Atlus Metaphor: ReFantazio Thread - Atlus JRPG by Persona Veterans

[RegionalHobo]

Hmm, criticizing the plot and then bringing SMT V into the discussion. Really weird.

SMT V barely has a plot, Metaphor has a abysmal one post half of the game. I'll give the advantage for Metaphor here , yeah, but not by that much.

SMT V has superior exploration and demons are much better than archetypes. With demons you don t have to use 3x recolors of the same monsters to fill your game too.

Metaphor has a superior setting, the difficulty is better ( both at hard ) and the social links are mostly good.

Imo both are at the same level. With the canon of vengeance smt V improves a bit in it s shittier parts, which imo makes it a better game overall.

As i ve said i think both games are inferior to Persona. And really far from the quality of devil survivor, smt iv and strange journey even with the obvious limitations of handhelds

 

[Haplo]

Hmm, criticizing the plot and then bringing SMT V into the discussion. Really weird.

SMT V barely has a plot, Metaphor has a abysmal one post half of the game. I'll give the advantage for Metaphor here , yeah, but not by that much.

SMT V has superior exploration and demons are much better than archetypes. With demons you don t have to use 3x recolors of the same monsters to fill your game too.

Metaphor has a superior setting, the difficulty is better ( both at hard ) and the social links are mostly good.

Imo both are at the same level. With the canon of vengeance smt V improves a bit in it s shittier parts, which imo makes it a better game overall.

As i ve said i think both games are inferior to Persona. And really far from the quality of devil survivor, smt iv and strange journey even with the obvious limitations of handhelds

I haven't seen the 2nd half of Metaphor's plot yet. As I understand, there is a pretty major twist or 2 at least (one was already spoiled to me).

I'm inclined to agree on most other points, but I strongly disagree about the superior exploration in SMT V.
Sure, the 3D maps are pretty smart and generally look better then Metaphor locations.
However its basically a relaxed tourism and sight-seeing, you're never in any sort of danger, there is no pressure, no attrition at all. Meanwhile Metaphor can be pretty punishing and on Hard finishing a bigger map on a single day may require streching one's efficiency and resources thin. Also, while sight-seeing is nice, I feel some nostalgia for classic style dungeons, with levers, secret passages, ladders, tight openings to squeeze trough a wall and so on.
The 3 "dungeons" in SMT V are a complete joke (although one does include a decent gimmicky trick, I suppose). And again, there is NO attrition, pressure or risk there.
Also the rewards for exploration are more valuable in Metaphor, as equipment actually matters there.

The difficulty is MUCH better in Metaphor. Nearly free, abundant Spyglasses plus purchasable Dampers were a mistake.

As for Persona, I haven't played it, so maybe shouldn't comment. However, I've heard about braindead easy combat AND even more focus on talking, social links, romances and so on. Also a school setting. And randomly generated dungeons prior to P5. Therefore, basing on my limited knowledge, I'd instantly rate Metaphor A LOT higher then any Persona game.

 

[Mrowak]

How hard is hard really? I've been craving some challenge, and I was wondering If I should nick a save from online, so I could unlock Regicide right away.

On hard, it is quite hard at the beginning when it comes to resource management and boss fights. By the end of the game only boss fights are hard, but they are difficult in the sense you are meant to figure out the puzzle - how to defeat the enemy before it rolls out endless waves of attacks. E.g. take advantage of block and dodge mechanics - which makes the enemy lose actions, or outright repel the attacks, or use your abilities to create weakness in enemy and take advantage of that, etc.

Any info on how does that compare to regicide?

Sorry, not yet. I am near the end of of the campaign - finished all optional bosses, only the main bad remains. My impression is in NG+ you start with all items from original campaign and all archetypes you previously unlocked, your stats are crappier, and enemies get extra action which is +2 actions when compared to normal difficulty. So, it seems to me much of difficulty will depend on how many archetypes you unlocked in your previous game, and what items you transfered.

If the endgame is any indicator I expect that your builds will have to focus on fast rushes against enemies and finding ways to make them waste their turns. This would require fairly good understanding of mechanics of the game.

IMO, hard is plenty satisfying, at least for me - it is not a cakewalk like any final fantasy, but it does not force you to waste your time with needless grinding, like many other Megaten games.

 

[Haplo]

My understanding was that archetype unlocks do not transfer and are still locked behind social links.
Archetype experience/levels do.
Unless I misunderstood.

 

[Mrowak]

My understanding was that archetype unlocks do not transfer and are still locked behind social links.
Archetype experience/levels do.
Unless I misunderstood.

Yeah, I guess you are right - it is I who misunderstood this.

 

[Haplo]

Am now in 3rd town. Haven't had so much fun with an jrpg ever since I've played Final Fantasy 7 as a teenager.

 

[MasPingon]

Am now in 3rd town. Haven't had so much fun with an jrpg ever since I've played Final Fantasy 7 as a teenager.

