KickStarter Knights of the Chalice 2 Thread - Augury of Chaos

[Serus]

Has anyone beat the game? Looking at the global steam achievements is a rather depressing affair.

https://steamcommunity.com/stats/1233530/achievements

We did years ago with the hardcore backer version, not point hunting achievement in a game you already finished.

I played through three of the backer versions, and now through the Steam version for the achievements, because the game is just that much fun.

It's way more replayable than most roguelikes with their boring procedural shit. I can replay it at least one or two more times before I get bored with it.

Comparing this game to a RL is a bit unreasonable. Most RLs are single character where combat tactics are much simpler but on the other hand character building the interactions outside

Lets's see. In the case of maxed fireball it's a 10% increase in damage output from additional die. Then comes the + to DC = less chance for halving the damage through saves. However it might be relatively much more with spells that aren't maxed yet and less with some maxed high level spells. Also the DC increase can allow to land some status, fire evocation spells are mostly pure damage but some cold ones might have them.
Overall i think it is worth if you really want to be a dps wizard but on 1 feat/3 levels there are simply no way you can squeeze it without sacrificing something more important (initiativ, focus, etc...).

There was no + to DC from that feat (I checked earlier). Caster level doesn't figure directly into the DC calculation, it's different from spell level.

You are right of curse. Still, i think that it is worth taking as one of the first non-crucial feat if you really want to destroy things with spell damage. If you want a well rounded up caster you'd probably want a second spell school focus or extended spell range or something similar. It all really depends on number of feats at your disposal, so difficulty level + if human or not.

 

[Fireblade]

Yeah it's worth taking if you've got enough feats to take it, but for me it was one of the last ones I took towards the end of my game, and that was normal mode + human. So I can't see ever taking it in the harder difficulties.

 

[JarlFrank]

Comparing this game to a RL is a bit unreasonable.

I'm not comparing it to RLs I'm just saying challenging hand-made encounters are infinitely more replayable than procedural crap

 

[Serus]

Comparing this game to a RL is a bit unreasonable.

I'm not comparing it to RLs I'm just saying challenging hand-made encounters are infinitely more replayable than procedural crap

And we already had this discussion. There is a point somewhere between the two even for you. I hope. I really can' believe that you'd dismiss the improvement if KotC2 had some HAND-MADE (by the Man himself, with equal care) variations of certain encounters. But my beliefs have have been shattered many times on the Codex.

 

[Darth Canoli]

And we already had this discussion. There is a point somewhere between the two even for you. I hope. I really can' believe that you'd dismiss the improvement if KotC2 had some HAND-MADE (by the Man himself, with equal care) variations of certain encounters. But my beliefs have have been shattered many times on the Codex.

So, you're basically saying a game with 200% handcrafted content is better than one with 100% hand-crafted content?
Sure, hand-crafted combat made by competent/good/great/godly game designers is great.

Add 10% of procedural shit and the quality drops by 10% (at least).

 

[rojay]

Comparing this game to a RL is a bit unreasonable.

I'm not comparing it to RLs I'm just saying challenging hand-made encounters are infinitely more replayable than procedural crap

And we already had this discussion. There is a point somewhere between the two even for you. I hope. I really can' believe that you'd dismiss the improvement if KotC2 had some HAND-MADE (by the Man himself, with equal care) variations of certain encounters. But my beliefs have have been shattered many times on the Codex.

The DM tools let anyone modify encounters, right? If you're saying you're not interested unless Pierre does it, then ok. I'm sure there are people who could come up with interesting variations on the best combat encounters, but I can replay the current version quite happily, and who knows how long the game would still be in early access/beta if Pierre went back and fiddled?

 

[Darth Canoli]

The DM tools let anyone modify encounters, right? If you're saying you're not interested unless Pierre does it, then ok. I'm sure there are people who could come up with interesting variations on the best combat encounters, but I can replay the current version quite happily, and who knows how long the game would still be in early access/beta if Pierre went back and fiddled?

I was actually thinking about this.

With the new village content, you could just nerf combat xp by 60% (so you just get 40% xp) or even more and keep chapters 1 and two as they are or add some side content and then the pizarra fight from chapter 3 and a brand new chapter 3 and even expand afterward on a new adventure.

That's for someone wanting to build mostly a dungeon crawler adventure.

 

[Serus]

Comparing this game to a RL is a bit unreasonable.

I'm not comparing it to RLs I'm just saying challenging hand-made encounters are infinitely more replayable than procedural crap

And we already had this discussion. There is a point somewhere between the two even for you. I hope. I really can' believe that you'd dismiss the improvement if KotC2 had some HAND-MADE (by the Man himself, with equal care) variations of certain encounters. But my beliefs have have been shattered many times on the Codex.

