Official Codex Discord Server

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain

Discussion in 'General Gaming' started by Morgoth, Mar 27, 2013.

  1. ropulos Cipher

    ropulos
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2015
    Messages:
    827
    This might not be exact, but I remember it this way (daylight):

    prone -> invisible if you're more than 10m away from enemy, will cast suspicion in the 6-10m range
    crouching -> as far as I know, camo only acts in this stance. You gain no benefit from being prone or standing. With good camo, range of detection will be less than 15m (but maybe you can get away with it), suspicion between 15-20, safe beyond 20m. With bad camo, all these distances increase of course (it's a binary, you either have the correct camo or not, forget progressive systems like 3 and 4)
    standing -> suspicion between 20-30, safe beyond that
    running -> you'll get spotted if distance from the enemy's sight is less than 40m

    Hiding in/behind bushes makes you completely invisible. For some reason, this trick only works in Africa, Afghan bushes don't give any bonus. At night-time, all these distances decrease (remember to stay away from lights or daytime rules will apply). Black Ocelot camo is hilariously broken at night, making the game a walk in the park.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2020
    ^ Top  
  2. cretin Savant

    cretin
    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2019
    Messages:
    498
    regarding the discussion on systems:
    https://www.reddit.com/r/metalgears...do_we_know_exactly_how_camouflage_works_mgsv/

    it would appear there is a lot going on under the hood that players might otherwise assume just isnt considered due to no immediate feedback. Personally, I like the absence of the camo index, because as ultimanecat points out, its not only tedious to be switching out camos constantly but also extremely gamey, as a single given instance might have 5 disparate tilesets that made a huge difference to your camoflage rating. MGSV seems to me to have a much more realistic appreciation of camoflage: you pick one for the mission, giving consideration to the most dominant type of terrain you think you will be encountering (e.g if its predominantly sand, wear a sand camo, even if the main objective takes place inside of a building), and knowing full well that a camoflage pattern uniform is of limited utility - its not going to make you invisible, just harder to spot when you're still.

    Personally in my MGSV playthroughs i use camo uniforms simply because i feel like the sneaking suits are just OP as fuck. The game's stealth becomes somewhat trivialized when you can just jog right up to enemies and draw down on them, or jog right past a group and no one will hear you.
     
    • Prestigious Prestigious x 1
    ^ Top  
  3. Average Manatee Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Average Manatee
    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    10,623
    That's interesting. I've definitely found that camo effectiveness seems quite limited in MGS5.

    That explains a lot. Looks like a pretty bad system. Depending on what you are doing camo might do nothing, only affect detection, or only affect suspicion. Camo index was clearly superior, just not allowing the player to swap suits constantly would have been the better choice.
     
    ^ Top  
  4. cretin Savant

    cretin
    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2019
    Messages:
    498
    perhaps its just my odd perspective, but im really not bothered by camo patterns being kind of useless because they are kind of useless irl unless you're in dense foliage and being completely still. Pictured, US Navy SEALs in Vietnam wearing...yep, blue jeans. Nope, not a joke. Common practice.

    [​IMG]


    On the other hand, i completely get and accept the argument that the camo system could be better in innumerable ways. I just dont feel that bothered by it not mattering much.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  5. ERYFKRAD Barbarian Patron

    ERYFKRAD
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2012
    Messages:
    18,452
    Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Once I got the leather jacket I haven't even bothered with camo anyway.
     
    • Prestigious Prestigious x 2
    • Sweat gathers upon my brow, let me dab it Sweat gathers upon my brow, let me dab it x 1
    ^ Top  
  6. ropulos Cipher

    ropulos
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2015
    Messages:
    827
    I only deploy with the Tuxedo, for maximum realism (I mean, it's the game's hard mode!)
     
    • Prestigious Prestigious x 2
    ^ Top  
  7. Alienman Arcane Patron

    Alienman
    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2014
    Messages:
    11,353
    Location:
    Mars
    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
    Naked Snake of course!
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Prestigious Prestigious x 1
    ^ Top  
  8. ERYFKRAD Barbarian Patron

    ERYFKRAD
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2012
    Messages:
    18,452
    Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Yeah it's functionally identical to the leather jacket. No camo, no muffling of sound but 10/10 looks.
     
    ^ Top  
  9. Gilius Thunderhead Educated

    Gilius Thunderhead
    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2020
    Messages:
    52
    Agree 100% on the sound. It's not implemented correctly and it will often confuse you. You hear a jeep's engine rumbling in the distance but you can't tell how far it is, or which direction steps are coming from. The game was made for consoles where you sit in front of a TV. I don't think Kojima ever played Thief.

    Regarding information gathering, I think a distinction should be made between different types of stealth gameplay. MGS5 is different from both Splinter Cell and Thief and even from earlier titles in the series, as it's solely about military infiltration. That includes observing from a distance, often for very long times, gathering all possible information with your own two eyes and keeping it all in your memory, then crawling your way to a new spot where you repeat the process. It's all about method, calculating risk, making decisions that are often very "tactical" in nature. I think MG5's gameplay is at its purest when you approach it this way.

    On the other hand, when people talk about stealth games they mean sneaking behind guards, hiding in the closet, using shadow to their advantage, often in very cramped spaces instead of open ground and nature. Both approaches have a lot in common but they are fundamentally different. You wouldn't crawl in Thief, nor use camo to blend in, as being seen or not is a lot more binary. Gathering info using gadgets makes sense for Sam Fisher, because he can't use a vantage point to see the entire scenario the same way you can climb a rock in Afghanistan and just take your time with binoculars.

    There aren't many interior spaces in MG5 and their implementation is not perfect. I found it's very difficult to navigate a room without making noise by accidentally rubbing against an object. In any case, you're at your most exposed inside a room instead of outside laying down on the mud, and it's all about going in and out as quickly as possible.

