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Random Word, would you be willing to weigh in on this vote? The question is if Armaiti should rescue Shun with us or go with Yunzi and Qilin. I prefer she comes with us, for the reasons I mentioned above.
Still too close to count, I suppose? On the off chance a tie appears yet again, I'll postpone the update for a while. [Procrastination Excuse Skill +1]
Still too close to count, I suppose? On the off chance a tie appears yet again, I'll postpone the update for a while. [Procrastination Excuse Skill +1]
With the update schedule you keep for us whiny, ungrateful fucks, there's no reason to use any excuses, bro.
...but since I am a whiny, ungrateful fuck, muh update.
Flopping back wouldn't tie the vote. Abstaining would.
Besides, bringing Armaiti with Yunzi only means we have another Fire Cult person who needs to escape. That doesn't help. Plus, seriously, imagine what would happen if Huashan declares a crusade on the evil Fire Cult. This is our chance to prevent that. Heck, imagine what we could do once we can bring the Fire Cult with us to stomp Huashan Summit.
Fangshi, what about you, would you be willing to flop? There are the following points on that front:
1: According to Shaolin, we need to prove the Amesha Spenta are trustworthy (not Jing).
2: Fighting against Nie Wuxing's group is unwinnable with the amount of firepower they have, so Yunzi & Qilin should just try to escape if Qilin cannot diplomacy their way out. If Armaiti comes, she would just have to escape also and hurt the odds of diplomacy (too many fire culists).
3: Armaiti's techs (yiyang finger, battlefield shaker) shouldn't get stopped by the veiled lady's sound techniques like Jing and those needles did.
Afraid I can't flop. The basic assumptions we are each making about the situation are simply too different.
I don't see Armaiti's presence as a significant factor diplomatically in either A or B.
I am fairly certain that something will happen to the girls' group and that they will need the extra muscle.
I am confident that the assets we have to hand in A without Armaiti will be sufficient to succeed in our task.
And I am uncertain about the exact direction our fight with our target will take. I am not ready to assume that the musical technique she used to ambush everyone will be her primary means of attack or defense now, so I am not confident enough to make assumptions about which techs will/will not be useful when the time comes. (I would prefer though not to use an earthquake tech while underground.)
Based on that set of assumptions I will have to keep my vote on B.
By the time you finish convincing the Shaolin elders that no, you are not lying about being the new Fire Lord, half of them have fainted and the other half were still choking on the food. Abbot Fangci has a look of grave concern. “Keep this a secret for now, as best as you can,” he says. “Certain other sects would be less… tolerant. This is a very sensitive issue. Still, you promise much, to claim that you can sway such a heretical cult to your bidding.”
“Don’t worry about it, musclehead,” sighs Xuezi. “Just keep your little friendship a secret for now, while you wait and see how the boy fares. It’s not like we’re asking you to go about announcing it with gongs and shouts.”
“I suppose you are right, child… but why are you in here, again?” frowns Fangci.
Shaolin is taking a wait-and-see stance. We need to show that the Amesha Spenta can be trusted. They already trust Jing.
How would this hypothetical fight of yours with Nie Wuxing and his group go anyway? Our group cannot win even with Armaiti because they have masters, swords, and legendary techniques on their side. It seems to me the only hope is to make a run for it, in which case Armaiti would also have to escape so her presence does not particularly help matters. It also hurts the chances of Qilin being able to fast-talk their way out of it. Yunzi, Qilin, and Murong Yandi are already plenty strong on their own (don't underestimate Qilin when she uses her poisons) anyhow.
As for the Veiled Lady, why shouldn't we muster all the firepower we can get against her unknown strength? Even if she has other dangerous moves, it's still valuable to have party members who can bypass some of them. How is it that on the one hand you are fretting the veiled lady has music techniques + all sorts of other powers and on the other hand you are saying "we should handle her with less people"?
Haven't read the discuss, don't care to. I told myself I wasn't going to vote after the God of War ending, so I could plausibly keep that as canon at least in my own mind once the Codex inevitably fucks up. I think I can still do that even with this.
xxBxx just to make a tie less likely. GIMMEH DEM UPDATES! If there's a tie anyway, I revoke my vote in order to break the tie.
Edit: G.o.d becomes Allah. Haha, fucking DU and his forum experiments.
Yes I saw that but like I said the fundamental assumptions we are each bringing to this are different. I understand what you are arguing for and why, I just disagree.
I don't believe that a single act by one Amesha Spenta will convince anyone that the Cult has reformed. The way I understand that comment is that it is made in relation to the long term policy we have to pursue with the Cult. If we consistently show that the Cult is not a threat to Shaolin, Wudang and Emei then in the fullness of time they may come to accept us. I do not see it happening before the end of the CYOA to be honest. I also do not believe that they do trust us. The last time anyone from the orthodox world relied on us we cut the legs out from underneath them by trying to murder zhang.
Absinthe said:
How would this hypothetical fight of yours with Nie Wuxing and his group go anyway?