The DM tools let anyone modify encounters, right? If you're saying you're not interested unless Pierre does it, then ok. I'm sure there are people who could come up with interesting variations on the best combat encounters, but I can replay the current version quite happily, and who knows how long the game would still be in early access/beta if Pierre went back and fiddled?

I wasn't saying anything about myself. The idea was that, hypothetically, variations would be in-game chosen randomly. I wasn't talking about alternative version of the whole module, Jarl should understand. But if someone made a revamp of the module in the future, that could be nice too, a mod of sorts. Why not.
Sure you can replay happily. I'm enjoying it too. The question however was, would you be even more happy replaying with alternative versions of encounters. There is already replay value in KotC2 thanks to many builds for individual characters and for the party, some c&c, even the difficulty options. But more would be even better.

As to the last question, no idea. And what if Pierre won 10 millions, bought a luxury yacht and took his wife on a 2 years cruise of the World? Or spend it all on luxury whores instead? Or even on luxury, imported roots?

 

[JarlFrank]

Someone needs to make a "Quest for Roots" module.

 

[Serus]

Comparing this game to a RL is a bit unreasonable.

I'm not comparing it to RLs I'm just saying challenging hand-made encounters are infinitely more replayable than procedural crap

I forgot to counter you with Battle Brothers' "procedural crap" which can produces better combat than the vast majority of hand-made crap. And it still has a couple of hand-made ones as well.
I'm not saying that many of KotC2 encounters aren't very well done and the best ones are great. It is a very good game after all.

 

[Dickie]

I can just imagine the random modifier table Pierre would make. There would be no "none" on the table and it'd all be stuff like "the room is on fire," "the room is full of acid," "you only get 2 party members," "enemy casters start on a ledge 50 ft above the party," etc. and it'd roll three times for each encounter.

 

[rojay]

I love Battle Brothers but the combat is much less complicated than KOTC2.

 

[JarlFrank]

Battle Brothers with hand-crafted maps and encounters would be so much better.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Comparing this game to a RL is a bit unreasonable.

I'm not comparing it to RLs I'm just saying challenging hand-made encounters are infinitely more replayable than procedural crap

While I like KotC2, I don't see it having same longevity for me as X-com and its various mods.

 

[Tweed]

Ahh finally, the perfect resolution. Now I can play!

 

[Serus]

Battle Brothers with hand-crafted maps and encounters would be so much better worse.

And wouldn't be Battle Brothers anymore. Jarl, consider this:
You can only a make limited amount of hand made encounters and even more limited numbers of high quality ones, those require time and effort to make. Right? You can only have a game with all hand-made encounters where there is a finite numbers of those. And if you want to have all encounters of high quality it has to be a relatively short game. Which means typical linear(-ish) combat-oriented crpg with a clearly defined end. Say... KotC2?
Battle Brothers is nothing like that. It's gameplay is not about following a linear story at all. There is no story. Imagine having to make literally thousands of encounters to give the same kind of gameplay. Impossible to do well. So you'd have to limit it greatly to a more linear experience. You'd have to change everything that is Battle Bother-ish in Battle Brothers and turn it into a linear KotC-like.
In the end it might become a better game, sure. But not a Battle Brothers game other than in name. You will kill it - ergo you are wrong in your post.

When you are at it, change all encounters in Pirates! or X-COM-likes and other similar games of all sorts, into hand made ones butchering those games in the process. Let's see how people who like those kind of games will be grateful to you.

[prepares snacks for a lynching]

 

[Serus]

I love Battle Brothers but the combat is much less complicated than KOTC2.

Complex != tactical or deep
For example, You can make a game with hundreds of units with very complex stats. However if they are all samey then it doesn't create more tactical options. Making only a few and simpler but different makes for better tactical game.
Why I am bringing it? Because 3/4 of KotC2 (and in general DnD) complexity is just fluff. Fluff is fun and can make a game a better experience but doesn't add anything more that the 1/4 already offers when it comes to tactical play.
Add to that the fact that some encounters in KotC2 have puzzle-like quality. While nothing wrong with puzzles - they aren't that "tactical". And finally the random element. It is one thing to manage it (both games do it) and another is having whole fights depending on it and no way to mitigate it (guess which game has it). The latter doesn't make good combat.
I honestly think BB combat is slightly better (Jarl will lynch me now) but KotC is very good as well.

