Game News Kickstarter Drama: Conquistador, Shadowrun and Eisenwald

[Al3xand3r]

Eh, I'm fine with delays, it happens and it's no big deal, there's nothing shameless about it either, plus we know the game exists and is pretty decent from the various hands-on sessions by experienced gamers.

The Shadowrun Returns case is despicable, not so much for the loot and saving which they never promised anyway as when you back a game you don't get to choose all of its bullet points (though it does hint at major issues with the development) but for not delivering the PUBLIC drm-free release with two cities that they promised, instead turning it into a public Steam-only release of a game + extra DLC with a gimped and soon (once more DLC and mods that use it come out) to be obsolete drm-free version for backers that they try to make up for by also giving them a copy of the fully functional Steam release.

That's not how it works folks, I didn't back the game for the reward tiers alone, I backed it for everything they promised for the project as a whole, for every future buyer as well, not only myself. I can understand if the game doesn't end up as good as I hope but they made promises they apparently never should have since they promised things before working out their own licensing agreements.

The way they've handled the whole thing makes me think it will end up being at best some RPG-lite for casual iPad gamers. Hopefully I'm wrong but I got my refund anyway and if I'm wrong I'll buy it later during a sale when I will at least know they can't break any more of their promises with excuses like we run out of money or we're too small a team despite getting like 4+ times what they were asking for, so 4+ times the man hours with the same or additional staff, which makes it sound like if they had only gotten the basic goal they wouldn't even be able to deliver anything that resembles a role playing game.

Pretty crazy that their fans (how do they even get fans, what have they done) quote the FAQ and how they still technically provide all they promised by conveniently missing key words like "public" not to mention the belief it's fine to provide a gimped DRM-free version just because they didn't explicitly promise the same support as the then hypothetical Steam release, even though they didn't state this would vary anyway.

But yeah, mere delays should not be compared to what Harebrained are doing here on any level, unless they get so bad that you start doubting there will be a game to release at all, like Grimoire.

 

[Roguey]

If you backed it believing that your friends would be able to get a DRM-free version later, you're out of luck. And I wouldn't fault anyone for believe that, since that's what HBS said:

It seems odd to me, someone not backing a project because their friend might not want to in the future.

Not true. It doesn't help that their initial explanation for the DRM turned out to be a lie:

After a lot of prototyping and research, we decided that our best delivery option for OSX/Windows/Linux is to go the route that great games (like Skyrim!) have taken and embrace Steam and the Steam Workshop. Steam allows us to provide up-to-date downloads and patching along with a vibrant ecosystem for developing community-created content and file sharing.
...
We realize that for some of you, releasing on Steam isn’t your first choice but there are a lot of really great things we get from this decision that allow us to focus on the game rather than on making things like backend servers to deploy and manage shared content. From the start, we’ve had to make practical decisions like this one to ensure we get the most out of the support you’ve given us. We consider this to be the best option for everyone.

I don't see that as a lie. They could have gone with multiple digital distribution platforms with DRM and chose Steam.

 

[Al3xand3r]

I don't see that as a lie. They could have gone with multiple digital distribution platforms with DRM and chose Steam.

What are you talking about? He's saying they promised a PUBLIC drm-free release then turned around and said sorry guys, Steam only for the public. How was the first promise not a lie? Nobody even cares if they'd put it on Steam too, they did hint at that possibility. But the mere possibility turned into the primary release method and the only version that will be supported fully.

Their excuses are laughable too, nobody expected them to have their own backend created to handle sharing content or auto updating. They didn't promise it and therefor also didn't budget it. It's out of the scope of the funded project. We just expected a modable game the community could handle like every other modable game. And they will, in and out of the Steam workshop. Loads of Skyrim mods aren't on the workshop due to file type and size restrictions after all. So it wasn't a matter of cost. Just their distribution and licensing deals that they conveniently avoided telling us weren't finalized when they were promising to have it DRM-free (again, for the public, not just backers). Similarly for turning the second city into extra DLC when they never mentioned anything like that during the campaign. I thought I was funding a game, with a stretch goal of a second city for that same game. That's not the case anymore, regardless of what I'd get as a backer. Anyway, no reason to repeat my whole previous post.

