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Game News Kickstarter Drama: Conquistador, Shadowrun and Eisenwald

Monty

Arcane
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Mar 24, 2012
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Grognardia
I think the Monty - Infinitron solution, as it shall be called, is a good one. The only sticking point is on how you decide whether that alpha is sufficiently advanced to justify the release of the final incentive funds.

Well, check out Wasteland 2's gameplay video. That's not even an alpha - it's pre-alpha. If it plays as it good as it looks like it plays, I would release funds for that.
Hmm, then I am curious for examples that would fail Monty - Infinitron rule. I think both Conquistadors and our beta would pass it :)
Well, we had slightly different ideas. Voting when an 'alpha' is released would pick up the obvious vaporware and scams like 'RPG camp' or whatever. So it's better than the existing situation. My idea was rather to wait until commercial release to penalise those who break promises such as introducing DRM. Anyway, time will tell how things pan out. But that's why it's an interesting period because of this sudden volume of games on kickstarter, both small and large. In some sense both backers and devs are experimenting and I hope there are more successes than disappointments so backers keep supporting indies.
 

tuluse

Arcane
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Jul 20, 2008
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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
All this 20% thing would accomplish would be to raise the amount asked for by 20% and remove money from the development for the games that aren't scams.
 

crakkie

Arcane
Joined
Nov 20, 2004
Messages
1,608
Location
Louisiana
Crowd sourcing project management would be a nightmare. Jesus I can't stand it when I have more than 1 PM, and now this solution is to put it in the hands of group of thousands, possibly with opposing voting blocs, ideologically driven groups, selfish groups that want it released as an alpha because they want it as soon as possible, shitstarters and demagogues...

And withholding until development is finished makes no damn sense. They're asking for money because they need money for development. What this would amoount to is that they have to go get a business loan, which they would have gotten in the first place if they could, develop the game, release it, and hope they've kept the backers happy enough so they can get their ks money and pay back their loan. Or I guess just not eat and sleep on the street until they release.
 

Monty

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Grognardia
The idea is not to withhold it all until development. The idea is to withhold a small %, whether 5% or 20% or whatever, just so there is a financial bonus if promises made in the kickstarter campaign are met.

Wow, so harsh, instead of 100k funding with no strings attached you get 90k with a 10k bonus if you deliver. They'll have to "sleep on the street until they release".

It was just an idea to address some of these problems, as an alternative to the extra approval process and bureaucracy others proposed.
 

Jasede

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I think in general we're all aware we're just paying for dreams. For a chance. There's no obligation to deliver, no contract, nothing. Until a legal framework is set we're just basically buying lottery tickets.

To be fair, nobody ever said we weren't.
 

almondblight

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2004
Messages
2,624
How about gaming journalists do their damn jobs and help worthwhile games get alpha funded as well as making sure that good indie devs make enough when a game is released to support their next project.
 

uaciaut

Augur
Joined
Feb 18, 2013
Messages
505
Definitely had some doubts about how small-time companies would be able to absorb funding that goes over their predictions properly and whether they'd be able to discipline themselves enough to not overextend with how they spend their shit. Obsidian and inXile have some leeway because they're bigger/more known companies and they have dealt with big projects before that had a huge funding. Someone mentioned banner saga and i thought that was a perfect example of overfeeding a company that was too small to properly react to that with funds. (which makes me wonder even more how the hell do those tabletop games do SO well and what do their creators do with the money).

Anyway i'll withhold any opinions on these projects (especially since i didn't fund any of them though i was pretty bent on getting shadowrun and still am) till they actually come out. I think that would be the best time to say whether or not they were successful or not ;)
 
Self-Ejected

HobGoblin42

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As long as those small developers have some people with work experience from professional studios, they should know how to spend this extra money wisely (high quality artworks, better writing, good voice over, etc.)
But I would be worried about those developers without any professional background. That's why I always look for any information about the key people in KS projects first. That's the most relevant info beside the pitch itself. The guys from Banner Saga, for example, all have a professional background and I am sure they know what they are doing.
 

Angthoron

Arcane
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
13,056
By the way, to the devs reading this - a suggestion: Once your projects are delivered, consider taking one or two of your core team members, and buy them some project management training, so the people that are supposed to be in charge of actually MAKING the games will know all the shitty details of finances and planning.

Do NOT, really, do NOT outsource this to "this guy that was in business school", and do NOT trust it to the suits to know it for you. You might get a publisher deal, and a publisher might bring in a manager, who will start telling you to do all sorts of outrageous shit, because the manager has learned things about mass products and maximized profits, and you're making a "niche" game so you'll end up fucked and pressured by the publisher. Make a manager or two of your own, like, preferably with certification so you can tell publisher suits to GTFO, but even uncertified manager is better than either people that have no idea, or about people that only have an idea about how to push mass sales.
 

Luzur

Good Sir
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Feb 12, 2009
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Swedish Empire
Allt åt helvete.

Actually...

