Lilura's Blog: An Ongoing Codexian Obsession

[Deleted Member 22431]

My top 10 was as follows (not including mods):

I'm going to have to amend that because now I put even greater weight on combat systems and combat encounter design. I can see ToEE outstripping Arcanum in my next top 10 because Arcanum has too many storyfag tendencies, and its combat is complete shit on a stick. Also, MotB.

Lorefags and settingfags are only one rung above the lowliest of all, the storyfags.

No Knights of the Chalice?

 

[baud]

My top 10 was as follows (not including mods):

I'm going to have to amend that because now I put even greater weight on combat systems and combat encounter design. I can see ToEE outstripping Arcanum in my next top 10 because Arcanum has too many storyfag tendencies, and its combat is complete shit on a stick. Also, MotB.

Lorefags and settingfags are only one rung above the lowliest of all, the storyfags.

No Knights of the Chalice?

Too recent for Lilura?

 

[Thunar]

Hey, Evil Islands looks really good!

 

[Decado]

Other grounds for beheadings:

• Not having played Jagged Alliance 2, Silent Storm, ToEE or oldschool RPGs, and yet trying to say ANYTHING about turn-based combat (Larian'tards)
• Playing an original campaign in a sequel's engine, and preferring it (BG in BG2 engine, Fallout in Fallout 2 engine etc.)
• Playing the IE:EEs and preferring them to the original IEs
• Using widescreen mods on games designed for 4:3, and preferring it
• Playing games in non-native resolutions and complaining that UIs/fonts don't scale to 16:9/1080p
• Complaining about Electron's cam or MotB's spirit meter, while not acknowledging their virtues
• Rating PS:T as the greatest RPG of all-time because you are a storyfag cretin
• Calling Oblivion With Guns "Fallout", thereby ignoring the existence of the seminal and superior game by Interplay
• Playing and enjoying the Elder Scrolls games, and not keeping it to yourself
• Saying Jagged Alliance 2 isn't an RPG because it's got good tactical combat, when it's just that no game you think is an RPG does (you're just jealous)
• Saying Dark Sun or Planescape are the best campaign settings in D&D, when Greyhawk is
• Calling someone who plays old cRPGs "a grognard". (shameful term misuse)
• Enjoying dress-up dolly in chargen
• Complaining about Gothic 1's controls just because you lack the basic human intelligence required to use them
• Writing off any great RPG based on current gen fads, trends and "sensibilities"
• Not acknowledging that the original, authentic and authoritative version of a game is the one released and patch by the devs
• Thinking Gothic is hardcore and a masteripece, when it's as casual as popamoles get outside of Morrowind
• Saying ToEE is Troika's worst game when clearly Vampire Bloodlines is an edgy popamole for hipsters
• etc.

I like Morrowind.

Gothic is shit.

 

[Chippy]

It occurred to me this evening that I haven't played the proper versions of the IE games in 5 years. I stopped my yearly playthroughs after suffering through SOD, and needed to bleach it from my memory. So with armageddon apparently approaching, it seems a good time to dust off the classics.

 

[The_Mask]

Other grounds for beheadings:

• Not having played Jagged Alliance 2, Silent Storm, ToEE or oldschool RPGs, and yet trying to say ANYTHING about turn-based combat (Larian'tards)
• Playing an original campaign in a sequel's engine, and preferring it (BG in BG2 engine, Fallout in Fallout 2 engine etc.)
• Playing the IE:EEs and preferring them to the original IEs
• Using widescreen mods on games designed for 4:3, and preferring it
• Playing games in non-native resolutions and complaining that UIs/fonts don't scale to 16:9/1080p
• Complaining about Electron's cam or MotB's spirit meter, while not acknowledging their virtues
• Rating PS:T as the greatest RPG of all-time because you are a storyfag cretin
• Calling Oblivion With Guns "Fallout", thereby ignoring the existence of the seminal and superior game by Interplay
• Playing and enjoying the Elder Scrolls games, and not keeping it to yourself
• Saying Jagged Alliance 2 isn't an RPG because it's got good tactical combat, when it's just that no game you think is an RPG does (you're just jealous)
• Saying Dark Sun or Planescape are the best campaign settings in D&D, when Greyhawk is
• Calling someone who plays old cRPGs "a grognard". (shameful term misuse)
• Enjoying dress-up dolly in chargen
• Complaining about Gothic 1's controls just because you lack the basic human intelligence required to use them
• Writing off any great RPG based on current gen fads, trends and "sensibilities"
• Not acknowledging that the original, authentic and authoritative version of a game is the one released and patch by the devs
• Thinking Gothic is hardcore and a masteripece, when it's as casual as popamoles get outside of Morrowind
• Saying ToEE is Troika's worst game when clearly Vampire Bloodlines is an edgy popamole for hipsters
• etc.

