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Editorial Leon Boyarsky - Thoughts on RPG development
- Thread starter Saint_Proverbius
- Start date
Droog White Smile
Educated
That's a nice book!a budda said::installing PS:T:
Droog White Smile said:That's a nice book!a budda said::installing PS:T:
Awor Szurkrarz
Arcane
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2009
- Messages
- 21,899
Well, there isn't much worth writing long posts on any more.
darkpatriot said:
You name one interesting topic that hasn't been debated or a game with depth to discuss, and I'll be a serious debating-dude instead of the trollish form I sometimes occupy now.
All subjects which merit interesting discussion - new Civ, Dragon Age C&C, various game-design choices - are being discussed at length on the codex with posts easily as good as the ones from 2002.
So either fuck off my lawn, contribute to the interesting conversation or stay a pussy Decliner who comments on our decline even though you haven't yourself contributed to one single fucking debate yet.
Pfft.
LusciousPear
Savant
Re: Simple solution: Charge more money
You know, that's a good point... that might even make it more appealing.
Jinsai said:
You know, that's a good point... that might even make it more appealing.
Awor Szurkrarz
Arcane
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2009
- Messages
- 21,899
I agree here. When people are starving for good games, they are ready to pay very high prices. I remember paying 165 PLN for Fallout 1/2, PST, Arcanum and many other games, so I think that paying 165 Euro/USD shouldn't be a problem for someone who works in Western Europe/USA.
Araanor said:
Are you a Decliner too, or did you just want to point out that I'm inferior because I registered last year?
Droog White Smile
Educated
Just STFU, Grunker.
Droog White Smile
Educated
Christ...
Most new people really don't understand what the Codex's been about all these fuckin' years.
Behold:
The Codex is going down the toilet
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004
This is even before Troika went down and Oblivion was released.
Now go and meditate on this knowledge. FFS.
Most new people really don't understand what the Codex's been about all these fuckin' years.
Behold:
The Codex is going down the toilet
Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004
This is even before Troika went down and Oblivion was released.
Now go and meditate on this knowledge. FFS.
Droog White Smile
Educated
Clockwork Knight
Arcane
Some codexers would do well to heed his advice...
Alex
Arcane
To the people who claim that every topic about rpg design has been exhausted, I have only one thing to say: bullcrap.
I am not trying to deny that there were a lot of interesting discussions. People argued about all kinds of rpg design topics, from quest and character design to how classless systems differ from class based ones. The "project monkey" thread, for example, holds links to a lot of the good discussions. However, I don't think for a minute that all that was left to be said has been said and done. There are many topics that could be explored, designs that should be studied, ideas and concepts that can yield different kinds of games.
The Codex ended because people grew tired of waiting for an rpg renascence. As people in this thread have pointed out, the current games industry certainly ain't kind to the games the people here love. But I still think that this will be reversed, possibly in a not distant future. The problem with discussing rpgs right now isn't only that no one is doing them, but also that even if what you have to say has merit, all it amounts too is empty talk without something like a prototype.
However, making prototypes or changing already started games right now is incredibly costly! For example, suppose you want to add armor piercing ammo to a game. This might involve going over each enemy to decide which ones are weak to this type of ammo, and then changing the battle procedures so they take into account the new type of attack. Depending on how you programmed things, this could take weeks or of work (if your battle procedures are complex and hard to read)! And that is not even considering balancing work.
I really believe that once we have a more reliable and easy way to prototype and change games, the spirit of the old codex will be back. And I really think this will be a lot sooner than most people would expect.
I am not trying to deny that there were a lot of interesting discussions. People argued about all kinds of rpg design topics, from quest and character design to how classless systems differ from class based ones. The "project monkey" thread, for example, holds links to a lot of the good discussions. However, I don't think for a minute that all that was left to be said has been said and done. There are many topics that could be explored, designs that should be studied, ideas and concepts that can yield different kinds of games.
The Codex ended because people grew tired of waiting for an rpg renascence. As people in this thread have pointed out, the current games industry certainly ain't kind to the games the people here love. But I still think that this will be reversed, possibly in a not distant future. The problem with discussing rpgs right now isn't only that no one is doing them, but also that even if what you have to say has merit, all it amounts too is empty talk without something like a prototype.
However, making prototypes or changing already started games right now is incredibly costly! For example, suppose you want to add armor piercing ammo to a game. This might involve going over each enemy to decide which ones are weak to this type of ammo, and then changing the battle procedures so they take into account the new type of attack. Depending on how you programmed things, this could take weeks or of work (if your battle procedures are complex and hard to read)! And that is not even considering balancing work.
I really believe that once we have a more reliable and easy way to prototype and change games, the spirit of the old codex will be back. And I really think this will be a lot sooner than most people would expect.
http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=42378
http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=42456
http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=41232
http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=42027
http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=41772
http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=41275
http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=42378
http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=42487
http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=42478
http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=42448
http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=42467
http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=42472
http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=42412
How is the Codex dead, huh? Please direct me to the fucking goldmine of glory that seem to exist in 2002, compared to today. As Drog pointed out:
Droog White Smile said:
Alex
Arcane
That wasn't quite what I meant by the Codex ending, bu I think these can help my argument, so let's go over each one:
I appreciate many of these threads, really. I appreciate that some people are still trying to keep the old discussions alive. But I can't help thinking it is different now. Before (and this is before I even registered here, when I only lurked around sometimes), there seemed to be the idea that the discussions here were worthwhile, that what people were going on about wasn't simple idle chat.
