Lilura's Blog: An Ongoing Codexian Obsession

[mediocrepoet]

She has a job?

"She's" a she??

 

[Lilura]

Lilura, are you playing these games on Steam/GOG?

My retrospectives were written while playing from installations based on ISOs of original optical media purchased when the games came out.

 

[Catacombs]

Lilura, are you playing these games on Steam/GOG?

My retrospectives were written while playing from installations based on ISOs of original optical media purchased when the games came out.

Cool. I asked because I'm curious to know how many hours you invested in those games for the blog. Seems like... a lot.

 

[Lilura]

Yeah, I honestly prefer not to think about it.

I prefer gaming with blogging in mind rather than just gaming. It's improved my English writing skills, at least.

And there are worse games I could be blogging about. I'm not all about "muh hits" or I'd be blogging about AAA popamoles.

Speaking of popamoles, I'm writing a retrospective on the original Gothic.

Took a couple weeks off the blog/forum to absorb myself in Gothic & Gothic 2. Full run's complete. Had fun.

 

[anvi]

Have you played Prey?

 

[Lilura]

Have you played Prey?

It's current gen? So, no. STALKER is my limit.

 

[anvi]

It came out in 2017 but I only tried it for the first time last month, I am super impressed. It is the System Shock 3 I waited 20 odd years for. I ignored it this long because the other games that are supposed to be like System Shock were a let down for me. Bioshocks, Dead Space, Alien Isolation etc. The latter was pretty good atmosphere and never intended to be like System Shock I guess, but still. None of them interested me. Prey has been great though.

It is actually what I always wished Stalker was when I first played it. Although I like those games too.

 

[biggestboss]

https://lilura1.blogspot.com/2020/0...l-Turn-based-Isometric-esque-Verticality.html

 

[anvi]

That was well said.

 

[Lilura]

That was well said.

Lazy-ass write-up where I mostly just quote myself, but thanks.

 

[Latro]

Still, the combat system, ruleset implementation and tactical perspective are enough to float our boat so let's keep following for a while longer, and see what happens.

Fairfax pointed out they've given PC's an entirely extra free action for no other reason than to make them stronger, so let's see if Larian doesn't find a way to screw it up. Very fair of you to not just call the entire thing off either way.

 

[Chippy]

Lilura I've been meaning to ask you - what PC do you use to run your IE games? My WINXP CD got damaged, but I have an old 98se edition single core PC that I use for older games - does the original BG run as well on that operating system as XP?. In other words; what's the best rig for IE games?.

If you say XP, I'm gonna have to try to track down another CD...

Thanks.

 

[anvi]

That was well said.

Lazy-ass write-up where I mostly just quote myself, but thanks.

Well there still isn't much to talk about because we only got a glimpse, but still, you said what needed to be said at this point.

 

[ItsChon]

The main thing we can take away from the video is that BG3's combat system is indeed turn-based, and its 3D cam not only allows for a traditional isometric perspective, but is also powerful and flexible in its rotation, zooming and trucking, à la Electron. This is a good thing.

Lilura Am I reading this correctly? Do you actually like the 3D cam with the rotations and zooms?

 

[anvi]

What's not to like? It lets you do anything except 1st person.

 

[Lilura]

Lilura I've been meaning to ask you - what PC do you use to run your IE games?

I just use a current gen PC/OS. I also have WinXP SP3 set up on VirtualBox.

Lilura Am I reading this correctly? Do you actually like the 3D cam with the rotations and zooms?

Yes, my fave 3D cams are Silent Storm's and Electron's Strategy mode (NWN2). Because they are proper tactical cams with trucking and dollying.

In Silent Storm, you can get basically any angle you want.

 

[ItsChon]

Yes, my fave 3D cams are Silent Storm's and Electron's Strategy mode (NWN2). Because they are proper tactical cams with trucking and dollying.

I haven't played Silent Storm so I can't speak on it, and I also never got around to finish modding NVWN2 (your write up on fixing the camera was great) so my experience is limited to the horrible time I had wrestling with the native camera. That being said, a 2D isometric camera view has been a major part in many of the best games of all time. Some of the games that come to mind,

1) JA2
2) ToEE
3) FO
4) BG
5)IWD

and the list goes on. While it's obvious that different games work better with different camera views, considering BG3 is a Baldur's Gate game, I don't think it's unreasonable to have wanted it to follow in its predecessors footsteps and feature a 2D, Isometric camera view. The fact that the only game with a 3D camera I've actually enjoyed has been AoD, definitely doesn't help things, especially when AoD is a level below the games I mentioned above and others that have not been named.

 

[Lilura]

In RPG sphere, 2D isometric was basically before 3D isometric-esque cams became good. It even took a while before 2D isometric was good enough to replace direct top-down or blobber style, at least on the DOS/Windows 3.1-98 platforms. There is no reason why 2D isometric couldn't have come along well before Diablo, and there were instances, but it wasn't as common as it should have been, nor was the representation slick and smooth (scrolling) because DOS/Windows platform, at that time, sucked ass and swallowed.

2D iso vs. 3D iso-esque cam:

We need 3D iso-esque cam for complex, multi-tiered, destructible enviroments with proper physics, but it's not so necessary otherwise. And yes, if I had my way, BG3 would be 2D iso. Big, juicy, well-animated sprites and oil painting-style backdrops. Because Larian 3D/Divinity 4.0 is just generic, forgettable shit whereas 2D, when done right, is immortal and timeless.

 

[Ninjerk]

The break in visual continuity is what makes the BG3 camera odd to me. The only screenshot I've (accidentally) seen looks like the Deus Ex/post-BG2 Bioware camera (head-and-shoulders closeup for DRAMATIC dialogue).

