status, weak attack, heavy spike damage, which just ruins the flow of combat in a lot of ways since it de-emphasizes healing party memebers to top off as they're worn down because essentially all signigant damage is done at once or not at all and the rest of the timte the game is basically giving you free hits (starting as early as random encounters in the world of balance water section)

FF6 kinda simultanteously reminds me of both "Rpgs with complicated systems that aren't actualy used for anyhing" and "RPGs where I actually wish they would go back to primitive AI" at least I can rely on FF4/Phantasy Star 4' s bpsses tp AoE me every turn and give me a drag-out fight.
 

Zariusz

Arbiter
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Civitas Schinesghe
While this game is not from that era i recommend Black Sigil Blade Of the Exile. Its a DS game very inspired by Chrono Trigger, same combat system (though combat and exploration have different maps and you can move your characters during fight) and aesthetic. The biggest problem is the encounter rate, its very bugged and while encounters arent very hard the whole amount of them could grind you to dust and exhaust your party and eq. I didnt found any patch for this on web but if you are interested maybe you will find fix for this.
 
Self-Ejected

aeternalis

Wordcel
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Messages
479
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the aether
Chrono Trigger is mediocre as fuck and the most overrated RPG of all time, if it even is an RPG at all (no). Pick any other 90s Squaresoft game at random and it's almost certainly going to be far, far better.
It gets plenty right in the set dressing (e.g art, story), but as a game it is the finest filter to determine who has standards and who does not, as it is kindergarten levels of engagement, depth, challenge and complexity. There is barely a game there at all, just the illusion of one.

you've explained perfectly why I loved it in spite of the gameplay. I'm a storyfag at heart and CT nailed the story, art, music.
 

Talby

Arcane
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Messages
5,250
Codex USB, 2014
Junction system > all.
 

Duraframe300

Arcane
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Dec 21, 2010
Messages
5,966
Chrono Trigger is mediocre as fuck and the most overrated RPG of all time, if it even is an RPG at all (no). Pick any other 90s Squaresoft game at random and it's almost certainly going to be far, far better.
It gets plenty right in the set dressing (e.g art, story), but as a game it is the finest filter to determine who has standards and who does not, as it is kindergarten levels of engagement, depth, challenge and complexity. There is barely a game there at all, just the illusion of one.

you've explained perfectly why I loved it in spite of the gameplay. I'm a storyfag at heart and CT nailed the story, art, music.

I've had this thought for longer, but one thing that can be said about CT's gameplay is that while its barebones there's a surprising amount of room for optimization, especially early on. If I recall correctly it has been argued that it's pretty much *Press A to win*, which you can do, but that just takes a horrible long time.

Strategic waiting + properly placing dual/triple techs + a perfectly timed follow up attack + preventing enemy animations can often shave minutes of a battle and probably up to an hour+ on a full run.
 
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Grimlorn

Arcane
Joined
Jun 1, 2011
Messages
10,058
Chrono Trigger is mediocre as fuck and the most overrated RPG of all time, if it even is an RPG at all (no). Pick any other 90s Squaresoft game at random and it's almost certainly going to be far, far better.
It gets plenty right in the set dressing (e.g art, story), but as a game it is the finest filter to determine who has standards and who does not, as it is kindergarten levels of engagement, depth, challenge and complexity. There is barely a game there at all, just the illusion of one.

you've explained perfectly why I loved it in spite of the gameplay. I'm a storyfag at heart and CT nailed the story, art, music.

I've had this thought for longer, but one thing that can be said about CT's gameplay is that while its barebones there's a surprising amount of room for optimization, especially early on. If I recall correctly it has been argued that it's pretty much *Press A to win*, which you can do, but that just takes a horrible long time.

Strategic waiting + properly placing dual/triple techs + a perfectly timed follow up attack + preventing enemy animations can often shave minutes of a battle and probably up to an hour+ on a full run.
There are mobs that are only really vuln to magic, so saying it's just a press A to win is retardedly dishonest. Try fighting Magus without using any magic for instance. And really you could say that about any of those early JRPGs. Just attack to win. Hell in FF1 you can make a team of fighters and just press A to win. Or say the early DQ games.

CT got rid of the random battle formula that was everywhere in JRPGs. You could see your enemies on screen, you could run past most fights and you could like you said use certain techs depending on enemy placement and movement. So much could have been done with a system like that in future JRPGs but they just stuck to the heroes and enemies are in a line and take turns attacking formula in future games and consoles.
 

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