I actually surprised myself by agreeing with most of this. But at the same time, I can't roll with the "beheading" term, so I still gave you an edgy rating.

Spoiler

(also the plural is beheads, or just use "decapitation" - much easier)

Also... Morrowind is more than just mushroom trees and funny music. And Gothic is more than just combat or lock sequences.

I do agree that Fallout: NV signaled to Bethesda the fact that they can fill their world(s) with objects of little meaning/junk and people will be okay with the inescapable loop of scavenging -> ammo/craft weapon/repair weapon -> shoot -> unlock scavenging site, that - ultimately - gave birth to Fallout 76.

Spoiler

And since we're fighting edge with edge... behead anyone that denigrates P:T.

 

[Lilura]

What do you think of Anachronox?

I think it's shit. Ion Storm's ranking is based on Deus Ex alone. Likewise, if Jagged Alliance 2 was Sir-Tech's only game, and they released nothing else, they would still be the greatest RPG dev of all-time because Jagged Alliance 2 is a work of genius, a masterpiece, and is as close as it gets to perfection in what is, let's be frank, a genre that lacks good coders, designers and system-builders.

No Knights of the Chalice?

I acknowledged its existence in my prime-agenda write-up, but it is not comparable to ToEE in any way shape or form.

If you were to read my recently updated and expanded retrospective (first-ranked on Google), and kept KotC in mind as you did, I'm sure you would agree that KotC cannot stand alongside ToEE without being laughed, booed and egged off-stage. It is D&D-lite.

Tbh, those awaiting KotC 2 are beggars with low-grade expectations. What they should be doing instead is supporting Temple+ and anyone who expresses an interest in doing TCMs for ToEE.

 

[anvi]

I loved KOTC but it is pretty "lite" And TOEE is just so damn good, I wish it was more well known. And the engine is good, it should have more stuff made for it. I didn't like co8 :/ It might have been decent if it wasn't so buggy, although I didn't like the big town either. Why have the player waste so much time exploring all that area when 99% of the locations aren't even used

 

[Lilura]

I didn't like co8

Neither did I. But without their initial efforts the community may not have grown, and Temple+ may not have existed.

It might have been decent if it wasn't so buggy, although I didn't like the big town either. Why have the player waste so much time exploring all that area when 99% of the locations aren't even used

Troika shouldn't have been so faithful to the module. They should have downsized and abstracted Hommlet/Nulb and focused more on polishing the dungeons. As I said in my retrospective, the opening vignettes were also a waste of dev-cycle time.

In other news,

Max Damage and Lord_Potato are butthurt.

 

[Max Damage]

You're trying way too hard, to be blunt. I like both ToEE and KotC, no idea why you are trying to cook some bad blood between these two. KotC not having the scope of ToEE doesn't make it inferior preference, especially when the latter is still incomplete even when it comes to combat bugs. Considering that KotC was made by one guy, it's pretty fucking awesome. You lashing out at others speaks more about the state of your rectum than the other way round.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Troika shouldn't have been so faithful to the module. They should have downsized and abstracted Hommlet/Nulb and focused more on polishing the dungeons.

I think he's talking about Co8's Verbobonc.

 

[Lilura]

This is obviously very important to you.

You have almost 14,000 posts over 13 years on the 'Dex. Don't tell me RPGs are not important to you.

