KickStarter Knights of the Chalice 2 Thread - Augury of Chaos

[Dickie]

I can just imagine the random modifier table Pierre would make. There would be no "none" on the table and it'd all be stuff like "the room is on fire," "the room is full of acid," "you only get 2 party members," "enemy casters start on a ledge 50 ft above the party," etc. and it'd roll three times for each encounter.

 

[rojay]

I love Battle Brothers but the combat is much less complicated than KOTC2.

 

[JarlFrank]

Battle Brothers with hand-crafted maps and encounters would be so much better.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Comparing this game to a RL is a bit unreasonable.

I'm not comparing it to RLs I'm just saying challenging hand-made encounters are infinitely more replayable than procedural crap

While I like KotC2, I don't see it having same longevity for me as X-com and its various mods.

 

[Tweed]

Ahh finally, the perfect resolution. Now I can play!

 

[Serus]

Battle Brothers with hand-crafted maps and encounters would be so much better worse.

And wouldn't be Battle Brothers anymore. Jarl, consider this:
You can only a make limited amount of hand made encounters and even more limited numbers of high quality ones, those require time and effort to make. Right? You can only have a game with all hand-made encounters where there is a finite numbers of those. And if you want to have all encounters of high quality it has to be a relatively short game. Which means typical linear(-ish) combat-oriented crpg with a clearly defined end. Say... KotC2?
Battle Brothers is nothing like that. It's gameplay is not about following a linear story at all. There is no story. Imagine having to make literally thousands of encounters to give the same kind of gameplay. Impossible to do well. So you'd have to limit it greatly to a more linear experience. You'd have to change everything that is Battle Bother-ish in Battle Brothers and turn it into a linear KotC-like.
In the end it might become a better game, sure. But not a Battle Brothers game other than in name. You will kill it - ergo you are wrong in your post.

When you are at it, change all encounters in Pirates! or X-COM-likes and other similar games of all sorts, into hand made ones butchering those games in the process. Let's see how people who like those kind of games will be grateful to you.

[prepares snacks for a lynching]

 

[Serus]

I love Battle Brothers but the combat is much less complicated than KOTC2.

Complex != tactical or deep
For example, You can make a game with hundreds of units with very complex stats. However if they are all samey then it doesn't create more tactical options. Making only a few and simpler but different makes for better tactical game.
Why I am bringing it? Because 3/4 of KotC2 (and in general DnD) complexity is just fluff. Fluff is fun and can make a game a better experience but doesn't add anything more that the 1/4 already offers when it comes to tactical play.
Add to that the fact that some encounters in KotC2 have puzzle-like quality. While nothing wrong with puzzles - they aren't that "tactical". And finally the random element. It is one thing to manage it (both games do it) and another is having whole fights depending on it and no way to mitigate it (guess which game has it). The latter doesn't make good combat.
I honestly think BB combat is slightly better (Jarl will lynch me now) but KotC is very good as well.

 

[Darth Canoli]

I forgot to counter you with Battle Brothers' "procedural crap" which can produces better combat than the vast majority of hand-made crap. And it still has a couple of hand-made ones as well.
I'm not saying that many of KotC2 encounters aren't very well done and the best ones are great. It is a very good game after all.

The combat system is good, the difficulty is high enough and it's moddable, plus ,the art-style actually attracted modders but the procedural crap is what's holding it back from being a great game.

This and some bad design choices like the quest system, some monsters like wieldergangers and iffrits.

Seriously, you're just getting into the same fights over and over and their recent fortified villages don't really makes it better.
If it wasn't for modders, the game would be long dead.

 

[Serus]

I forgot to counter you with Battle Brothers' "procedural crap" which can produces better combat than the vast majority of hand-made crap. And it still has a couple of hand-made ones as well.
I'm not saying that many of KotC2 encounters aren't very well done and the best ones are great. It is a very good game after all.

The combat system is good, the difficulty is high enough and it's moddable, plus ,the art-style actually attracted modders but the procedural crap is what's holding it back from being a great game.

This and some bad design choices like the quest system, some monsters like wieldergangers and iffrits.

Seriously, you're just getting into the same fights over and over and their recent fortified villages don't really makes it better.
If it wasn't for modders, the game would be long dead.

Without "procedural crap" you can't have a good non-linear, combat-oriented, open-ended game. You can't have Battle Brothers. This is not a hard concept to grasp:
Quality hand-made content requires a lot of resources to make => resulting in limited amounts of encounters and maps => which is not how BB and other games in the (sub)genre work. I'd like to play a BB-like that is a) decent; b) mostly hand-made content ; c) is not AAA. Please?
Battle Brothers is over 5 years old. Some people still play it. It is an obscure indie with legless sprites. What are you expecting? What kept it alive were several DLCs over the years.
Seriously, the battles are NOT the same "over and over". I can't even wrap my head around the reasons why anyone would play the game if it was the case.
There are many issues with Battle Brothers, like the contract system, as you said. However I suspect that your reasoning is the exact opposite of mine why and how to fix it. What is holding BB back is lack of a "living" world where your company is not the centre of the universe = more procedural "crap", not less.

