KickStarter Kingdom Come: Deliverance Pre-Release Thread [RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Excidium II]

What. Do you even know what that term means?

Something that only works when both parties are following the same set of rules and techniques in a controlled enviroment where nobody is trying to murder anyone. If it was a fighting game it'd make sense.

 

[Lyric Suite]

anyways

Well, looks like we are finally get something substantial to talk about with this beta. I won't try it myself since i never play a game unless it is finished, but i'll be curious to see what Codexers have to say about it.

 

[Excidium II]

I saw a gameplay video of a guy randomly murdering people to showcase the combat, made me wish the game had mechanics for tackling, grappling and throwing objects. Would look p. amusing specially against commoners trying to gtfo.

 

[cvv]

Well, looks like we are finally get something substantial to talk about with this beta. I won't try it myself since i never play a game unless it is finished, but i'll be curious to see what Codexers have to say about it.

As I said earlier this is not really a beta, they just extended the tech alpha by a few locations. The dialogs, voiceovers, faces and animations are still placeholder, AI is unfinished, NPCs are scarce and most of the core game like crafting, hunting, alchemy etc. is missing. Definitely wait till proper beta or the final release.

 

[Lyric Suite]

What. Do you even know what that term means?

Something that only works when both parties are following the same set of rules and techniques in a controlled enviroment where nobody is trying to murder anyone. If it was a fighting game it'd make sense.

The techniques in question were used by people who actually did try to murder each other for real. Do you think soldiers back then trained in this stuff only to swing their weapons randomly during actual combat?

Also, what we had in the alpha was just a training module, right? All they were trying to do was showcase their combat system, and a training ground was the most appropriate way to do that.

 

[Cadmus]

Aren't you czech?

I post on the RPG Codex, what are you talking about.

 

[Excidium II]

The techniques in question were used by people who actually did try to murder each other for real. Do you think soldiers back then trained in this stuff only to swing their weapons randomly during actual combat?

Or did they? Some basic things transfer but most of it seems about as representative of a real fight as those ninja skillz being taught in self-defense schools. It's even worse in the context of an armed fight where every contact is possibly lethal.

 

[Beowulf]

At least it requires more then LMB spam, which seems to be the meat of Bethesda's immersive combat approach.

 

[Cadmus]

The techniques in question were used by people who actually did try to murder each other for real. Do you think soldiers back then trained in this stuff only to swing their weapons randomly during actual combat?

Or did they? Some basic things transfer but most of it seems about as representative of a real fight as those ninja skillz being taught in self-defense schools. It's even worse in the context of an armed fight where every contact is possibly lethal.

I don't know man. I never fought with a sword but imagine running up to that guy with the defensive stance if you know shit. What're you even gonna do? He'll stab you through the neck before you get a chance to ask him if he likes Fallout 4. They must have been using a fighting style or technique.

 

[Excidium II]

Wait until he's busy dancing with someone else and stab his back. That's what I'd do anyway.

 

[Got bored and left]

The techniques in question were used by people who actually did try to murder each other for real. Do you think soldiers back then trained in this stuff only to swing their weapons randomly during actual combat?

Or did they? Some basic things transfer but most of it seems about as representative of a real fight as those ninja skillz being taught in self-defense schools. It's even worse in the context of an armed fight where every contact is possibly lethal.

Don't underestimate HEMA sources. To the best of my knowledge (no expert here, you'd have talk someone actually studying them for a proper overview), medieval manuals of armoured combat had extensive techniques for grappling, finishing people on the ground and stuff like that. They didn't teach ninja skills with a million pointless flourishes, but down to earth, practical stuff. Sure, it's never gonna be nice and neat like in the pretty pictures on the page when you have someone actively fighting against you, but basing a game's fighting system on historical sources like that is certainly way better than "hurr durr let's swing swords randomly" or following the example of over-choreographed crap like the Star Wars prequels.

 

[Excidium II]

It is better than that yes, still not realistic.

 

[Lyric Suite]

The techniques in question were used by people who actually did try to murder each other for real. Do you think soldiers back then trained in this stuff only to swing their weapons randomly during actual combat?

Or did they?

I guess all those training manuals they left around must have been written for shits and giggles.

I also assume all those l33t training ancient soldiers went through involved nothing more than awkwardly flailing their weapons around for hours on end.

 

[Lyric Suite]

It is better than that yes, still not realistic.

Well, why don't you tell us what realistic means then, because all historical sources seem to be rather specific on this subject.

 

[Cadmus]

It is better than that yes, still not realistic.

Well, why don't you tell us what realistic means then, because all historical sources seem to be rather specific on this subject.

He already told us - wait for the enemy to turn around and stab him in the back.
Excidium is a master strategist, if only you had a time machine to show all those shit-eating idiots how to fight properly.

 

[Excidium II]

If only you had a time machine to go back in time and witness actual deadly combat instead of relying on dubious historical records such as fencing manuals as representative of it.


Would be great if modern swordsmen tried to commit murder on the street as often as other martial artists, we'd have proper reference on liveleak of how much the techniques matter. At least in the case of recorded fights the things that end being decisive is speed, size and endurance (so training does help like I said) and not how many different ways of grappling or kicking the fighters know.

 

[cvv]

If only you had a time machine to go back in time and witness actual deadly combat instead of relying on dubious historical records such as fencing manuals as representative of it

And what are you relying on while spouting all this? What kind of special insight do you have that historians don't?

