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Master of Magic remake from Thea developers and Slitherine

Gaznak

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The original is old, it feels old (though it's undeniably still the best of the genre) and I'd prefer a new installment

Well, let us think for a moment that I am agree with you (spoiler: I am not, in fact, being 45 and never felt myself better in my entire life), and MoM needs a remake/remaster/redux/anything-of-this-kind-of-shit. The problem here is that no one in our days will be able to do it right. No f***ing one. Niemand. Nadie. Nessuno. Никто. And no one will ever try to do it right. Just because our oldfarts' "right" is not the same "right" as their "right' of nowadays.

Everything they touch becomes worse than before. So why should I choose "worse", and not "right"? MoM had been done "right". It's not perfect, God witness, but it's right.
 

Axioms

Arcane
Developer
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Messages
1,515
That "nuMOM" map just looks like a fucking Civ map. Fuck have some originality.
 

Lacrymas

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Sep 23, 2015
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18,018
Pathfinder: Wrath
I skimmed a few let's plays that have been cropping up lately and I don't like it. I don't think this is MoM, especially because of the painfully generic artstyle. MoM is full of charm and color, this is bland beyond belief.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
http://muhagames.com/master-of-magic-dev-diary-13-october-2022/

Master of Magic Dev Diary #13, October 2022​


Release date announced​

MasterOfMagic_FBPost_OutOnDecember_13.jpg

So, here we are, the official date of release has been announced, and it is December 13th 2022!

For those of you who have not yet had a chance to look, here are some links to a few press previews of the game.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1620576107

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1618520202


https://www.pcgamer.com/i-played-th...ic-and-all-i-got-was-a-lot-of-dead-halflings/

Working towards the Gold.​

Now that the date is settled, we are hard at work to complete the Gold version of the game, which means that we are feature and content complete (admittedly, some of the features seem to be cursed and need fixing!) and trying to finalise the game’s stability. This in turn signifies that in the weeks to come, we’ll be bug fixing like crazy, polishing till our elbows hurt and putting in those finishing touches on the AI.

What does it mean for the Beta?​

We will have the Beta up and running for a few more weeks, but then we do plan to close it for a bit before release, so that even our faithful Beta testers can perhaps enjoy one or two new things on release.


Q&A​

As we are about to finish up the Beta and complete the game for the looming release, it seems appropriate to reflect on the journey with a big Q&A session.

Question: what units should generally be used to scout the map for races that don’t have obvious scouting abilities (Draconians, etc)?

Answer:
We’ve added the event that grants you the spirit early game. It does not have a lot of movement points, but it does float and we have boosted its line of sight by one too, so it makes for a decent starting scout. As for later in the game, every race/magic school has its tricks I suppose. Like the Endurance spell that increases MP, or Fly that allows for easier movement and increases LoS.

Q: Is there a plan to make finding good settler locations easier, like a map filter/lens that shows all nearby hex values instead of needing to hover over each one?

A:
Yes, we do have some ideas and plans for this, but we will see if it can be done before release, or future updates.

Q: Will unrest modifiers per race be included as I feel this is hidden info currently?

We don’t currently have plans to display those, but race tension is implemented in the game and can even be modded.

Q: Loss of fame when a town is taken seems to be missing, will you implement it?

A: You do lose Fame when a city is lost, however, this information is not currently displayed. It is on a list for possible future updates.

Q: Will there be special diplomatic game changes (like no trading spells/items) or even modes such as how Civ had “raging barbarian hordes” which in this case could modify the amount of raiders spawned or whether they vanish if they lose a target.

A:
There are no plans for changes to diplomacy pre-release, but we may be able to implement some improvements in future updates. However, they are unlikely to reach the scope of Civ, as an indie team, we do our best, but there are limits.

Q: Any plans for a new race/magic realm/wizards/retorts/spells? either as patches over the next few months or as a DLC/Expansion in the far future?

We can’t really discuss that yet! However, it is likely that those are the sort of things updates and DLC’s may bring…

Q: Please talk about post launch developer support and plans.

A:
In terms of support, we will of course continue to provide it post-launch. As for plans, we can’t discuss specifics at this point, but we do have ideas that we want to pursue, and we do have a list of ‘medium and low’ tasks that we hope to address, at least in part, in our future updates.

Q: What was your favourite / most interesting race to work on and bring to life in the new MoM?