Shadowrun: Steam would have been my choice anyway.
Eisenwald: Sucks to run out of money, but what are you gonna do. At least they're set on finishing the game.
Conquistador: I wouldn't even trust a Dane with my... shoehorn. But still, I understand why they made the move. It makes sense from a business perspective. I never backed them anyway so what do I care, really. I'll get the game if I hear it's good.

Allt är Skit.

their "producer" is a wealthy Russian businessman

so i guess the Russian mob got their interest in this game too?

when ever Steam/other Always Online distribution channels is mentioned i always begin planning to find a TPB version of the game.
 

Reapa

Doom Preacher
Joined
Jul 10, 2009
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Germany
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/publisher-exploiting-an-obsidian-kickstarter.76198/page-8#post-2289687
Sep 30, 2012 #182
Reply
Back then I suggested to stop procrastinating and do something other than expecting wonders coming from Kickstarter.
tuluse:
Reapa, I have no idea what your position is anymore, but kickstarter is the greatest weapon we have against the decline.

Yes, communism is the best weapon against capitalism. But it's not the better solution. (Better start explaining before "the slow ones" start asking)

1. The parallels:
a) Crowd funding = communism (this requires step by step analysis because there's a lot of confused people out there)
b) Big publishers = capitalism (for obvious reasons)

2. The step by step analysis:
step one: who has the initiative? (meaning who will start the process) -> volunteers (from the masses for the masses)
step two: who pays? -> the masses
step three: who decides what will be done? (features, form, content) -> the collective (since devs ideally didn't finish the game before the went asking for money on kickstarter they should be very interested in what the people want them to promise and produce)
step four: draw conclusion

3.0. The obvious but somehow overlooked system flaws:

3.1. Crowd funding:
a) The masses don't seem to have a structured priority list (if you invest money in a game with the main objective to bring down DRM ideology, you should probably instead go buy some goats to fuck like all other extremist activists)
b) The masses don't know who should do it so they employ the first volunteer (more disorganized in following up on something you really want, you cannot be)
c) Your money even though spent won't work for your goal alone (the devs will take your money and do stuff to it, stuff you don't want to know about and you shouldn't keep asking)
d) The masses are not sure (look at people arguing whether saving should be done by checkpoints like in a fucking race or at the leisure of the player like in any reasonable rpg [excluded are of course dungeon crawlers that save only on exit - as if that would stop anyone from save scumming but that's a different subject])
e) feel free to add flaws as i think that these are already enough
f) summary: you don't know what you want, you don't care who does it, you don't know and care how it's going to be done and expect shit to magically work because you paid for it, tottaly overlooking that paying for something only really works in capitalism and blindly brute forcing it in the exact opposite production and distribution system. (people who have lots of money do that because they did something right financially speaking at least at one point in time)

3.2. Publisher interference:
a) While publishers do not seem to care about quality they do seem to manage to stay in business. How is that possible? Easy, by exploiting devs, minimal expenses, maximal prices for a wide variety of costumers. -> they do care about quality as long as it's just above the minimum expected by the sheeple. So if the sheeple care mostly about graphics and awesome effects with close to none complexity and self involvement in the actual gameplay, then these publishers must flog the devs into delivering said products within a reasonable timeline, again to minimize expenses.
b) which good game made enough money not only to save its devs from going bankrupt but to even finance good sequels without getting dumbed down with each new title?
c) I rest my case.

4. Conclusion: -> good games are pieces of art and art... art doesn't sell. (the none believers should search their walls and their neighbors' walls for mona lisas)

I have returned after a year with this more or less insightful post to tell you this: It is now time to panic. Feel free to do so within reasonable margins.
 

Monty

Arcane
Joined
Mar 24, 2012
Messages
1,582
Location
Grognardia
good games are pieces of art and art... art doesn't sell. (the none believers should search their walls and their neighbors' walls for mona lisas)
Don't look at me, I've been trying to buy a Mona Lisa for years and have saved up the $400m by cutting back on nights out... is it my fault those damn Frogs refuse to sell?
 

Zeriel

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2012
Messages
13,963
So what you're trying to say is that we should Kickstart a Mona Lisa?
 

Mastermind

Cognito Elite Material
Patron
Bethestard
Joined
Apr 15, 2010
Messages
21,144
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Kickstarter games are paid for by the customer, not "the masses", just like publisher games. The reason we're getting shit games is because gaming became so wildly popular that big budget games have to have mass appeal. But that doesn't mean niche kickstarter products specifically targeted at us won't be any good.
 

Reapa

Doom Preacher
Joined
Jul 10, 2009
Messages
2,340
Location
Germany
In other words, you understood nothing regardless of the extra low "difficulty level" or you choose not to acknowledge the truth as a very passive form of panicking.
 

Reapa

Doom Preacher
Joined
Jul 10, 2009
Messages
2,340
Location
Germany
@ Mastermind: Publishers will not rely on your donations, thus making your whole argument invalid.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,957
-Interrupts Reapa multiposting-

I had something deep and insightful to add to this conversation, sadly it got lost somewhere in my mind.
 

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