Because maximizing the force brought against the Lady requires weakening the group that goes after Nie. I think that doing so invites a greater chance of Yunzi being killed or Qilin being captured/killed and that is a situation I would rather avoid. Naturally if that is not a concern then it would be wiser to send everyone after the emperor.
Like I said different assumptions, different outcomes.
Fangshi, I think you are underestimating the significance of an Amesha Spenta rescuing the emperor and receiving amnesty from the emperor. This isn't a long-term strategy. The effects would be huge and rather immediate. I think the bro sects would stand behind the Fire Cult after that and that would put the Fire Cult in a good position.
Let me give you some known facts, then: Nie Wuxing, Madam Nie, Kunlun and Taishan Leaders are all master level. Three of them have legendary swords. They also have the Xuanyuan Sword. Now for some highly probable speculation: Nie Wuxing and Madam Nie both know at least 1 legendary technique. If Bai Jiutian was able to obtain a legendary tech, I fail to see why his masters would not. With these odds, why are you theorizing they would win as a function of firepower?
Is it not more likely that success will depend more on trickery and quick escapes than throwing more people into the mix? Take Youxia City for instance. If Jing tried to assassinate the leader of Taiye Hall with Bai Jiutian, it would have gone smoothly. If he dragged Bai Jiutian + more people, it would only have made a greater mess out of things. Just because you can bring more people doesn't mean it would help.
On the other hand, against the veiled lady, we probably should muster all the firepower we can get because this is where we need to defeat our enemy.
We are arguing in circles here and it is unlikely I will flop at this time, you would be better off directing your efforts at someone else.
Most of these issues I have already given my stance on and the facts and speculation remain the same so I will only type the short version:
On the Cult: Jing acting as Lord should suffice for those that matter and those that don't will not be our allies anyway. I also maintain that a single act will not be enough to change the minds of the orthodox world, even if it is saving the emperor.
On any probable battle: I am not theorizing at all. I suspect there will be conflict, it may not even be with Nie, and I would like them to have more options rather than less. It really is as simple as that. I also think we have more than enough firepower to save the emperor already between the orthodox pugilists ahead of us, Jing, Fu, Lingshu and Xuezi. Beyond a certain point overwhelming force becomes a simple waste of resources.
I may of course be incorrect in my views but I have seen nothing that shakes them so far.
Fangshi, there has been progress on the Fire Cult reputation point. I have provided a quote. I have illustrated why the presence of Amesha Spenta would carry a particular significance and now why the results would be immediate and not gradual. You, however, have presented no answers. None. As far as I can tell, I have already presented information that shakes your views. You merely did not acknowledge this information, and repeated yourself instead.
On any probable battle: No, you are theorizing. You have already established the basis of your vote sending Armaiti revolves on the assumption of a battle and that Armaiti's presence will constitute a "deciding" factor. This is contrary to the sneak & run theory or the diplomacy theory. However, you are rebuffing any attempts to look at the facts of the case with regards to Nie's capabilities should a battle occur. You also refuse to examine the fact that introducing Armaiti also endangers Armaiti. In essence, you have presented a very basic theory, and refused to even acknowledge the basic facts that we already know for certain because they introduce unfavorable elements to your theory. In essence, this information, also, should have shaken your views. You merely did not acknowledge it.
Maintaining your positions, in essence, becomes an act of foolishness as you have gone so far as to deny basic facts. You are entitled to your willful stupidity, however.
That said... All of you poor, blind sods deserve no sympathy. Allah, in all His infinite mercy, gave you eyes to read with and ears to hear, and yet you remain confident in your ignorance. Obvious hints are dismissed and discarded like so much grains of sand in the desert. Why, such a display of buffoonery is in itself an affront to His design!
Eh, I was only giving Fangshi a hard time for the particulars of his answer. Like he was somehow being clever or shit while resorting to willful ignorance. If he said "I think these arguments are a massive waste of time and I've already made my choice." I would've respected that. If he said "Screw it, it's a gut feeling, and I'm not in the mood to make sense," that would be acceptable also. But when he just repeats himself, fails to respond to my points, then claims my arguments are weak and basically regresses into "I just wont go into any details but I'm sure I'm right" then yeah, I called him out for being a moron. He earns bonus points for claiming he was open to the possibility of being wrong while simultaneously dismissing everything indicating precisely that.
Ah, what can I say I am an ignorant man, certain of nothing but my own shortcomings.
It is not so bad though...
Thoreau said:
A man’s ignorance sometimes is not only useful but beautiful—while his knowledge, so called, is oftentimes worse than useless, beside being ugly. Which is the best man to deal with: He who knows nothing about a subject, and, what is extremely rare, knows that he knows nothing, or he who really knows something about it but thinks that he knows all?
Honestly I see little point in typing everything out again given that most people simply skip over the discuss these days but fine, here goes:
Absinthe said:
Fangshi, there has been progress on the Fire Cult reputation point. I have provided a quote. I have illustrated why the presence of Amesha Spenta would carry a particular significance and now why the results would be immediate and not gradual. You, however, have presented no answers. None. As far as I can tell, I have already presented information that shakes your views. You merely did not acknowledge this information, and repeated yourself instead.