A:
Well, I can’t really talk about it as it may or may not have something to do with the previous two questions…

Q: With the final release almost upon us, could you share what have been the biggest challenges and the most difficult decisions you had to take?

A:
Faithfully recreating the spells, because they are so custom made, it has been a real challenge attempting this. And this leads directly to the other one, the AI, because all of the game’s mechanics are so irregular (in that they often have exceptions and special rules, rather than unified systems) teaching the AI to act with intelligence has been all the more complex.

And of course, just juggling expectation vs reality. So now coming up to the release it was hard to say stop to adding/modding features and just focusing on making what we have great.

Q:The game seems mostly very faithful to the original, and you took only minor (tasteful) decisions, like the hex maps or the refined events. Would you share what drove you to this path, are you happy with it?

I think it is safe to say that you, that is, the passionate fan base of the original game, have really steered us in this direction. When we were first approached to do this project, we weren’t convinced if we were going to stay as faithful. But, upon research, playing the game again, and just interacting with the fans, we decided to go all in. Are we happy we did it that way? Ask me again on December 13th!

Although, on a more personal note, I [Yuuki] actually am very happy we did it this way, as I dislike remakes and adaptations that don’t try it.

Q: Is there something you would have liked to really change from the original but didn’t dare to?

A: I think the impulse to add and change versus the ‘we do not dare’ feeling was something that could be applied to many things, but I dare not speak of them.

We did at one point plan a more extensive event system, more like in our Thea games, but in the end we decided it would change MoM too much and yeah, we dared not do that.

Q: The only aspect of the game which seems really different from the original is the diplomacy. Will it remain how it is now? Or is it planned to be expanded?

A:
Our original design had a more complex diplomacy system, but, given the existing complexity of the game as a whole, we were unable to commit the extra resources needed to pursue this. As such, it is unlikely we will change diplomacy for release, but we may be able to make adjustments in future updates.

Q: A more light-hearted question: What do you guys look forward to with the release of the game? E.g. growing the community, seeing what other people create, how unique play styles would be found and weird interactions being uncovered etc.

A:
Hmm, sleep, weekends, no more ‘but why did you change it? It was perfect in the og’ …

On a serious note, we are looking forward to seeing how the modding community will re-shape the game. It’s always fascinating to see how creative people get and how they do things we never thought of, or never had the time to do.

We’re also looking forward to, albeit anxiously, how the original Master of Magic community will judge the final product. More specifically, if they/you will be able to find that nostalgic magic that we tried to recreate.

Q: Will there eventually be more than two ways to win?

A
: We do not have plans to expand the game in this direction at the moment. Although back in the day of initial design talks, we did indeed ponder about the possibilities. So perhaps in the future we may revisit those ideas.

Q: Will the released game have more art? I’m thinking about spell gfx, animations, background music, etc.

A:
The current version of the beta is complete in terms of art, music and sfx. Minor tweaks may happen, but no major changes, or additions are planned.

Q: What about items? Treasures for some reason tend to give low-level, repetitive items. Are more predefined items going to be included?

A
: The items you receive as rewards are either from the predefined list from the og, or put together randomly by the system. We have no plans to expand this for now.

Q: Performance: is the beta slower than the final release is going to be? Even on relatively fast modern hardware, I sometimes notice stuttering or slow response times. Nothing dramatic, but I imagine that lower-end machines might struggle more.

A: The development build does tend to be more resource demanding than release builds, so we hope the answer is yes, and we are working towards that goal. Additionally, we plan to invest additional time in memory management which may also positively impact the final performance.

Q: I am interested in the logic used for map creation, as the original was basically cutting the map in continents, avoiding inland sea as the AI could not deal with it originally.

A: Our current world generation may create inland waters, and AI is aware of the scale of the water body. It should avoid wasting resources on the “pond fleet” and plan fine with them.

Q: Did you find some “cheese” strategies that made the original game too easy? How did you address that to make it more balanced in your remake?

A
: Of course we did, and we did not touch them! We always felt that the cheese factor is kind of the point of Master of Magic. You do have OP strategies and you can have loads of fun exploiting them. This is something the game shares with our previous titles, so we like it.

We have made changes to units/spells etc. but, nerfing was never the point, it was always about our ability to recreate it within our systems, so basically, sometimes we could not recreate faithfully, so we did it differently.

Q: On a completely more facetious note, what are the dev team favourite wizards or heroes?