 

[Ninja Destroyer]

And the Check point system it at 15 minute intervals.

Hopefully modders will fix it, and make it customizable for player. I'm not save scummer, but I like when I have a choice when I can do it. It's as simple as that. As for the loot, I have no problem with it.

 

[Roguey]

I don't see that as a lie. They could have gone with multiple digital distribution platforms with DRM and chose Steam.

What are you talking about? He's saying they promised a PUBLIC drm-free release then turned around and said sorry guys, Steam only for the public. How was the first promise not a lie?

The Kickstarter backers are the public. And you do get the DRM-free release from their website. They only omitted the part where it was backers-only.

 

[Cassidy]

The way they've handled the whole thing makes me think it will end up being at best some RPG-lite for casual iPad gamers.

Don't bet on multiplatform kickstarters being anything but exactly what is usually expected from the other platform it is catered to besides PCs. You're essentially betting twice by backing a multiplatform project, with the extra bet having even smaller odds of ending even "good for what it is", let alone good, than the other.

 

[almondblight]

It seems odd to me, someone not backing a project because their friend might not want to in the future.

They might have backed it anyway, but that doesn't mean that they don't have a reason to be pissed. I bet most backers would have backed the game without Berlin, but that doesn't mean that telling people now that they'd have to buy it separately would be fine.

I don't see that as a lie. They could have gone with multiple digital distribution platforms with DRM and chose Steam.

Like Origin? I seriously doubt other DRM platforms were ever in consideration. Anyway, in update 49 is that they went with Steam because of the service that it provides (and again, there were hints of this excuse in the original campaign). Then they tell us in update 50 that it's because of their contract. We could all come up with ways to make what they wrote technically true, but it strains the imagination to believe that they weren't aware of how people would take it.

 

[Al3xand3r]

I don't see that as a lie. They could have gone with multiple digital distribution platforms with DRM and chose Steam.

What are you talking about? He's saying they promised a PUBLIC drm-free release then turned around and said sorry guys, Steam only for the public. How was the first promise not a lie?

The Kickstarter backers are the public. And you do get the DRM-free release from their website. They only omitted the part where it was backers-only.

No, the Kickstarter backers aren't "the public", yes, they did omit that it was backers-only, as I said, hence they lied about that and lied about the second city even after knowing people's feelings about DLC since they proposed to make a lesser part of the game, the Jake character stuff, DLC for anyone but backers and the backers still asked them not to and instead make everything available to everyone out of the box and they accepted, so yes, people do things for others, and fund projects for more than just their own rewards, as hard as that is to believe for some people here who ridicule the idea.

 

[Cyberarmy]

The primary loot players collect during a run in pen&paper comes in the form of data stolen from computers, certified credsticks, telesma (in monty haul campaigns) and the fee from their Johnson.

Is lootless a streamlining over "traditional" CRPGS? Unquestionably. But it is keeping in the conventions set forth by the setting.

This.

My only gripes about SRR are non existant ammo types, non-persistent bodies and lack of bloodshed :/ for now though maybe I'll add more after playing the game. I probably going to hate not creating a full runner party but mods/editors are for times like these.

 

[dnf]

You're missing the real implications of this whole SR:R debacle. Nowhere in their communication has a DRM-free version been promised to non-backers.

 

[dnf]

Finally a good kickstarter thread.

 

[Scruffy]

So, is it really incline if the answer is still “mods will fix it”?

 

[aris]

Haha! The KS-butthurt has begun! Who ever saw that coming?

The codex has been thoroughly trolled.

 

[Commissar Draco]

So, is it really incline if the answer is still “mods will fix it”?

Pirates will if game will be popular enough.

 

[Al3xand3r]

Haha! The KS-butthurt has begun! Who ever saw that coming?

The codex has been thoroughly trolled.

