Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain

[cretin]

regarding the discussion on systems:
https://www.reddit.com/r/metalgears...do_we_know_exactly_how_camouflage_works_mgsv/

it would appear there is a lot going on under the hood that players might otherwise assume just isnt considered due to no immediate feedback. Personally, I like the absence of the camo index, because as ultimanecat points out, its not only tedious to be switching out camos constantly but also extremely gamey, as a single given instance might have 5 disparate tilesets that made a huge difference to your camoflage rating. MGSV seems to me to have a much more realistic appreciation of camoflage: you pick one for the mission, giving consideration to the most dominant type of terrain you think you will be encountering (e.g if its predominantly sand, wear a sand camo, even if the main objective takes place inside of a building), and knowing full well that a camoflage pattern uniform is of limited utility - its not going to make you invisible, just harder to spot when you're still.

Personally in my MGSV playthroughs i use camo uniforms simply because i feel like the sneaking suits are just OP as fuck. The game's stealth becomes somewhat trivialized when you can just jog right up to enemies and draw down on them, or jog right past a group and no one will hear you.

 

[Average Manatee]

I prefer the Ultimate Phantom Pain mod to Infinite Heaven, as it gives you control over the value of camo. I'm playing with guard sight x3, so increasing camo effectiveness to 600-800% is a necessity for realism.

That's interesting. I've definitely found that camo effectiveness seems quite limited in MGS5.

regarding the discussion on systems:
https://www.reddit.com/r/metalgears...do_we_know_exactly_how_camouflage_works_mgsv/

it would appear there is a lot going on under the hood that players might otherwise assume just isnt considered due to no immediate feedback. Personally, I like the absence of the camo index, because as ultimanecat points out, its not only tedious to be switching out camos constantly but also extremely gamey, as a single given instance might have 5 disparate tilesets that made a huge difference to your camoflage rating. MGSV seems to me to have a much more realistic appreciation of camoflage: you pick one for the mission, giving consideration to the most dominant type of terrain you think you will be encountering (e.g if its predominantly sand, wear a sand camo, even if the main objective takes place inside of a building), and knowing full well that a camoflage pattern uniform is of limited utility - its not going to make you invisible, just harder to spot when you're still.

Personally in my MGSV playthroughs i use camo uniforms simply because i feel like the sneaking suits are just OP as fuck. The game's stealth becomes somewhat trivialized when you can just jog right up to enemies and draw down on them, or jog right past a group and no one will hear you.

That explains a lot. Looks like a pretty bad system. Depending on what you are doing camo might do nothing, only affect detection, or only affect suspicion. Camo index was clearly superior, just not allowing the player to swap suits constantly would have been the better choice.

 

[cretin]

perhaps its just my odd perspective, but im really not bothered by camo patterns being kind of useless because they are kind of useless irl unless you're in dense foliage and being completely still. Pictured, US Navy SEALs in Vietnam wearing...yep, blue jeans. Nope, not a joke. Common practice.

On the other hand, i completely get and accept the argument that the camo system could be better in innumerable ways. I just dont feel that bothered by it not mattering much.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Once I got the leather jacket I haven't even bothered with camo anyway.

 

[†††]

I only deploy with the Tuxedo, for maximum realism (I mean, it's the game's hard mode!)

 

[Alienman]

Naked Snake of course!

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I only deploy with the Tuxedo, for maximum realism (I mean, it's the game's hard mode!)

Yeah it's functionally identical to the leather jacket. No camo, no muffling of sound but 10/10 looks.

 

[Gilius Thunderhead]

The biggest problem, in my opinion, that this game has (from a stealth perspective) is the lack of feedback and information gathering systems and tools.
You never know how visible you are, how various factors like distance, stance, time of day, camouflage, terrain, vegetation, affect your visibility, it's all just a guessing game. Apparently the guide offers some values for each of these but if you watch tests recorded on YouTube they don't seem to hold up. Basically nobody knows with absolute clarity and with contradicting information and lack of mechanical transparency it's just one big coin toss.
About trial and error, yeah, they kinda are. However, simple things like the drone and sticky cameras in Splinter Cell Blacklist, the owl in Far Cry Primal, the scouting orb in Thief 2, the disguises in Hitman, the cameras and drones in Watch Dogs etc. allow you to gather information without exposing yourself. With that information you can plan better. And execute that plan perfectly. This whole process takes more time than usual but it severely cuts down the trial and error and by consequence, save scumming. Phantom Pain has no feedback system and no information gathering tools.
In Thief the sound propagation system allows you to tell whether there are NPCs in your immediate vicinity, their general direction, how close are they relative to you, what surface they're walking on. That's a well made feedback system. And that's just the sound aspect of the game. You also have a visibility gem supporting multiple states, not the binary crap in modern games.
I haven't played the previous MGS games but from what I've read they had a camouflage index, basically a light gem equivalent. Why did they remove that in Phantom Pain? Anyway whatever. It's a good game regardless and it also has elements of immersive sims so at least that's something.