A: I [Yuuki] play a custom Wizard almost every time now, I use Kali’s portrait the most, and I like Alchemy, Warlord, Channelling and mostly Life magic (I know, probable a terrible way to play, but I like it… them boosted paladins, love’em!) To further display my inaptitudes as a strategy player, I actually like getting B’Shan, cause he’s free
1f61b.svg


SirPi tells me Merlin is his favourite Wizard, although it is a love/hate relationship. Merlin is the first Wizard on the list, thus for quick tests, we tend to click on him most often… and then Brax is Szymon’s favourite hero as he loves dwarves.

A’vee singled out Jafar as her favourite Wizard, because of the mana – gold flexibility. And she likes MysticX but her reasons are Unknown… (must be the menacingly glowing eyes).

Shell, like me, likes to play custom Wizard. His BadBoy uses the Raven portrait and has Warlock +Myrran+Channeler+Alchemy and two Life books. His favourite hero is Mortu the Black Knight.

Khash did not poke his head from under the code to answer and Obi, being Khash’s padawan probably felt he should do as his master does…

Q: On a less facetious note: could you please describe more in depth how the different difficulties interact with “cheating” from the AI? Many 4x games give hidden bonuses to AI at higher difficulties, does Master of Magic do this too? Is there a difficulty level that has complex behaviour but no “hidden bonuses”? In short, could you elaborate on the various difficulty settings effects?

A: The base principle is that AI cheats tend to give it more/less resources, thus making it easier or more difficult for the AI to build up power.

The AI attacking each other is also curbed on higher difficulties, so that the more difficult the game the more the AI will focus on the Player instead of each other.

We are also considering a range of additional little cheats to make the high difficulty games more challenging, among the things that we may add is a starting hero, a settler added early game, and/or more troops to boost that early game build up.

Q: Do you plan on adding the edge scrolling before release?

A: It is a possibility, but I cannot make a promise. With the size of our team, we must prioritise and edge scrolling is, for now, deemed nice, but not essential.

Q: Localization?

A: Our publisher, Slitherine, has confirmed to us that they do plan to add some localisation, but no specific info has yet been published, so I can neither make promises or give details.

Q: Will Master of Magic have the same compile at execute style modding as Thea 2 did? Because that was fantastic.

Both MoM and Thea2 share the scripting system, where a fair share of the gameplay is already exposed to scripts you can modify and which are loaded when you start the game and no tools except notepad are needed.

Both games have large databases in XML format, relatively easy to read (we hope
1f609.svg
) and both games have the event editor, with possibilities which can be extended in many aspects by scripts and database.

More modding features will likely join those above following implementations similar to what Thea 2 offers so yes, we hope you will be satisfied.

Q: How many things/what can be modded?

At the moment, the moddable areas are:

  • Adding/Modding Skills (but not the art atm)
  • Adding/Modding Traits (not the art atm)
  • Units (although not not 3D models, and not 2D art atm)
  • Resource distribution
  • Lair rewards
  • Building bonuses
  • New buildings (but they will not show on the map, as you can’t add the 2d art to the map, and no new icons atm)
  • Change/add spells (including sound effects but not art atm and not special effects)
  • Adding music (by adding an Ogg file to the assets)
  • Adding sound effects
  • Race tension stats can also be modded in the database
  • World events via the event editor
  • Some AI behaviours will be moddable
  • Treaties in Diplomacy can be adjusted in terms of values
Things we plan to add when possible:

  • Adding custom 2D art and icons
Things that are less likely to become available (we’re not saying they are impossible, but those would require a lot, so we can’t make any promises here):

  • 3D models
  • Visual effects
Q: About the event editor, on release will it be user friendly?

A:
There won’t be any changes to the event editor, but we do hope to compile some documentation for modding, and this will include some instructions for the editor.

Q: MoM’s manual and strategic guide was legendary. Tell me how the remake compares?

A:
There are no plans for a strategy guide. But, there is a manual in production. The new manual shares many aspects of the old one including some of the original text, when appropriate. How this will truly compare to the original can only be answered by you, the fans, once it is out!

Q: What’s next for MuHa?