    A camo marker would've been quite useful. I think MGS4 got it right for the most part (it was also an extraordinary stealth game at certain points), but Kojima probably decided to go for maximum "imershun" (nevermind stupid shit like the iDroid). As it stands, you have to use trial and error. At the edge of their visual space, guards will just go "huh?", which in most cases let's you retreat without being investigated, although this isn't always possible. If you're playing with increased guard sight, this can make the game easier if you exploit it, as getting a single guard to go out on his own, away from the sight of others, let's you take him out at your leisure.

    My biggest issue with MG5 is that it gives you amazing tools to play with, following a certain premise, but then doesn't go all the way. No quick save; score penalties for taking your time; annoying action sequences and boss fights, etc. I guess Kojima was against making a pure simulation. Too bad, because many elements are already in place for it, starting with that incredible engine.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  10. Machocruz Arcane

    Machocruz
    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,387
    Location:
    Hyperborea
    For any MGS to make sense as a stealth game , the highest difficulty and self imposed rules are recommended. Otherwise you are playing an action game where you can sneak (but don't need to), which is how I've viewed the series since MG on NES. As I remember, "Stealth game " wasn't a part of people's language in the 80s. MG was just called an action game . An emulation of the movies of the time where the hero sneaks around until he is inevitably discovered, then he grabs an M60 and lays waste to a small army. It was never meant to be "pure" stealth as we think of it post- Thief

    I think that is how MG games are best put to use, considering the weapon porn in some of them. Worrying about sneak purity on a first playthrough has you missing out on a lot of the fun, if you never intend to replay missions . Especially in PP where Snake is a full blown super soldier who can hang with the X-Men, and has equipment at his disposal that would make James Bond AND Bruce Wayne jealous. The amount of shit Snake can do in this game is unequalled*.

    The Sneaking Suit is OP, that's why I call it the 100% suit. It's for completing all objectives in a single playthrough of a mission with no alerts as fast as possible. I never wear it for normal play.

    One cool detail they did implement is that you can downgrade your equipment in the mission prep screen to earlier research levels, so that you can play as an almost fresh Snake.

    Maybe one day we'll start seeing PP-likes, with some going towards simulation. There is too much good ideas in the game to never be seen again. Much more potential than Diablo, Dark Souls, or any others developers love to emulate.

    *If they would have tightened up some other things, this game would have been vastly better than Witcher or Bloodborne that year, which are primitive in their character control. MGSV represents real progress in the medium.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    ^ Top  
  11. Zombra An iron rock in the river of blood and evil Patron

    Zombra
    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2004
    Messages:
    8,728
    Location:
    Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
    Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    I played a few minutes of Gravity Squad and I'm already confused. The nonlethal knockout only lasts for like 2 minutes, but even if you interrogate a guy before KOing him, he completely forgets about it when he wakes up and doesn't sound the alarm.

    Clearly I have much to learn about this disturbing universe.
     
    • Shit Shit x 1
    ^ Top  
  12. ERYFKRAD Barbarian Patron

    ERYFKRAD
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2012
    Messages:
    18,452
    Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Judicious use of camo is far more effective.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  13. ERYFKRAD Barbarian Patron

    ERYFKRAD
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2012
    Messages:
    18,452
    Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    There are degrees of effectiveness. The 5 combo punch takes them out longer.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    ^ Top  
  14. ropulos Cipher

    ropulos
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2015
    Messages:
    827
    That's at the beginning. When you do it more times, they'll start reporting it to HQ. Same when an enemy founds a mate "sleeping", at first they'll think nothing about it, after some time they'll alarm the outpost. That's because of the game's "revenge" system, meant to adapt to your tactics.
     
    • Interesting Interesting x 1
    ^ Top  
  15. ekrolo2 Educated

    ekrolo2
    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2019
    Messages:
    83
    One mod that helps out with this is Ultimate Phantom Pain, enemies are far, far more alert of their surroundings. Their equipment is stronger from the start meaning you can't just headshot them to sleep and then fulton everyone out. There's also more of them about meaning you've got to pay attention to more things at once. Thankfully, the mod also lets you quick save your game so you don't have to face increased difficulty with just the standard checkpoint system.
     
    • incline incline x 1
    ^ Top  
  16. Machocruz Arcane

    Machocruz
    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,387
    Location:
    Hyperborea
    I've found most of the camos in the same ballpark of effectiveness as SS under most normal conditions, but it has the edge for getting shit done quick at night due to silent running.
     
    ^ Top  
  17. Zombra An iron rock in the river of blood and evil Patron

    Zombra
    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2004
    Messages:
    8,728
    Location:
    Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
    Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    I guess it all makes sense since the game takes place in 1984, several years before zipties and sticking a rag in a guy's mouth were invented. I'll just kill them all I guess!
     
    • Prestigious Prestigious x 1
    ^ Top  
  18. Joseph Stalin Totally not Auraculum

    Joseph Stalin
    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2020
    Messages:
    758
    Soo... is it accepted canon that Huey did, indeed, do nothing wrong?
     
    • No No x 3
    ^ Top  
  19. ERYFKRAD Barbarian Patron

    ERYFKRAD
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2012
    Messages:
    18,452
    Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Nah, besides, he's an ultra whiny bitch.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  20. Joseph Stalin Totally not Auraculum

    Joseph Stalin
    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2020
    Messages:
    758
    Still better than Strangelove - cucking her imaginary girlfriend with Huey, building a robot waifu replica, and then begging him to kill her whilst inside said waifu.

    Oh... and LARPing that said son is her dead fake GF's through the power of magic.
     
    ^ Top  

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.