 

[Darth Canoli]

I forgot to counter you with Battle Brothers' "procedural crap" which can produces better combat than the vast majority of hand-made crap. And it still has a couple of hand-made ones as well.
I'm not saying that many of KotC2 encounters aren't very well done and the best ones are great. It is a very good game after all.

The combat system is good, the difficulty is high enough and it's moddable, plus ,the art-style actually attracted modders but the procedural crap is what's holding it back from being a great game.

This and some bad design choices like the quest system, some monsters like wieldergangers and iffrits.

Seriously, you're just getting into the same fights over and over and their recent fortified villages don't really makes it better.
If it wasn't for modders, the game would be long dead.

 

[Serus]

I forgot to counter you with Battle Brothers' "procedural crap" which can produces better combat than the vast majority of hand-made crap. And it still has a couple of hand-made ones as well.
I'm not saying that many of KotC2 encounters aren't very well done and the best ones are great. It is a very good game after all.

The combat system is good, the difficulty is high enough and it's moddable, plus ,the art-style actually attracted modders but the procedural crap is what's holding it back from being a great game.

This and some bad design choices like the quest system, some monsters like wieldergangers and iffrits.

Seriously, you're just getting into the same fights over and over and their recent fortified villages don't really makes it better.
If it wasn't for modders, the game would be long dead.

Without "procedural crap" you can't have a good non-linear, combat-oriented, open-ended game. You can't have Battle Brothers. This is not a hard concept to grasp:
Quality hand-made content requires a lot of resources to make => resulting in limited amounts of encounters and maps => which is not how BB and other games in the (sub)genre work. I'd like to play a BB-like that is a) decent; b) mostly hand-made content ; c) is not AAA. Please?
Battle Brothers is over 5 years old. Some people still play it. It is an obscure indie with legless sprites. What are you expecting? What kept it alive were several DLCs over the years.
Seriously, the battles are NOT the same "over and over". I can't even wrap my head around the reasons why anyone would play the game if it was the case.
There are many issues with Battle Brothers, like the contract system, as you said. However I suspect that your reasoning is the exact opposite of mine why and how to fix it. What is holding BB back is lack of a "living" world where your company is not the centre of the universe = more procedural "crap", not less.

It seems to me that you are another person who wants to remake Battle Brothers into a game of different genre than it is now. Why would anyone want this, i don't know. I'd like to see someone coming here and wishing to change KotC2 into a game with a lot of completely procedural "crap", maps, encounters, you name it. Aka game that is not KotC. That would be hilarious.

 

[Reinhardt]

Someone needs to make a "Quest for Roots" module.

that's pretty much what i'm trying. alchemist and soldier starting characters, no magic, only healing available is smol one-time from found roots and herbs after skill checks.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Someone needs to make a "Quest for Roots" module.

that's pretty much what i'm trying. alchemist and soldier starting characters, no magic, only healing available is smol one-time from found roots and herbs after skill checks.

I suppose the enemies are merchants who name exorbitant prices and impatient loan sharks?

 

[Reinhardt]

Someone needs to make a "Quest for Roots" module.

that's pretty much what i'm trying. alchemist and soldier starting characters, no magic, only healing available is smol one-time from found roots and herbs after skill checks.

I suppose the enemies are merchants who name exorbitant prices and impatient loan sharks?

Some forest critters, 2 optional fights, one of them unwinnable at this stage, then big end fight where you need to kill as many as you can before you are captured. Then prologue of prologue ends.

 

[Brancaleone]

Someone needs to make a "Quest for Roots" module.

that's pretty much what i'm trying. alchemist and soldier starting characters, no magic, only healing available is smol one-time from found roots and herbs after skill checks.

I suppose the enemies are merchants who name exorbitant prices and impatient loan sharks?

Some forest critters, 2 optional fights, one of them unwinnable at this stage, then big end fight where you need to kill as many as you can before you are captured. Then prologue of prologue ends.

Does the prologue of prologue have a prologue? I need to be eased into the plot little by little.

 

[Serus]

Someone needs to make a "Quest for Roots" module.

that's pretty much what i'm trying. alchemist and soldier starting characters, no magic, only healing available is smol one-time from found roots and herbs after skill checks.

I suppose the enemies are merchants who name exorbitant prices and impatient loan sharks?

Some forest critters, 2 optional fights, one of them unwinnable at this stage, then big end fight where you need to kill as many as you can before you are captured. Then prologue of prologue ends.

Does the prologue of prologue have a prologue? I need to be eased into the plot little by little.

No but it has tutorial to the tutorial to the prologue, it can be too difficult otherwise.

 

[Reinhardt]

i think forest maps are hardest to make. ended launching Battle Brothers and screening random forest battles for reference