KickStarter Kingdom Come: Deliverance - Dan Vavra's medieval chad simulator

[OctavianRomulus]

Ok, when are we getting a sequel already? It's been three years.

 

[SlamDunk]

Ok, when are we getting a sequel already? It's been three years.

The first year and a half was presumably spent solely on downloadable content and modding support. Then came COVID-19, which might have considerably slowed things down.

 

[HoboForEternity]

beta with the realistic forest ran better than the final game for me but final game has a lot of shit going on; more npcs, simulation systems etc. maybe beta was "lightweight" with only high quality gfx?

This, it's probably closer to those engine visual demo instead of real game, aka game mechanics, AI, such aren't implemented yet.

Smejki did explain few hundred pages ago renderring NPCs with 16 slots of equipped items is really taxing for the CPU, and other stuff. With everythjng implemented, it's probably impossible to run it at that fidelity unless you only target people with threadrippers and xx80 /90 GPU

 

[Gerrard]

In Teresa's quest I killed 6 people. That's 6 more than Henry can manage in the opening section.
That's in case you were thinking Vavra is going to inject some woke shit into the next game.

Also, the camera in the mine scared the shit out of me.

 

[Paul_cz]

I would not expect announcement anytime soon:

However, CEO Martin Frývaldský reveals that the company did much better than they thought a year ago. "The impact of covid-19 has been positive for us in terms of revenue, however blasphemous it may sound, because of course no one wanted a pandemic," said Warhorse Studios chief.

However, Warhorse's position is different from, for example, Šebor with his Euro Truck Sim 2, which continuously asks players for additional purchases, such as new routes or tuning of their cars. In contrast, the historic game Kingdom Come: Deliverance from the Warhorse workshop celebrated its third birthday, its last addition was released in 2019 and the story is thus closed to the studio. For the future and further financial injection, the release of a new title is essential. But this shows that pandemic revenue doping is a double-edged sword for game studios. Just as their customers sit at home trapped at a computer, so do the developers because of the covid-19.

"We have been at the home office non-stop since October," says Frývaldský from Warhorse. "And its impact on creative digital work is fatal," he adds.
According to him, it worked for a short time, last year's spring lockdown was managed by the team very well, the beginning of autumn as well. But the longer programmers, screenwriters, graphic designers and other professions can't meet at the same table to create a new game, the more its development suffers. "The spirit of the team working on something live together simply can't be replaced by anything," laments Frývaldský. "The necessary slowdown is simply there," he says, adding that the covid has brought pleasant revenue growth, but also hidden costs. "Work takes longer, each step takes more time, everything shifts. You will just have to wait longer for the news from us."

https://forbes.cz/game-on-kdo-si-hr...erni-byznys-v-karantene-prerostl-pet-miliard/

 

[Smejki]

beta with the realistic forest ran better than the final game for me but final game has a lot of shit going on; more npcs, simulation systems etc. maybe beta was "lightweight" with only high quality gfx?

This, it's probably closer to those engine visual demo instead of real game, aka game mechanics, AI, such aren't implemented yet.

The later alphas/beta were already a game, only limited in scope and lacking some features (some of which required quite a lot of processing power). In other words it wasn't a graphics tech focused demo. There were dozens of NPCs instead of some 2000. Number of items and clothing assets was extremely limited. 3 villages (in beta) as opposed to several bigger towns amd large villages. Crime system et al. weren't implemented at all (only partially in beta iirc).
Regarding enviro: the alphas also served as a test for our graphics department's ability to fill the entire map in time and with certain level of detail. As a result we had to optimize the assets, change asset density and also automate more parts of the production process.
Al in all late alpha ran about 20 fps on my working gig. As the game grew in scope the game could easily drop to 10 fps before we started optimizing (and that still wasn't a feature-complete and content-complete game). I remember quite vividly that unoptimized Rattay ran some 5 fps with heavy rendering issues, before crashing the game after a minute or two. And that was even before all the people in Rattay got their daycycles. They were just standing there in idle. casually killing my computer.