I just wanted to make it clear that there is a big difference between focused gamers and generalists who play all RPGs without discrimination/discernment.

I like both ToEE and KotC, no idea why you are trying to cook some bad blood between these two.

I like them both, too. But ToEE is far superior. Notice how my opener in the poll thread was balanced? And how a few posters immediately insulted ToEE? I could have put screecaps of both games in there, linked to my retrospective, talked down KotC, but I didn't.

It was a few pro-KotC posters that started the bad blood.

ToEE credits (source: Lilura1):

That's not an army and the scope of ToEE far exceeds KotC.

You voted for KotC because it was made by one person, because it's an indie game (indie = cool!), and probably out of butthurt against me as well, whereas I voted for the best game.

You made a fool out of yourself and can't change your vote.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

I like both ToEE and KotC, no idea why you are trying to cook some bad blood between these two.

KotC >>>>>>> ToEE

But ToEE has good graphics and art, while KotC doesn't. So it must be because of that.

 

[J_C]

Other grounds for beheadings:

• Not having played Jagged Alliance 2, Silent Storm, ToEE or oldschool RPGs, and yet trying to say ANYTHING about turn-based combat (Larian'tards)
• Playing an original campaign in a sequel's engine, and preferring it (BG in BG2 engine, Fallout in Fallout 2 engine etc.)
• Playing the IE:EEs and preferring them to the original IEs
• Using widescreen mods on games designed for 4:3, and preferring it
• Playing games in non-native resolutions and complaining that UIs/fonts don't scale to 16:9/1080p
• Complaining about Electron's cam or MotB's spirit meter, while not acknowledging their virtues
• Rating PS:T as the greatest RPG of all-time because you are a storyfag cretin
• Calling Oblivion With Guns "Fallout", thereby ignoring the existence of the seminal and superior game by Interplay
• Playing and enjoying the Elder Scrolls games, and not keeping it to yourself
• Saying Jagged Alliance 2 isn't an RPG because it's got good tactical combat, when it's just that no game you think is an RPG does (you're just jealous)
• Saying Dark Sun or Planescape are the best campaign settings in D&D, when Greyhawk is
• Calling someone who plays old cRPGs "a grognard". (shameful term misuse)
• Enjoying dress-up dolly in chargen
• Complaining about Gothic 1's controls just because you lack the basic human intelligence required to use them
• Writing off any great RPG based on current gen fads, trends and "sensibilities"
• Not acknowledging that the original, authentic and authoritative version of a game is the one released and patch by the devs
• Thinking Gothic is hardcore and a masteripece, when it's as casual as popamoles get outside of Morrowind
• Saying ToEE is Troika's worst game when clearly Vampire Bloodlines is an edgy popamole for hipsters
• etc.

Damn, we almost had a perfect match, but you botched it at the finish like. Because Gothic is a masterpiece and Bloodline is also fantastic, not Troika's worst.

 

[Lilura]

ToEE has Gygax + Greyhawk + best ruleset employment + best D&D combat system + best crafting + best aesthetics + most extensible D&D engine (Temple+).

It also has the best combat encounter design. Now, a lot of people will disagree but that's because they can't build combat units or compose parties. Also, ToEE has some sweet combat encounters against singular toughies, with proper combat phases as outlined by me.

If you think there is too much mob-based combat encounter design then you are a fucking imbecile, and I write you off for all-time.

Yes, ToEE has bugs. Lots of bugs. But it's never stopped me playing patch2 on and off since its inception, and there is always dll fix, Co8 and Temple+. Newbies have nothing to complain about.

Also note how Golden Age agents rarely espouse the virtues of ToEE even though it's Gygaxian Greyhawk. That's because ToEE is from Renaissance era and shits on their FR/Krynn Goldbox, which is faggotry in comparison.

 

[Lilura]

Bloodline is also fantastic, not Troika's worst.

Bloodlines is Troika's worst RPG because it is a popamole. And not only a popamole but a vamp popamole with 100% voiced muppets.

ToEE is their best because it's turn-based, isometric and full party control with almost no storyfaggotry in sight.

Anyone can jump in and play Bloodlines but ToEE can break the will of casuals through its chargen alone. That's another yardstick we can use.