Nowadays, it seems that people feel that anything worthwhile has already been discussed, and most people will rather not post anything, or post some one liner rather than make a discussion about flaws and merits of different ideas. I am not pointing fingers here, I have often refrained from posting in good threads (or threads that could become good) simply because I felt there wasn't much of a point.
But I still hold out hope. I really think that, someday, we will get tools that allow us to make fast mock up rpg games. And when I say mock up game, I mean games that are still complex, but are quite unfinished. For example, take the first link you provided, the discussion about randomized C&C. That was one of the better examples on keeping the Codex's old spirit alive.
Still, in the end, all people had to base their discussion was the Shadowrun game mentioned by Zeus (which was only brought back by suicide bunny later on to say it was bad) and nebulous ideas people might have about the issue. When I say nebulous, I don't mean to be insulting. I only mean that it is really hard to make interesting points about a feature that you can only imagine, but can't see working in front of you.
I imagine that, if instead of trying to argue how it would work, people where able to make a mock up game in say, and hour or two, the discussion would be much more fruitful. TNO might post a small game with and without consequences, and point out in the game the stuff he thinks work best. Then someone else might point a different way to achieve the same benefits and argue why he thinks it works better and so on.
So, all in all, I don't mean to say that there is only shit now and the golden times are lost. It is just that a lot of the enthusiasm seems gone, and people who actually try to discuss anything interesting rarely can delve into interesting ideas because there isn't much to use as examples. On the few times that people are able to do so (usually because they have a solid ground on some kind of rpg), they don't find any opposition, because the games that have been made are only a small portion of what is possible.
This is a petty good thread. It is good to see people at least arguing about the ups and downs of each side of the argument. Still, I can't help but feel people remain on the surface of the discussion, as if there are interesting principles deeper down. Not saying this didn't happen in the old days, but at least you had a lot more fresh examples about what was being discussed, which allowed deeper concepts to be explored.Grunker said:
Good threads too, although it seems a little early to know if anything will come out of them. I still think the threads are a little thin because people have a lack of game experiences to compare ideas.Grunker said:
While there could have been some worthwhile insight about stat design in rpgs coming out of that thread, it lost focus and became to lulzy too quickly...Grunker said:
Nice idea, and an interesting fact about Wizardry 7. However, there isn't much discussion in this thread...Grunker said:
Good discussion between Mondblut and Mikayel. However, although Mondblut does get somewhere (probably because he has a lot of experience with older rpgs), his views go more or less unchallenged.Grunker said:
Not a very good example. This is just a "Is this game shit?" thread.Grunker said:
A thread asking for games like dungeon lords. Actually, theverybigslayer threads where he mentions some obscure fun game is one of the reasons I keep coming to the Codex. This isn't one of them, though...Grunker said:
Seems like a nice thread (didn't read most of it yet). Yet, it looks like it is more about the lulz than about serious considerations about TES 5.Grunker said:
This looks like just a poll thread. Any good insights in there that I am missing (sorry for not reading it all).Grunker said:
Grunker said:
I appreciate many of these threads, really. I appreciate that some people are still trying to keep the old discussions alive. But I can't help thinking it is different now. Before (and this is before I even registered here, when I only lurked around sometimes), there seemed to be the idea that the discussions here were worthwhile, that what people were going on about wasn't simple idle chat.
Nowadays, it seems that people feel that anything worthwhile has already been discussed, and most people will rather not post anything, or post some one liner rather than make a discussion about flaws and merits of different ideas. I am not pointing fingers here, I have often refrained from posting in good threads (or threads that could become good) simply because I felt there wasn't much of a point.
But I still hold out hope. I really think that, someday, we will get tools that allow us to make fast mock up rpg games. And when I say mock up game, I mean games that are still complex, but are quite unfinished. For example, take the first link you provided, the discussion about randomized C&C. That was one of the better examples on keeping the Codex's old spirit alive.
Still, in the end, all people had to base their discussion was the Shadowrun game mentioned by Zeus (which was only brought back by suicide bunny later on to say it was bad) and nebulous ideas people might have about the issue. When I say nebulous, I don't mean to be insulting. I only mean that it is really hard to make interesting points about a feature that you can only imagine, but can't see working in front of you.
I imagine that, if instead of trying to argue how it would work, people where able to make a mock up game in say, and hour or two, the discussion would be much more fruitful. TNO might post a small game with and without consequences, and point out in the game the stuff he thinks work best. Then someone else might point a different way to achieve the same benefits and argue why he thinks it works better and so on.
So, all in all, I don't mean to say that there is only shit now and the golden times are lost. It is just that a lot of the enthusiasm seems gone, and people who actually try to discuss anything interesting rarely can delve into interesting ideas because there isn't much to use as examples. On the few times that people are able to do so (usually because they have a solid ground on some kind of rpg), they don't find any opposition, because the games that have been made are only a small portion of what is possible.
Frau Bishop
Erudite
He broke up - nothing left to say.Black said:
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2007
- Messages
- 5,480
Frau Bishop said:
s'cuz i was fucking around behind his back.
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