It seems to me that you are another person who wants to remake Battle Brothers into a game of different genre than it is now. Why would anyone want this, i don't know. I'd like to see someone coming here and wishing to change KotC2 into a game with a lot of completely procedural "crap", maps, encounters, you name it. Aka game that is not KotC. That would be hilarious.

 

[Reinhardt]

Someone needs to make a "Quest for Roots" module.

that's pretty much what i'm trying. alchemist and soldier starting characters, no magic, only healing available is smol one-time from found roots and herbs after skill checks.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Someone needs to make a "Quest for Roots" module.

that's pretty much what i'm trying. alchemist and soldier starting characters, no magic, only healing available is smol one-time from found roots and herbs after skill checks.

I suppose the enemies are merchants who name exorbitant prices and impatient loan sharks?

 

[Reinhardt]

Someone needs to make a "Quest for Roots" module.

that's pretty much what i'm trying. alchemist and soldier starting characters, no magic, only healing available is smol one-time from found roots and herbs after skill checks.

I suppose the enemies are merchants who name exorbitant prices and impatient loan sharks?

Some forest critters, 2 optional fights, one of them unwinnable at this stage, then big end fight where you need to kill as many as you can before you are captured. Then prologue of prologue ends.

 

[Brancaleone]

Someone needs to make a "Quest for Roots" module.

that's pretty much what i'm trying. alchemist and soldier starting characters, no magic, only healing available is smol one-time from found roots and herbs after skill checks.

I suppose the enemies are merchants who name exorbitant prices and impatient loan sharks?

Some forest critters, 2 optional fights, one of them unwinnable at this stage, then big end fight where you need to kill as many as you can before you are captured. Then prologue of prologue ends.

Does the prologue of prologue have a prologue? I need to be eased into the plot little by little.

 

[Serus]

Someone needs to make a "Quest for Roots" module.

that's pretty much what i'm trying. alchemist and soldier starting characters, no magic, only healing available is smol one-time from found roots and herbs after skill checks.

I suppose the enemies are merchants who name exorbitant prices and impatient loan sharks?

Some forest critters, 2 optional fights, one of them unwinnable at this stage, then big end fight where you need to kill as many as you can before you are captured. Then prologue of prologue ends.

Does the prologue of prologue have a prologue? I need to be eased into the plot little by little.

No but it has tutorial to the tutorial to the prologue, it can be too difficult otherwise.

 

[Reinhardt]

i think forest maps are hardest to make. ended launching Battle Brothers and screening random forest battles for reference

 

[Darth Canoli]

Someone needs to make a "Quest for Roots" module.

There's already 3 spots where you can gather roots outside the village and 1 in the sword's cave, not even counting the ones from the dungeon.
So Quest for Roots is already the sub-subtitle of the module.

 

[Serus]

We need an "Eat roots!" rating. I don't know what it would mean and it would be even more useless than most other useless ratings. But we need it anyway!

 

[Reinhardt]

only available for 50+$ patrons.

 

[Darth Canoli]

I'm hoarding xp by staying 2/3 level below my total xp, trying to reach the Spider Queen at level 17/18, usually, I get there around level 16.

I'm not sure how I'm faring so far, after clearing Pizarra + the shadows ambush and the remained cultist near the stairs, the team is level 8 but with enough xp to reach level 11.
Beat Pizarra at levels 6/7/8, 6 was a mistake, I thought the fighter was level 7 like the rest (aside from the monk + druid companions at level 8) and he got 21K xp for winning the fight (18/19K at level 7).

It was really tough, I had to use my 2 acorns of earthquake and one raise dead scroll to resurrect the monk (which was replaced by Pizarra afterwards).
Both my mages were muted after 3/4 turns so the DK Skewered his way through the fight with the druid to heal, summon and quicksand, the monk to tank to death and the Psion to nuke, stun and heal while I got the rogue sickened by my own spell and then scared and blinded by the demon and an archer.

First time I think I'm fucked each time any reinforcement arrives, the demon was bad enough, skewered after 2/3 turns, then the orcs and then the Vroks but luckily, they gathered all in one spot to allow me to energy stun them, how nice!

 

[JarlFrank]

I honestly think BB combat is slightly better (Jarl will lynch me now) but KotC is very good as well.

Nah I won't lynch you for that one, BB's combat system is pretty great. Its encounters can't reach the quality of KotC's hand-made ones, but the system is good enough to carry the game.

 

[Yosharian]

Is there a way to turn off the bit where you have to sacrifice XP to create magical items? I can't stand that mechanic

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Is there a way to turn off the bit where you have to sacrifice XP to create magical items? I can't stand that mechanic

Disable crafting

 

[Fireblade]

Don’t think so, but you can use inactive companions to do the crafting…

 

[Yosharian]

Meh. I keep forgetting and draining my main character's XP by accident

 

[Reinhardt]

no one even did codex playthrough, pathetic