Why act stupid? Just as when you buy a game that disappoints you, some games will disappoint you after funding them. In this one aspect it's no different and not directed to kickstarter as a whole (though personally I have decided to stop supporting kickstarter for other reasons, but not stop supporting crowdfunding as a whole, though I assume you're talking about the latter and just name kickstarter as the more prominent form of it) just as a given bad game isn't suddenly like every game released. People are aware of the risks and nobody pretends to know for a fact that everything they backed will turn out to be a dreamy game (or whatever kind of project). This however (in my opinion, since again I don't consider the LoE and EC issues important, only the changes happening to Shadowrun Returns) doesn't so much have to do with the game's quality which is always subjective and can't actually be promised, but broken factual promises about distribution methods and what the base game would include (no matter how badly some people deny it by arguing over semantics despite clear intentions). Hell, I might have still backed the game if they had been up front about how it would be, ie, primarily a Steam release and with DLC in mind. It's their dishonesty I care about, though I also have doubts about the game's quality given the apparent mismanagement going on over there. Also, there's no butthurt, I got my refund anyway, it just would have been nice to see this handled better so going from mild excitement over the potential to disappointment certainly may lead to some strong words in some people's posts, that doesn't mean they'll lose any sleep over it. Still, the major issues I'm sure I won't have with the other projects I've backed, bigger and smaller. I already have one nice game I funded, FTL. There are successful and not so successful projects happening all the time so I'm not sure what sudden change you see occurring just out of this report.

 

[Quigs]

Hi.

Bullshit.

If you use them on another run afterwards, you generate another paper trail that can be linked to you which will eventually come and bite you in the ass.

So Lone Star, after investing money, could possibly find out that the ammo taken from them was used again later? Brilliant. You're clearly not understanding the universe where the cops solve flashy crimes that get their contracts renewed, and distance themselves from anything that can muddy their rep. Even if the cops *do* track down the runners, what are they gonna do, kill them twice as hard?

Shadowrun has *always* worked off the loot mechanic, because equipment is fucking expensive.

For those unfamiliar, loot to magic users, for the most part, is practically useless. Once you've got a decent set of armor and maybe some accessories, you're done. To boot, you can get that out of CharGen. From then on, almost everything you do will be an advancement using experience points, or Karma, as it's called in game. Even magical items require you to spend Karma to bind with them before using. Spells? Karma. Increasing stats? Karma. Conjuring an Ally Spirit? Karma.

For non magic users however, almost every advancement is going to be with cash, or nuyen, except you're getting paid as much as the mage, and you can't exactly trade your karma for his cash. So your upgrades tend to be looting what you can find. Blow the head off a a Red Samurai? Take his corpse to your trusted Street Doc who's going to scrub any signs of it's origin and implant the decedant's cyberware into you, possibly cutting you a deal if you sell him your now used gear. Kill a sniper? Free gun! Geeked a Rigger? Free drones! Black ICe'd a hacker? The corpse slumped in his old apartment now has a wiz cyberdeck awaiting you. Here, let's take a look at the classes you can play as.

• Mage
• Street Samurai
• Decker
• Shaman
• Rigger
• Physical Adept

Street Samurai, Decker, Rigger, and to a limited extent, PhysAd, have now had their major way of character advancement removed because coding a loot system is hard.
But everything's okay, right?

 

[tuluse]

Street Samurai, Decker, Rigger, and to a limited extent, PhysAd, have now had their major way of character advancement removed because coding a loot system is hard.
But everything's okay, right?

Their character advancement comes from gear, not specifically how the gear is acquired.

I'm sort of glad a developer is breaking free from some too common RPG tropes even if they're doing it for the wrong reasons.

 

[Ulminati]

Hi.

Bullshit.

Guess you didn't play a lot of pen & paper. Or at least not with halfway entertaining DMs or on Dumpshock.

Blow the head off a a Red Samurai? Take his corpse to your trusted Street Doc who's going to scrub any signs of it's origin and implant the decedant's cyberware into you, possibly cutting you a deal if you sell him your now used gear.

Tanamous says hello.

Kill a sniper? Free gun!

Better hope you don't go up against that corp again. because they'll have the gun on record. And they love going after repeat offenders.

Geeked a Rigger? Free drones!

My last character got us all killed because I couldn't resist the temptation of hacking a ruthetium covered mini-blimp with a built in sniper rifle loaded with APDS rounds. Turns out there was a seperate, physical tracker that led the bad guys straight to me when I flew my new acquisition in for an overhaul.

Black ICe'd a hacker? The corpse slumped in his old apartment now has a wiz cyberdeck awaiting you.

assuming you can find his pysical location and he doesn't have angry friends waiting for someone dumb enough to show up at the scene.