Smejki did explain few hundred pages ago renderring NPCs with 16 slots of equipped items is really taxing for the CPU, and other stuff. With everything implemented, it's probably impossible to run it at that fidelity unless you only target people with threadrippers and xx80 /90 GPU

The layered clothing systems is very heavy on raycasting which is very taxing on the CPU and the way we layered and instanced all the models and materials also needed a lot of V/RAM.

 

[cvv]

Regarding enviro: the alphas also served as a test for our graphics department's ability to fill the entire map in time and with certain level of detail. As a result we had to optimize the assets, change asset density and also automate more parts of the production process.

You reckon the photorealistic forests from the first alpha would run on modern high-end PCs or next gen consoles? I mean the actual forests in KCD are the best looking vegetation in any game anyway but still, the early "unoptimised" KCD looked just insane.

Spoiler

 

[Harthwain]

You reckon the photorealistic forests from the first alpha would run on modern high-end PCs or next gen consoles? I mean the actual forests in KCD are the best looking vegetation in any game anyway but still, the early "unoptimised" KCD looked just insane.

Photorealism is always fools' gold though.

Early in game's life hardware requirements are going to limit how many people can play your game (which is important, if you want to keep developing games). Later the visuals are going to get outdated. And no matter how good the game may look at the moment, nothing can replace the game's mechanisms. So I am always if favour of stylized graphics - it's both less demanding (requiring less man-hours to get done and less powerful machines to run) and it will remain good for years to come, leaving you with more time to focus on the essence of the game.

 

[Paul_cz]

So I am always if favour of stylized graphics

I don't want every game to look like fucking Diablo 3 though.
Realistic/photorealistic artstyle is much preferable to me. And especially when talking about a game like KCD. KCD already looks so good that it will always look good, it's not like the early 3D graphics of Quake et. al. that aged horribly.

 

[Smejki]

Regarding enviro: the alphas also served as a test for our graphics department's ability to fill the entire map in time and with certain level of detail. As a result we had to optimize the assets, change asset density and also automate more parts of the production process.

You reckon the photorealistic forests from the first alpha would run on modern high-end PCs or next gen consoles? I mean the actual forests in KCD are the best looking vegetation in any game anyway but still, the early "unoptimised" KCD looked just insane.

Spoiler

Can't answer because I honestly don't know all the factors in play. Performance alone is just one part of it.
I just recalled one more issue we fought over quite a bit and that was overly complicated geometry, which caused many issues to navigation, and the visual "business" of this dense vegetation, which rendered the forests not-well-playable. Which is a hindrance for video game of course.

 

[cvv]

how good the game may look at the moment, nothing can replace the game's mechanisms. So I am always if favour of stylized graphics

Stylized graphics is only good for games that don't rely on immersion. With realistic, ultra-larpy games like KCD or RDR2 stylized Borderlands-type graphic would completely ruin the vibe.

 

[HoboForEternity]

how good the game may look at the moment, nothing can replace the game's mechanisms. So I am always if favour of stylized graphics

Stylized graphics is only good for games that don't rely on immersion. With realistic, ultra-larpy games like KCD or RDR2 stylized Borderlands-type graphic would completely ruin the vibe.

Golden rule seems to be like this: the less you have to suspend disbelief, the less it have to look realistic.

 

[Harthwain]

I don't want every game to look like fucking Diablo 3 though.

Not sure why you say that. Stylization allows for a wide variety of styles. You have Darkest Dungeon, XIII (2003), Evil Genius 1, Battle Brothers, Rimworld, Stoneshard... Just to name a few.

Realistic/photorealistic artstyle is much preferable to me. And especially when talking about a game like KCD. KCD already looks so good that it will always look good, it's not like the early 3D graphics of Quake et. al. that aged horribly.

I am willing to concede that some 3D games aged better than others (Vampire: The Masquerade - Redemption comes to mind, personally).

Stylized graphics is only good for games that don't rely on immersion. With realistic, ultra-larpy games like KCD or RDR2 stylized Borderlands-type graphic would completely ruin the vibe.

Good point.

Then again, I really like games that rely on other means than photoralistic graphics to make them feel immersive. The best way to achieve that - in my opinion - is via adding simulation elements to the game. The main reason why I loved Operation Flashpoint: Cold War Crisis was because it was very in-depth simulation, not because it was pretty. Same goes for War Thunder. The biggest satisfaction is managing to land your plane safely at base, despite having damaged rudder and leaking fuel tank, all in full simulation mode.