 

[Alpan]

The NWN2 camera is an excellent litmus test separating whiners from actual CRPG players. The fact that NWN2 has a horrible camera is a meme and has no grounding in reality after the various patches Obsidian released. If it has a fault, it is that the default maximum zoom-out level is too low; there are instances where the game tricks itself (after zone transitions involving different elevation levels) into having a further, more pleasant zoomed-out view, but it reverts to the default maximum after any adjustment.

 

[Lilura]

The break in visual continuity is what makes the BG3 camera odd to me. The only screenshot I've (accidentally) seen looks like the Deus Ex/post-BG2 Bioware camera (head-and-shoulders closeup for DRAMATIC dialogue).

Divinity 4.0 (BG3 engine) cam's got zoom-out to bird's eye view plus trucking, but it's also got the close-ups to emphasize cinematic dialogues (which I hate). Note how NWN2/Electron cam's strategy mode also had bird's eye view, and in many cases cinematic dialogue didn't kick in, so we could maintain bird's eye even during dialogue (with a proper dialogue window that could be repositioned anywhere on-screen). That's what BG3 should have an option for, but it won't, because Larian's current gen fanbase likes staring dumbly at fully voice-acted muppets for hours on end.

 

[Lilura]

If it has a fault, it is that the default maximum zoom-out level is too low; there are instances where the game tricks itself (after zone transitions involving different elevation levels) into having a further, more pleasant zoomed-out view, but it reverts to the default maximum after any adjustment.

Yep, that's Obsiditard right there. When we track the cam up a mountain, we can see that zoom-out goes far higher than default limitation after tracking away from it. But I'm pretty sure we can rotate the cam from that height without it defaulting to its limitation.

I always cite Electron strategy cam because its conception is pretty much the bee's knees, second only to Silent Storm.

 

[Jack Of Owls]

Saddened to hear that BG3 will have that "close-ups to emphasize cinematic dialogues" feature. I remember playing The Maimed God's Saga module for NWN2 by a respected author of NWN modules and when I saw the bland stock models representing "the mad god" in those forced dialogue closeups I lost all interest in continuing though the module itself outside of these horrifically bad cut scenes was decent but it was my breaking point. If the option doesn't exist to disable this feature in BG3 I probably won't bother playing it, but I'm at least hopeful it will.

 

[Lilura]

forced dialogue closeups I lost all interest in continuing though the module itself outside of these horrifically bad cut scenes was decent but it was my breaking point.

In a nutshell, this is what ruined many NWN2 modules. And think of the amount of blood, sweat and tears modders put into cutscene dialogue when their efforts would have been better redirected elsewhere, and appreciated more. Idiots, tbh.

I fucking hate cutscene/close-up dialogues with a passion.

When you have zoom-out potential that goes as far as Electron does, it's really jarring to enter cutscene mode. I prefer it when it's just a dialogue window that pops up, we maintain our current zoom level, and we can move the cam around during dialogue.

Here is Electron zoom-level, btw:

But BG3 takes that freedom away because devs are concerned with showing off facial animation, lip synching and muppet gestures, which aren't impressive anyway.

 

[Roguey]

Lil and Scorpia agreeing on something. http://www.scorpia.com/?p=515

Over at RPG Codex, there is a very good article by Role-Player on how the increasing use of cutscenes is ruining gameplay experience.

He maintains that cutscenes interfere with the flow of the game, often make nonsense of player choices and actions, and turn the player into more of a passive observer than an active participant in the story.

He cites several games to prove his points, although he doesn’t mention one of the worst, namely Neverwinter Nights 2. This game is so overloaded with cutscenes, almost the only real player action is heading into the next combat.

A friend of mine, who ordinarily plays a CRPG through several times, did this one only once. She said she wanted “to play a game, not watch a movie”. That about sums it up; NWN2 is more a movie than a game.

However, there was one “feature” that Role-Player didn’t mention: the cutscene that shows “what’s happening elsewhere”. Why are such scenes being shown to the player?

In NWN2, we look in on conversations or activities being conducted by various hostile factions. The player is not present, spying on enemies. Therefore, the player should not be seeing or hearing these things.

This technique is common in movies, but there we are just passively watching a story unfold. It has no place in a game, unless the player has some magical means of spying on enemies.

There is a lot of blather about “immersion” in games, but walking out the town gate and suddenly being treated to a conversation between Black Garius and his underlings destroys any feeling of immersion.

Of course, NWN2 didn’t have much of an “immersion factor” to begin with. And any it may have had disappears early under the weight of excessive scripting.

Much the same can be said for Hordes Of The Underdark, which also suffered from overuse of cutscenes, including “what’s happening elsewhere”. It makes you wonder if the story is about the player-character, or if the player-character is being treated more like an NPC observer.

That doesn’t mean cutscenes have no place in a game. They can be useful as introductory sequences. And certainly, at the end, a cutscene of Foozle’s death throes can be very satisfying.

Between those two points, however, cutscenes need to be used with a very sparing hand. There are two main reasons for this: (a) a game is not a movie, nor should it be; (b) excessive cutscenes reduce the replayability of a game.

I agree with Role-Player: designers are losing sight of gameplay and fun in their eagerness to “tell a story”, which too often turns out to be a story that hardly needs a player-character, or any real interaction beyond fighting. We can only hope that developers will reign in the “virtuoso coding” and remember that games are meant to be played, not watched.

The NWN2 camera is an excellent litmus test separating whiners from actual CRPG players. The fact that NWN2 has a horrible camera is a meme and has no grounding in reality after the various patches Obsidian released. If it has a fault, it is that the default maximum zoom-out level is too low; there are instances where the game tricks itself (after zone transitions involving different elevation levels) into having a further, more pleasant zoomed-out view, but it reverts to the default maximum after any adjustment.

It still requires too much fiddling. Any fiddling = bad camera.