Yes, that's the point where the spell is broken by the most retarded plot twist in gaming history.

 

[Dopparn]

Finished the game yesterday.

Does anyone feel they cut like 1/2 of the game? There's only like 4 or 5 main dungeons, sure there's a lot of side quest dungeons but they're all literally copy pasted. You go up the same fucking tower 3 times. You go to the magic academy and it's just for one boss fight, you can't even explore it.

And the story... Persona and SMT don't have the best story but they're alright, decent. The story in this game can be non-sensical sometimes, so many plot holes.

Overall this game felt like a downgrade over Persona/SMT. I don't know if an improved version can fix everything, but it definitely needs one.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

In fact I find the UI overdesigned too this time around, to a larger degree than in Persona 5 even - it straight up veers into annoying smudges territory

Well, the """problem""" is that P5 had great UI design. Why, as a developer, would you go back to something less intuitive (inferior) with your new games when you already have something great at your hands?

While in Persona the style was consistent, in Methaphor is inconsistent and thematically makes no sense with the context. And "intuitive" doesn't means overdesigned.

 

[Haplo]

Am now in 3rd town. Haven't had so much fun with an jrpg ever since I've played Final Fantasy 7 as a teenager.

Yes, that's the point where the spell is broken by the most retarded plot twist in gaming history.

Am now in the 4th town. Still having fun. Haven't seen anything out of place for a jrpg yet.

Sure its very naive at times, but the setting feels very fresh and the fantasy is strong in this one. And the characters are all pretty great.

The only serious issue so far are the repeatable dungeons and mob reuse. A bit lazy in this aspect.

 

[Yosharian]

The only serious issue so far are the repeatable dungeons and mob reuse. A bit lazy in this aspect.

I found the dungeons in P5 a bit repetitive also

 

[Yosharian]

I'm just saying that it's a common criticism of this type of game imo

They can't seem to get the dungeons right, it's just endless 3D geometric corridors filled with monsters to fight

 

[Haplo]

I'm just saying that it's a common criticism of this type of game imo

They can't seem to get the dungeons right, it's just endless 3D geometric corridors filled with monsters to fight

That's okay for me. Problem when the design is lazy and repetitive and there's only a handful of mobs.

That's my only real gripe with the game so far, though.
Otherwise, an awesome trip. I greatly enjoy the narrative, the style and the characters. Importantly, the combat difficulty is just right for me (on Hard).

 

[Mrowak]

Am now in 3rd town. Haven't had so much fun with an jrpg ever since I've played Final Fantasy 7 as a teenager.

Yes, that's the point where the spell is broken by the most retarded plot twist in gaming history.

Am now in the 4th town. Still having fun. Haven't seen anything out of place for a jrpg yet.

Sure its very naive at times, but the setting feels very fresh and the fantasy is strong in this one. And the characters are all pretty great.

The only serious issue so far are the repeatable dungeons and mob reuse. A bit lazy in this aspect.

I have a problem with 2 major plot points in this game.

spoiler

The fact that when Louis "dies" for the first time, NO ONE mentions what happened to his head on the flying island thingie (if it remained on the thing, it should mean he is still alive, or at least make parties involved suspect that).
The other thing is of course the fact that you are the prince, by some fantasy projection bullshit that overwrote Gallica's memory and some shit. That was one impressive asspull.

If not for those two plot points, the story would have been solid gold. Alas.

But I have to say - the themes of this story - what this story is about - are great. This is the kind of story especially young person needs to experience, to learn to fight with self doubt... and, dare I say it? ... Melancholia.

Add to that a really good gameplay and we have a winner. I too think this is one of the best jRPGs in recent years.

 

[Mrowak]

While in Persona the style was consistent, in Methaphor is inconsistent and thematically makes no sense with the context. And "intuitive" doesn't means overdesigned.

It is stylish as fuck. And style is awesome, especially if there is substance to back it up. Me like.

 

[Haplo]

Am now in 3rd town. Haven't had so much fun with an jrpg ever since I've played Final Fantasy 7 as a teenager.

Yes, that's the point where the spell is broken by the most retarded plot twist in gaming history.

Finally finished Opera House. In fifth town. I do feel the Devs overdid the dramatics and the triple faint a little.

Still I don't think its entirely out of place in a jrpg. And so far I've liked the follow up. And the Rella arc was really nice IMO. Despite the obviously cut Magic Academy...

Plus I've now unlocked Elite classes for all of my old core team. Next step: win arena for the neat sword.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

While in Persona the style was consistent, in Methaphor is inconsistent and thematically makes no sense with the context. And "intuitive" doesn't means overdesigned.

It is stylish as fuck. And style is awesome, especially if there is substance to back it up. Me like.

I was speaking about the UI style that is inconsistent with the setting of the game.

 

[Reinhardt]

dropped it around the time when you need to sneak louis ship. didn't deleted, because maybe i will finish it one day, but... oh, who i'm kidding. i have games from 2018 waiting that maybe one day i'll finish them.