A:
For the foreseeable future it is still filled with magic
1f609.svg
After that, who knows? We do feel a little nostalgic towards Thea, so we may yet return to the darkness in some form, some day…

Screenshot gallery​

keybindings.png
A list of key bindings (Alas, no, we cannot change them atm) is now available in the settings.
sjjj.png
The beams of light (yellow or red) now only show over locations you are yet to explore. Visited lairs only have a little sparkle over them now, like that keep on the left.
ggrrr.png
Units with enchantment on them now have a cool glow in the unit display on the left!
hhhhs.png
The Hydra in its final (we hope!) iteration, with three heads and three breath attacks, including one custom made for the purpose of the Hydra’s elevation
jsjjjj.png
On the rival Wizard Info screen, you can now also read the bio of the heroes
ahd.png
One down, three to go…
jjjssss.png
Defeating your foes and banishing their Wizard essence!
ajjjj.png
The Hall of Fame, where my meagre score can be seen by all…
 

Hagashager

Educated
Joined
Nov 24, 2022
Messages
513
I'm torn on this. I want an updated MoM. I'm replaying MoM right now using CoM but it's not exactly modern Civ.

What I'm seeing here though looks utterly soulless and brings very little that CoM doesn't already do better.

CoM is very well balanced and I enjoy it for that, but playing without special parameters (the boxes at the end of character gen) you're only winning strategy is pump out magical military units as fast possible and overwhelm the other wizards as fast as possible.

Baseline MoM, by contrast, is almost the inverse. Slow and steady wins the race and the AI is too stupid to notice.

This looks like baseline MoM from 1994 yet trying to look like Civ V.

Also, while I agree the remake looks painfully dull visually, you're kidding yourselves if you think the original MoM was comparatively unique to its contemporaries. MoM 1994 looks like Ultima, and Quest for Glory and Bard's Tale and every other Pixel-art-aping-1980s-DnD style of the early '90s. About the only games that tried to look halfway different were the M&M games.
 

Zeriel

Arcane
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Jun 17, 2012
Messages
13,462
I don't understand. If they were going to use 2D art for everything but the combat/map... why is the combat/map ugly 3D? Is it really THAT much cheaper?
 

Zeriel

Arcane
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Jun 17, 2012
Messages
13,462
Maybe old farts how missed MoM back in the days?

Old farts who missed MoM back in the days can easily take the time back just playing the original MoM (with brilliant Drake178's patch 1.60 as a cherry on top). What any of old farts can seek in modern MoM remakes is beyond my imagination, sorry.

Something like Age of Wonders 1 is a good starting point. Taking the soul/essence of Master of Magic and doing enough new, even if it's just content/art, that it is enjoyable anew. The problem, of course, as driven into the ground, the horse's bones broken down into fine bone dust, is that modern devs (who get the rights to the franchise anyway) cannot resist the siren call of using shitty, ugly 3D art that evokes nothing at all.

It's not necessarily a lack of modern capability in sprite or 2D artwork with soul, you can find tons of random indie games on Steam with bargain basement budgets that have a really striking 2D artstyle that could work just fine for a modern Master of Magic. It's simply a decision on the parts of all these devs to go with the laziest option.

Take off your boomer glasses, gentlemen, of course some ppl are going to play this. Fantasy general 2 has been a moderate success and its original game was even more obscure than original MoM. If it's good - ppl will like it and play it. Having the MOM IP is just a trick, something interesting to mention during live stream or some review. Let's be honest, most of original MOM players are already placed in homes for people with dementia, they won't buy the game, they can't even buy themselves a coffee from coffee machine.

As a person who loves 4X games - the UI, sound and graphics of MOM are really outdated after that ...30 years? It is a game from different era, UI is unusable on modern screens, it is not very efficient or good looking. Graphics are not the highest point of pixel art, it is just pixel... something. The gameplay is top notch, but the rest is not up to today's standards.

There's a lot of potential for Slytherin and Shitea Devs.

Come on, this is ridiculous. Even if you mean it as a joke, this is a reminder that most of us 80s/90s kids were around to play Master of Magic when it first came out and we're now only in our mid to late 30s. Actually prime gaming time and one of the most lucrative audiences for corporations, people old enough to have a bunch of disposable income and want their nostalgia pandered to. Too bad the companies don't know how to actually pander to said nostalgia, and just deliver pure crap instead.
 
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CthuluIsSpy

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On the internet, writing shit posts.
I kind of have mix feelings about this.
On one hand, having an updated MoM would be great because I thought it was a neat game, just really dated. Controlling units feel kind of awkward and panning the map doesn't feel great. Node and ruins defenses were also pretty nuts. Like, you could throw armies at them and you'd lose them, it was kind of bullshit.