My ranking now is:

ToEE >>> Arcanum >>>>>>>>> Bloodlines

 

[Decado]

Why are people saying it is edgy for me to say that Gothic is shit? I'm pretty sure Gothic is widely regarded as clunky Eurojank shit. Like, this isn't even a fucking debate. Is it? Have I missed something?

ETA: Inb4 a bunch of edgy smilies

 

[Roguey]

They should have downsized and abstracted Hommlet/Nulb and focused more on polishing the dungeons.

Nulb is fine as it is, Hommlet was the problem.

 

[Fairfax]

ToEE has Gygax

best D&D combat system

it's Gygaxian Greyhawk

 

[Lilura]

I'm pretty sure Gothic is widely regarded as clunky Eurojank shit. Like, this isn't even a fucking debate. Is it? Have I missed something?

No, you're right. What's odd is that you like Morrowind.

Nulb is fine as it is, Hommlet was the problem.

In my humble opinion, they're both too big and movement rate is too slow out of combat. Temple+ allows us to increase movement rate, which is cool.

 

[J_C]

I'm pretty sure Gothic is widely regarded as clunky Eurojank shit.

I'm pretty sure this is not the Codex opinion, especially it being on many TOP RPG lists.

 

[Decado]

I'm pretty sure Gothic is widely regarded as clunky Eurojank shit. Like, this isn't even a fucking debate. Is it? Have I missed something?

No, you're right. What's odd is that you like Morrowind.

I have some fond memories of Morrowind, concerned with being stuck at sea for months at a time in the early 2000s. It was a lifesaver -- I could just put my headphones on and drown out my surroundings for an hour or two. I played four games for 9+ months of delployment: Morrowind, Deus Ex, Fallout 2, and BG II. So, I will always love those games even if there are parts of them that are not very good.

Also, Morrowind was surprising to me because the lore/setting was so unique for a company like Bethesda (especially when compared to the absolute shit that was Oblivion). I mean, the combat was dumb and most of the voice acting was terrible, but it was still p cool to pop into random cave and emerge with a daedric shield that weighed 90 pounds.

 

[Sigourn]

Why are people saying it is edgy for me to say that Gothic is shit? I'm pretty sure Gothic is widely regarded as clunky Eurojank shit. Like, this isn't even a fucking debate. Is it? Have I missed something?

ETA: Inb4 a bunch of edgy smilies

It's clunky eurojank but it's great.
The issue with Gothic is that by the time you get used to the controls, which can vary a lot depending on how many third person or first person action games you play, you will have lost about 10% of the game's length getting used to them and therefore not really enjoying the gameplay. But i's a great game once you DO get used to it.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

Why are people saying it is edgy for me to say that Gothic is shit? I'm pretty sure Gothic is widely regarded as clunky Eurojank shit. Like, this isn't even a fucking debate. Is it? Have I missed something?

Maybe some people think Gothic is not popamole because it is one of the few cRPGs in which you are treated like a dog instead of the chosen one. If you try to impose yourself on the gameworld it will push back. The problem is that the game allows you to grind and exploit NPCs, so the ceiling becomes pointless. Also, setting/lore faggotry is a real phenomenon and it is different from story faggotry.

 

[Lilura]

The problem is that the game allows you to grind and exploit NPCs, so the ceiling becomes pointless.

Yep, we can just go around beating everyone up for XP + items. In Gothic, beat-up merchants can be looted for all their stock. In Gothic 2: NotR some of that was changed but we can still loot tons of shit and we still get the XP from beat-downs.

As well, several NPCs can slay shit for us and we get free XP + items. In Gothic, we cruise to third level just by following obvious quest NPCs to Swamp Camp/New Camp.

And in Gothic 2: NotR we can yield 40,000 free XP by watching Diego slay shit.

Also, NotR is a ham-fisted illogical insertion to the base campaign. The base campaign is about dragons, not Raven with a side-dish of pirates. The way they worked that in was clumsy yet gets a free ride from the retarded fanbase who think they're hardcore and that Gothic is a masterpiece.