Agree 100% on the sound. It's not implemented correctly and it will often confuse you. You hear a jeep's engine rumbling in the distance but you can't tell how far it is, or which direction steps are coming from. The game was made for consoles where you sit in front of a TV. I don't think Kojima ever played Thief.

Regarding information gathering, I think a distinction should be made between different types of stealth gameplay. MGS5 is different from both Splinter Cell and Thief and even from earlier titles in the series, as it's solely about military infiltration. That includes observing from a distance, often for very long times, gathering all possible information with your own two eyes and keeping it all in your memory, then crawling your way to a new spot where you repeat the process. It's all about method, calculating risk, making decisions that are often very "tactical" in nature. I think MG5's gameplay is at its purest when you approach it this way.

On the other hand, when people talk about stealth games they mean sneaking behind guards, hiding in the closet, using shadow to their advantage, often in very cramped spaces instead of open ground and nature. Both approaches have a lot in common but they are fundamentally different. You wouldn't crawl in Thief, nor use camo to blend in, as being seen or not is a lot more binary. Gathering info using gadgets makes sense for Sam Fisher, because he can't use a vantage point to see the entire scenario the same way you can climb a rock in Afghanistan and just take your time with binoculars.

There aren't many interior spaces in MG5 and their implementation is not perfect. I found it's very difficult to navigate a room without making noise by accidentally rubbing against an object. In any case, you're at your most exposed inside a room instead of outside laying down on the mud, and it's all about going in and out as quickly as possible.

A camo marker would've been quite useful. I think MGS4 got it right for the most part (it was also an extraordinary stealth game at certain points), but Kojima probably decided to go for maximum "imershun" (nevermind stupid shit like the iDroid). As it stands, you have to use trial and error. At the edge of their visual space, guards will just go "huh?", which in most cases let's you retreat without being investigated, although this isn't always possible. If you're playing with increased guard sight, this can make the game easier if you exploit it, as getting a single guard to go out on his own, away from the sight of others, let's you take him out at your leisure.

My biggest issue with MG5 is that it gives you amazing tools to play with, following a certain premise, but then doesn't go all the way. No quick save; score penalties for taking your time; annoying action sequences and boss fights, etc. I guess Kojima was against making a pure simulation. Too bad, because many elements are already in place for it, starting with that incredible engine.

 

[Machocruz]

For any MGS to make sense as a stealth game , the highest difficulty and self imposed rules are recommended. Otherwise you are playing an action game where you can sneak (but don't need to), which is how I've viewed the series since MG on NES. As I remember, "Stealth game " wasn't a part of people's language in the 80s. MG was just called an action game . An emulation of the movies of the time where the hero sneaks around until he is inevitably discovered, then he grabs an M60 and lays waste to a small army. It was never meant to be "pure" stealth as we think of it post- Thief

I think that is how MG games are best put to use, considering the weapon porn in some of them. Worrying about sneak purity on a first playthrough has you missing out on a lot of the fun, if you never intend to replay missions . Especially in PP where Snake is a full blown super soldier who can hang with the X-Men, and has equipment at his disposal that would make James Bond AND Bruce Wayne jealous. The amount of shit Snake can do in this game is unequalled*.

The Sneaking Suit is OP, that's why I call it the 100% suit. It's for completing all objectives in a single playthrough of a mission with no alerts as fast as possible. I never wear it for normal play.

One cool detail they did implement is that you can downgrade your equipment in the mission prep screen to earlier research levels, so that you can play as an almost fresh Snake.

Maybe one day we'll start seeing PP-likes, with some going towards simulation. There is too much good ideas in the game to never be seen again. Much more potential than Diablo, Dark Souls, or any others developers love to emulate.

*If they would have tightened up some other things, this game would have been vastly better than Witcher or Bloodborne that year, which are primitive in their character control. MGSV represents real progress in the medium.