On the other hand, MuHa can't optimize for shit. Thea 2 made my CPU and GPU fan go nuts and it's not exactly amazing looking, and the overall pacing and combat system wasn't to my liking. If they follow MoM's mechanics it might be fine but gameplay wise they might throw in tedium for the sake of tedium out of the belief it adds depth, because that's what Thea 2 felt like at times.

Also, why is your caster not casting? In MoM you had that nice cutscene of your wizard personally summoning monsters and acquiring spells. Why is it just a portrait this time? Are they too lazy to model a wizard?

What does the tactics screen look like? In MoM you had actual regiments of units, which I thought was a nice touch as it added a feeling of scale to the conflict. Are they bringing back blocks of units or is it just single models?
 
Self-Ejected

Dadd

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Messages
2,727
Everything looks worse. The original didn't look great either, but at least it had soul. The new art style looks thoroughly generic and uninteresting. Looking at all the recent remakes, it's nearly incredible how everyone is incapable of not fucking up everything.
 

CthuluIsSpy

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Messages
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Everything looks worse. The original didn't look great either, but at least it had soul. The new art style looks thoroughly generic and uninteresting. Looking at all the recent remakes, it's nearly incredible how everyone is incapable of not fucking up everything.
Yeah, it really does just look like Thea 2.
The fact they can't be arsed to model in an actual wizard casting spells and just has a shitty portrait on the wall instead should indicate how much they actually care about the remake.
 

Zboj Lamignat

Arcane
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
5,552
indicate how much they actually care about the remake.
Yup, that's the weirdest part of this whole affair. Like I've said as soon as news about this release hit the table: if you don't want to make an effort (and it's 100% obvious that they don't), then just a standard shitty remaster with some added qol and maybe some new wizards/units/spells/building seems like a much more sensible approach. But I guess it's almost 2023 and the slitherine honchos still think doing it like that will bring in new audience or something. Good luck with that.
 
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CthuluIsSpy

Arcane
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Messages
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On the internet, writing shit posts.
indicate how much they actually care about the remake.
Yup, that's the weirdest pair of this whole affair. Like I've said as soon as news about this release hit the table: if you don't want to make an effort (and it's 100% obvious that they don't), then just a standard shitty remaster with some added qol and maybe some new wizards/units/spells/building seems like a much more sensible approach. But I guess it's almost 2023 and the slitherine honchos still think doing it like that will bring in new audience or something. Good luck with that.
Which is dumb, because you don't need flashy unity graphics or whatever to bring in a "new audience"
Just look at the CnC Remaster, which apparently sold pretty well. They kept the style from '95, they just cleaned it up and added some QoL changes.

Now, I understand it if they might have thought that the graphics were too dated to "clean up", but then they should have gone for a modern pixel art style sort of thing as a close approximation, not make it look like Thea 2. Or Civ 6. Or Age of Wonders 3.
 
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Zboj Lamignat

Arcane
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
5,552
Looking like nuCiV could probably spell success for them IF they were serious (mostly meaning budget- and effort-wise) about it. But the funny part about these projects is that they just always end up sitting on the (ugly and decrepit) fence - not looking particularly sexy for the actual, potential fanbase plus obviously getting completely ignored by thisisthenewshit crowd from the other side.
 

InD_ImaginE

Arcane
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Messages
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Pathfinder: Wrath
I get the complain on the map but do we have 3D Overmap/4X 3D map that actually looks good today and not just plain generic? It feels all 4X 3D overmap is just mostly same variation of modern Civ style.
 

Higher Game

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Everything looks worse. The original didn't look great either, but at least it had soul. The new art style looks thoroughly generic and uninteresting. Looking at all the recent remakes, it's nearly incredible how everyone is incapable of not fucking up everything.
Yeah, it really does just look like Thea 2.
The fact they can't be arsed to model in an actual wizard casting spells and just has a shitty portrait on the wall instead should indicate how much they actually care about the remake.

The Thea games are awesome games, though. I'm betting on the "less is more" angle, that they're not being flashy for good reasons.
 
Self-Ejected

Dadd

Self-Ejected
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Aug 20, 2022
Messages
2,727
Generic = Terrible

The worst kind of terrible.
 

AdamReith

Magister
Patron
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Messages
2,109
Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
Man, imagine if those resources had just been spent on an OpenXcom style engine rewrite that supported modern rendering and easy modding.

This feels similar to the master of orion reboot, when will they learn?
 

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