Jesus christ you must've had unimaginative GMs. Loot comes from the fixer because that's the way you're least lightly to have your greed bite you in the ass so hard it leaves imprints good enough to plan dental surgery from.

 

[Spectacle]

So your upgrades tend to be looting what you can find. Blow the head off a a Red Samurai? Take his corpse to your trusted Street Doc who's going to scrub any signs of it's origin and implant the decedant's cyberware into you, possibly cutting you a deal if you sell him your now used gear. Kill a sniper? Free gun! Geeked a Rigger? Free drones! Black ICe'd a hacker? The corpse slumped in his old apartment now has a wiz cyberdeck awaiting you. Here, let's take a look at the classes you can play as.

A sufficiently skilled Game Master can run Dungeons & Dragons with any system and setting.

 

[The Vanished One]

Was there even a sizable minority that believed they were buying unbreakable promises on Kickstarter, and thought the system guaranteed 100% satisfaction?

Kickstarter sells dreams. VD said it better a while ago. The people that sell you the dream may be as enthusiastic about it as you are. It doesn't mean their dream, when they try to materialize it, is miraculously exempt from the infinite problems that plague any and all projects; first of all, failure to predict expenses, and running over budget.

And when all the money is gone, to release the game, you may need a publisher, and the game may turn out unfinished, buggy, and fall short of expectations.

Compromises may have to be made. Just like in the Old Days™.

(But in the Old Days implementation of savegames seemed more like a matter of design, not a daunting technical task. And I could've patched Dark Souls by downloading and running an executable, rather than bothering with GFWL or Steam.)

Whenever someone needs money, they need hype throughout, whether they're promising the Future of Gaming, or, as it's in fashion nowadays, the past. Do you believe anyone can deliver as much as they promise just because they said so on a crowd funding platform?

And yet, for all my cynicism and told-you-so attitude, I still like being offered the unprecedented chance to pay a price of admission to vote in advance for the game I'd like to be made. I backed Torment after barely reading anything about it on its KS page -- the name alone was enough for me. I expect trouble and delays, and I would rather accept a publisher, "crowdfunding spirit" notwithstanding, if it was for the best. If the game turns out far below expectations, I'll be a bit disappointed, and spend my money somewhere else next time. In life you sometimes gamble and lose.

 

[Al3xand3r]

Was there even a sizable minority that believed they were buying unbreakable promises on Kickstarter, and thought the system guaranteed 100% satisfaction?

Do you believe anyone can deliver as much as they promise just because they said so on a crowd funding platform?

I didn't believe either, I didn't have to believe that to pledge, much like you, I didn't have to believe that to ask for my refund after some of these news and I don't have to believe the projects I didn't ask a refund from will deliver 100% for me not to do that. I'm not sure what your point is. Anyone unhappy enough to rant over such developments must have clearly been a gullible fool? Or what?

 

[Stabwound]

I certainly hope that inXile and Obsidian deliver well on their games. You kind of have to expect amateur/indie game developers to fuck up something like this, but big guys have experienced project managers and should hopefully be able to budget better. I really don't have a lot of faith in many of the indie guys; even the Shadowrun guys were shovelware devs until now. It became painfully obvious that they got WAY more money than they expected and never intended to make a game of this scale. It's a shame that they're starting to fuck up, because the game was looking very promising.

If inXile/Double Fine/Obsidian fails to deliver I think that will be about the end of crowdfunding.

 

[General Maxson]

If inXile/Double Fine/Obsidian fails to deliver I think that will be about the end of crowdfunding.

Well, at least on a larger scale where games get more than 1 million.

 

[Davaris]

If inXile/Double Fine/Obsidian fails to deliver I think that will be about the end of crowdfunding.

Don't know about Double Fine, but ObsidianinXile Corp are too big to fail.


People can prevent Kickstarter dramas, if they remember this simple phrase:

"No working RPG engine, no donation."

 

[The Vanished One]

I'm not sure what your point is.

Just that setbacks and compromises are unsurprising and rage over matters of principle (that KS devs must be free of publisher influence, that everything they release must be DRM free, etc.) is useless. I'm being preachy though, and perhaps as Roguey said it's all a storm in a teacup.