 

[Zombra]

I played a few minutes of Gravity Squad and I'm already confused. The nonlethal knockout only lasts for like 2 minutes, but even if you interrogate a guy before KOing him, he completely forgets about it when he wakes up and doesn't sound the alarm.

Clearly I have much to learn about this disturbing universe.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

The Sneaking Suit is OP,

Judicious use of camo is far more effective.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

The nonlethal knockout only lasts for like 2 minutes,

There are degrees of effectiveness. The 5 combo punch takes them out longer.

 

[†††]

The nonlethal knockout only lasts for like 2 minutes, but even if you interrogate a guy before KOing him, he completely forgets about it when he wakes up and doesn't sound the alarm.

That's at the beginning. When you do it more times, they'll start reporting it to HQ. Same when an enemy founds a mate "sleeping", at first they'll think nothing about it, after some time they'll alarm the outpost. That's because of the game's "revenge" system, meant to adapt to your tactics.

 

[ekrolo2]

For any MGS to make sense as a stealth game , the highest difficulty and self imposed rules are recommended.

One mod that helps out with this is Ultimate Phantom Pain, enemies are far, far more alert of their surroundings. Their equipment is stronger from the start meaning you can't just headshot them to sleep and then fulton everyone out. There's also more of them about meaning you've got to pay attention to more things at once. Thankfully, the mod also lets you quick save your game so you don't have to face increased difficulty with just the standard checkpoint system.

 

[Machocruz]

The Sneaking Suit is OP,

Judicious use of camo is far more effective.

I've found most of the camos in the same ballpark of effectiveness as SS under most normal conditions, but it has the edge for getting shit done quick at night due to silent running.

 

[Zombra]

The nonlethal knockout only lasts for like 2 minutes, but even if you interrogate a guy before KOing him, he completely forgets about it when he wakes up and doesn't sound the alarm.

That's at the beginning. When you do it more times, they'll start reporting it to HQ. Same when an enemy founds a mate "sleeping", at first they'll think nothing about it, after some time they'll alarm the outpost. That's because of the game's "revenge" system, meant to adapt to your tactics.

I guess it all makes sense since the game takes place in 1984, several years before zipties and sticking a rag in a guy's mouth were invented. I'll just kill them all I guess!

 

[Joseph Stalin]

Soo... is it accepted canon that Huey did, indeed, do nothing wrong?

 

[Caim]

Soo... is it accepted canon that Huey did, indeed, do nothing wrong?

He killed himself after finding out he was being cucked by his own son, so he at least did SOMETHING right.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Soo... is it accepted canon that Huey did, indeed, do nothing wrong?

Nah, besides, he's an ultra whiny bitch.

 

[Joseph Stalin]

Soo... is it accepted canon that Huey did, indeed, do nothing wrong?

He killed himself after finding out he was being cucked by his own son, so he at least did SOMETHING right.

Still better than Strangelove - cucking her imaginary girlfriend with Huey, building a robot waifu replica, and then begging him to kill her whilst inside said waifu.

Oh... and LARPing that said son is her dead fake GF's through the power of magic.

 

[JDR13]

So the Definitive Edition is super cheap right now, and I'm thinking about getting it.

How connected to the prior games in the series is it? Would it be confusing to someone who hasn't played a Metal Gear game since the PS1?

 

[J_C]

So the Definitive Edition is super cheap right now, and I'm thinking about getting it.

How connected to the prior games in the series is it? Would it be confusing to someone who hasn't played a Metal Gear game since the PS1?

No, you can play it, most things are explained in the game anyway.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

How connected to the prior games in the series is it? Would it be confusing to someone who hasn't played a Metal Gear game since the PS1?

The question is nuncupatory.

 

[cvv]

So the Definitive Edition is super cheap right now, and I'm thinking about getting it.

How connected to the prior games in the series is it? Would it be confusing to someone who hasn't played a Metal Gear game since the PS1?

Yes it would but only because the story - and the entire MGS lore for that matter - is a retarded, tangled mess that doesn't make a lick of sense. Just ignore the braindead writing and enjoy just the gameplay, you'll have a phenomenal time.

 

[JDR13]

How connected to the prior games in the series is it? Would it be confusing to someone who hasn't played a Metal Gear game since the PS1?

The question is nuncupatory.

Don't use big words like that. It makes my brain hurt.