 

[Haplo]

dropped it around the time when you need to sneak louis ship. didn't deleted, because maybe i will finish it one day, but... oh, who i'm kidding. i have games from 2018 waiting that maybe one day i'll finish them.

Well, the upside is you team up with Junah afterwards. Who is a far cooler character then I expected.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Finally got around to trying the demo of this thing and didn't finish the demo because I decided to just pick up the full game. The presentation of this thing in the visuals and music, etc. is pretty incredible.

I'm less sold on the combat so far, but as an overall package, it pretty much blew me away.

 

[Tigranes]

I have played this game. Combat/dungeon is pretty fun, would be much better with more proper late game challenges. Writing is reasonably cute at start and progressively becomes an insult to the neurons.

Hard is interesting enough and well paced to not require grinding. I think there's a point later where you get huge power gains from stacking One Big Nuke (Masquerade Charge + Peerless Stonecleaver, for example, or Merchant Attack with crit stack), so that most other tools & enemy shenanigans start to become ineffective. I also wonder if it isn't a bit too easy to put up Tetrakarn/Makarakan equivalents (e.g. Knight tree + Utilitarian Manual = you can put up both guards on whole party every turn). That's where the relative lack of big late game bosses comes in, compared to SMT5. Depending on how you play you may hardly get to even use the final archetypes. But it's all pretty fun.

Writing depends on your tolerances for typical over the top saccharine Sunday School JRPGs. I willingly installed a JRPG so I deserve what I get, but I just wish they get off the whole "the only way to raise the stakes halfway through is to throw out everything established beforehand and switch genres completely." Pretty much nothing you saw in the first half matters and all the rules change. When you have too many twists, nobody cares. You see Important Person die and immediately think "probably isn't dead / actually had a phylactery / was never a human but actually a Squirrel God Spirit born from a meat pie". And everyone sucks your dick so hard it's a wonder your own party members don't faint the moment they see you each morning, it's like a twelve year old's wet dream. I'd say pretty much every scene from around Tropical Island is a waste of time and you're just there for the fights.

Spoiler

You fight hard to save prince. Turns out you could never have saved prince. Turns out doesn't matter if prince dies no problem. You work real hard to climb up the very contrived election rules. Turns out most of those rules doesn't matter. Oh and there's random large scale mind control. You get all into a story that's supposed to be about political legitimacy, social anxieties, royalty, but then you basically throw all that out. Don't get me started on the whole 'real world utopia book' thing.

On style, to me it's much more SMT5 than Persona 5 in terms of cohesion. Persona's mostly working with a highly stylised Tokyo + dungeon areas that are all designed with the psychodrama themes, so everything is very tight and you could hardly mistake a P5 screenshot for something else. Metaphor's a standard fantasy game with your Grass Area and Tomb and Sea Area and so on with a Persona-like visual coating on top, so it's never going to have that kind of cohesion.

 

[spookyheart]

Damn i forgot its been that long in development for lmao since the mid 2010s and lol now that its out hoo boy its already a victim so to speak like every fucking atlus game lately of "discourse" by fucking minors on social media yeah lol glad i noped out of the atlus fandom when i still did.

 

[S.torch]

2 weeks later... game is forgotten... why?

 

[notpl]

2 weeks later... game is forgotten... why?

Less intricate buildfaggotry and superboss shennanigans than SMT5 and no frumpy fuckable high school teachers in maid outfits. This game is good, but it drowns in a sexless gray void between two much more compelling franchises.

 

[Haplo]

Hard is interesting enough and well paced to not require grinding. I think there's a point later where you get huge power gains from stacking One Big Nuke (Masquerade Charge + Peerless Stonecleaver, for example, or Merchant Attack with crit stack), so that most other tools & enemy shenanigans start to become ineffective. I also wonder if it isn't a bit too easy to put up Tetrakarn/Makarakan equivalents (e.g. Knight tree + Utilitarian Manual = you can put up both guards on whole party every turn). That's where the relative lack of big late game bosses comes in, compared to SMT5. Depending on how you play you may hardly get to even use the final archetypes. But it's all pretty fun.

That is possible (although there's supposedly one end game boss that will go on a rampage if you try to use active Repell skills). However abilities and combos you speak generally apply to end game. You have something like 50+ hours of game time before the really OP abilities and combos come into play. Personally I'm fine with some end game abilities being broken. Adds to the feeling of growth.
And yeah, Hard balancing is excellent IMO.

From my point of view, the only mechanical issue is that they give you this neat, seemingly fully flexible and customizable class system, only to funnel you towards character-exclusive Royal Archetypes at the end game, with rigid prerequisites.
Plus repetitive enemies and dungeon types/skins.

2 weeks later... game is forgotten... why?

Well, not by me. Still trucking. I don't have the spare time to commit to finish a long game like this in a week or a month. Enjoying every minute so far.