 

[Gerrard]

how good the game may look at the moment, nothing can replace the game's mechanisms. So I am always if favour of stylized graphics

Stylized graphics is only good for games that don't rely on immersion. With realistic, ultra-larpy games like KCD or RDR2 stylized Borderlands-type graphic would completely ruin the vibe.

Golden rule seems to be like this: the less you have to suspend disbelief, the less it have to look realistic.

The more realistic you try to make it look, the more every flaw sticks out ruining the suspension of disbelief and immersion. Uncanny valley applies everywhere.
If I'm walking through this great looking forest and I get stuck on a fallen branch or a deer spawns out of thin air 3 meters in front of me, that's not very immersive.

Characters and their animations definitely do not look "so good that they will always look good". They look pretty derpy even now.

 

[Paul_cz]

The main reason why I loved Operation Flashpoint: Cold War Crisis was because it was very in-depth simulation, not because it was pretty.

Pretty or not, you wouldn't be as immersed in it if it looked like Borderlands. Graphics and artstyle needs to complement the theme and content of the game. KCD goes for realistic time travel real world setting, so thank god Warhorse is about photorealism. Though I suspect Vávra dislikes stylized graphics in AAA games in general, all his favourite games go for realism (Shenmue, Red Dead, Wildlands..).

 

[cvv]

KCD goes for realistic time travel real world setting, so thank god Warhorse is about photorealism.

That said any developer going for realism is making their job much, much harder. Realistic environments are doable even for smaller devs but realistic people, animals and animations is a totally different ballpark, especially in this day and age of ultra hi-res assets.

RDR2 pulled it off but that game took like 2000 people, 8 years and a 100 million dorra to make. And ofc with realistic graphics once you set a certain standard people start comparing everything to it. Game has worse characters and animations than RDR2 or TLOU2? Shit, unplayable, refund.

 

[SlamDunk]

I suspect Vávra dislikes stylized graphics in AAA games in general, all his favourite games go for realism (Shenmue, Red Dead, Wildlands..).

He seems to be all for realism... and the more detailed the better:

https://rpgcodex.net/forums/posts/7080856

 

[SlamDunk]

Smejki interviewed about scripting.

https://www.welcometothejungle.com/cs/articles/skripter-warhorse-rozhovor

Google Translate seems to do a good enough job?

 

[cvv]

Seems to do a nice job?

One of those sneak peeks into the nuts and bolts of vidya development. The more you read things like this the more you appreciate any games are being conceived, designed and finished at all. Goddamn black magic mang.

 

[OctavianRomulus]

I'm sure I don't have to tell any of you this but good graphics won't save a game from sucking. To this day there is still no better RPG than Gothic 2. KCD comes pretty close to being in that range but you can tell they didn't manage to fit in all the complexity they wanted. The first quest literally has timed objectives but you don't see any of those later on.

 

[cvv]

I'm sure I don't have to tell any of you this but good graphics won't save a game from sucking. To this day there is still no better RPG than Gothic 2. KCD comes pretty close to being in that range but you can tell they didn't manage to fit in all the complexity they wanted. The first quest literally has timed objectives but you don't see any of those later on.

Not sure what you're smoking but KCD is more complex than p. much any non-indie RPG made in this century and there are timed quests and objectives throughout the game.

 

[Smejki]

I'm just gonna shamelessly use this space to promote our former cinematic lead's personal one-man pet project

 

[cvv]

I'm just gonna shamelessly use this space to promote our former cinematic lead's personal one-man pet project

Looks p. gud.

Btw is your former cinematic lead the person chiefly responsible for the awesome cutscenes in KCD like "forging the sword"? If so, that's a big loss for Warhose.

 

[SlamDunk]

If so, that's a big loss for Warhose.

Well, we don't know that yet, now do we? Heck... the current cinematic lead could be as good or even better than Klekner.

 

[Smejki]

The current cinematic lead is Petr Pekař who co-led in late stages and led the team during DLCs. Did you notice any drop or shift in quality and/or style back then?
Don't forget our art leads are also part of the process to make it look gud.