I have acknowledged the quote at the top of the page. Fangci expresses doubts about whether or not we can reform the Cult as an organization and Xuezi tells him to wait and to watch. We do not need heroics for that, in fact I would say that heroics have little bearing on it at all. What we need to do is demonstrate that both Jing and the Cult have become worthy of trust. That is a process that will take time and effort, I think it will in fact take some time (likely years) to undo the damage the Cult did when they invaded. As such I do not see that quote as clear proof that Armaiti's saving the emperor will shift the larger political landscape in any meaningful way.
As a result of that conclusion I do not find politics to be a compelling reason to send Armaiti with Jing.
Moving on to the 'battles' such as they are:
Absinthe said:
No, you are theorizing. You have already established the basis of your vote sending Armaiti revolves on the assumption of a battle and that Armaiti's presence will constitute a "deciding" factor. This is contrary to the sneak & run theory or the diplomacy theory. However, you are rebuffing any attempts to look at the facts of the case with regards to Nie's capabilities should a battle occur. You also refuse to examine the fact that introducing Armaiti also endangers Armaiti. In essence, you have presented a very basic theory, and refused to even acknowledge the basic facts that we already know for certain because they introduce unfavorable elements to your theory. In essence, this information, also, should have shaken your views. You merely did not acknowledge it.
Now I may not know what I think, that is entirely possible. These days I can barely hold two thoughts together so I went back and checked.
Fangshi said:
Armaiti as Yunzi's bodyguard needs to go with her. It is likely that Qilin and Yunzi will need help and Armaiti is one of the better fighters present. It is also likely that she wants to go with her charge anyway.
I would be more open to arguements that demonstrate Armaiti will be more useful to us in our fight than she would be to Qilin and Yunzi on their mission, though admittedly we have no idea what either group may encounter beyond the broad strokes. Even then I would require someone else to go with the girls to keep the teams even, I do not want either group to go into this weaker than they need to be.
Possibly, that is what I am leaning towards as well when it comes to justifying Armaiti's presence but it does seem a bit like overkill to me given the orthodox pugilists already on her trail, Fu, Lingshu, Jing and Xuezi (I suspect we will get to see her go all out against the emperor's abductor). While Qilin and Yunzi's group seems a bit anemic by comparison. Yunzi is almost on our level and Yandi is no slouch either while Qilin is good in support but none of them strike me as having the sort of endurance to weather a fight, Armaiti would be useful to absorb damage while Yunzi and Yandi dish it out and Qilin runs support and does battlefield management.
However I think they will likely run into someone or something and I want them to have extra help in case they do. By this point Armaiti should work quite well with Yunzi and it is her duty to protect the Holy Maiden, I want her doing something she would do naturally so she is fully committed to the task at hand.
Finally if Nie is as powerful as all that then that seems like an even better reason to send the extra help. It might take everything they have simply to escape. And that is assuming they do not run into something completely unexpected while scouting out the tunnels below the base of a slightly unhinged immortal.
I am fairly certain that something will happen to the girls' group and that they will need the extra muscle.
I am confident that the assets we have to hand in A without Armaiti will be sufficient to succeed in our task.
And I am uncertain about the exact direction our fight with our target will take. I am not ready to assume that the musical technique she used to ambush everyone will be her primary means of attack or defense now, so I am not confident enough to make assumptions about which techs will/will not be useful when the time comes. (I would prefer though not to use an earthquake tech while underground.)
Because maximizing the force brought against the Lady requires weakening the group that goes after Nie. I think that doing so invites a greater chance of Yunzi being killed or Qilin being captured/killed and that is a situation I would rather avoid. Naturally if that is not a concern then it would be wiser to send everyone after the emperor.
On any probable battle: I am not theorizing at all. I suspect there will be conflict, it may not even be with Nie, and I would like them to have more options rather than less. It really is as simple as that. I also think we have more than enough firepower to save the emperor already between the orthodox pugilists ahead of us, Jing, Fu, Lingshu and Xuezi. Beyond a certain point overwhelming force becomes a simple waste of resources.
I have not hung my arguement on the certainty of a pitched battle with Nie, merely on the liklihood of conflict with someone or something. And the one time I did mention fighting Nie it was done within the context of fleeing where they may well need Armaiti to collapse a tunnel for them or throw their enemies off balance or absorb hits that would incapacitate more frail fighters such as Yunzi and Qilin. I have been careful in fact to not speculate at all on what they may encounter beyond what little we know about Nie and his colleagues.
I do not think I am being disingenuous when I say that my reasons for sending Armaiti with them are to provide them with as many tools as we can reasonably spare them and that is in line with what I have said previously. I have no interest in trying to 'stat out' our enemies beyond that because I do not know what will happen or who they may be fighting.
Absinthe said:
Maintaining your positions, in essence, becomes an act of foolishness as you have gone so far as to deny basic facts. You are entitled to your willful stupidity, however.
Well I thank you for that and shall endeavour to properly represent both the willful and the stupid in the future as I choose to maintain my positions.