 

[Cadmus]

If only you had a time machine to go back in time and witness actual deadly combat instead of relying on dubious historical records such as fencing manuals as representative of it.


Would be great if modern swordsmen tried to commit murder on the street as often as other martial artists, we'd have proper reference on liveleak of how much the techniques matter. At least in the case of recorded fights the things that end being decisive is speed, size and endurance (so training matters but) and not how many different ways of grappling or kicking the fighters know.

Excidium better check if there isn't a fedora seed lodged in your hair somewhere.

Jesus, all the professionals everywhere ever get special training that pertains to their combat role - the police, the military and god knows who else. The technique matters. Watch any video of a trained guy in a street fight. It's especially nicely obvious in some dindu attacks, the trained guy can knock 2-3 of them before they pull their pants up.

 

[Tacgnol]

Would be great if modern swordsmen tried to commit murder on the street as often as other martial artists, we'd have proper reference on liveleak of how much the techniques matter. At least in the case of recorded fights the things that end being decisive is speed, size and endurance (so training matters) and not how many different ways of grappling or kicking the fighters know.

There was a thread a few weeks ago where we discussed the practicalities of kidnapping two swordsmen and forcing them to fight to the death.

We couldn't work out a viable plan.

 

[Excidium II]

If only you had a time machine to go back in time and witness actual deadly combat instead of relying on dubious historical records such as fencing manuals as representative of it.


Would be great if modern swordsmen tried to commit murder on the street as often as other martial artists, we'd have proper reference on liveleak of how much the techniques matter. At least in the case of recorded fights the things that end being decisive is speed, size and endurance (so training matters but) and not how many different ways of grappling or kicking the fighters know.

Excidium better check if there isn't a fedora seed lodged in your hair somewhere.

Why, because I don't see martial arts fights as representative of actual fighting? You oughta give a fedora to every martial arts practicioner cause that is the first thing a good master teaches to their pupils looking to become the ultimate streetfighter.

 

[Cadmus]

If only you had a time machine to go back in time and witness actual deadly combat instead of relying on dubious historical records such as fencing manuals as representative of it.


Would be great if modern swordsmen tried to commit murder on the street as often as other martial artists, we'd have proper reference on liveleak of how much the techniques matter. At least in the case of recorded fights the things that end being decisive is speed, size and endurance (so training matters but) and not how many different ways of grappling or kicking the fighters know.

Excidium better check if there isn't a fedora seed lodged in your hair somewhere.

Why, because I don't see martial arts fights as representative of actual fighting? You oughta give a fedora to every martial arts practicioner cause that is the first thing a good teacher teaches to their pupils looking to become the ultimate streetfighter.

Look, I don't know how much HEMA is a show and how much is it researched so my argument is that in general the technique is important for all the soldiers and it should become quickly apparent if you imagine having to actually fight an armored soldier while using your fedora tactics because you assume they were all total retards and you can just quickly run at them and do whatever.

 

[Tigranes]

It is better than that yes, still not realistic.

Well, why don't you tell us what realistic means then, because all historical sources seem to be rather specific on this subject.

He has no clue, he just likes to play Pig Socrates and exploit other people's willingness to explain and/or admit their incomplete knowledge

 

[Excidium II]

They would kick my ass because they are prepared for the situation, the techniques aren't as important as the conditioning and drilling.

Hell I've stressed in almost every post that I agree training matters. And that is true specially for armed combat since you only get one chance in the real deal. I just don't believe replicating maneuvers like KC combat does is realistic, considering our best reference from other martial arts.

 

[Excidium II]

It is better than that yes, still not realistic.

Well, why don't you tell us what realistic means then, because all historical sources seem to be rather specific on this subject.

He has no clue, he just likes to play Pig Socrates and exploit other people's willingness to explain and/or admit their incomplete knowledge

Realistic is something that tries to approximate reality as much as possible, don't you have a dictionary? KC combat isn't realistic if it stops at consulting people who practice a sport when attempting to portray actual combat.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

I don't know what Excidium's problem with KCD's combat is, but the arguments are weak. In any kind of professional/martial fighting, technique >>>>>> anything else. Only when the technique is roughly equal between the opponents do factors like speed, endurance, strength, size, etc come into play. For a good example of that, see the early days of Mixed Martial Arts, when Royce Gracie (a very mediocre relatively unathletic, small sized dude) dominated muscle bound behemoths with only superior technique. Now that everyone learns Brasilian Jui-Jitsu in MMA, things like strength and conditioning matter, because the technique is much more even across the sport.

Also, HEMA is pretty accurate stuff. Obviously it's not 100% accurate, as they use dull swords for safety and stuff like that, but it's as close as you can get to historical fighting short of killing each other. I watched a lot of their videos online, and if anything, those guys very often point out the myths and inaccuracies from ancient manuscripts and inexperienced practioners, because once you are out there practicing those moves and techniques in real life, it very quickly becomes obvious what works and what's bullshit. So if these guys like KCD's combat, I'd say it's probably really close to the real thing, within video game limitations.

Disclaimer: I haven't tried it myself yet, so for all I know, maybe I will hate it too once I try it. But from the videos, looks pretty neat, with everyone changing stances and guards, using different attacks and counter-attacks. That's way more complex than the typical button mashing crap in RPGs, so I don't see that as a bad thing in any way.