Might and Magic Might & Magic X - Legacy

[Captain Crusade]

Game would be much improved by a front-line and back-line positioning system! Just like... uh, we have to go back to before 1990 to find this in M&M.

Look, it's really not that hard:
- MM1-2: tactical combat, therefore positioning system is needed and enhances combat, therefore positioning system is in
- MM3-5: less tactical, positioning system not so relevant but would still be nice to have, so it's there but not as well developed
- MM6-8: even less tactical, positioning system not needed, positioning system even less developed.
- MM10: much more tactical, positioning system essential to support the tactics, positioning system completely gone.
There are two completely separate issues that you're conflating to make a stawman. One issue is that MM10 doesn't have a positioning system while MM1-2 had, which is a nonissue because MM3-8 didn't have one had a very basic one. The other issue is that MM3-8 combat didn't NEED such a system because the entire combat system was simpler and less tactical, while the MM10 one absolutely requires it to prevent it from devolving into a clusterfuck where your squishies get hit and you have no way of preventing it. This gets bandaged with the taunts, except that would make the game too easy, so the bandage itself gets bandaged by making most bosses and a large number of boss-like enemies immune to taunts. Which of course takes us back to square one.

Now if you think the above is good design that needs defending then we have nothing left to discuss.

I'm sad people who liked Xeen can't enjoy this game for what it is... even if I can't really figure out why.

Because, aside form the Might and Magic name and the classification as a turn-based blobber, this game has nothing to do with Xeen. Some of it is for the better, the rest of it not so much.

"Full spellcaster" and "full melee" parties are cheese picks made for metagaming, how the hell are those even relevant.

I've always said that one of the greatest strengths of the series is that such parties COULD be made to work because, despite the simplicity of the combat systems, you could take advantage of the design of the world and of the encounters to make them work. MMX's combat, the overreliance on ambushes, the complete uselessness of some skills and classes, the absolute and uncircumventable necessity of some spells and abilities, all of it makes the combat more challenging but also makes the "just make a party and see how it goes" charm of MM3-8 completely go away. It's a shame too because I thought the random party generator was a brilliant addition and something that every previous M&M should've had, but unfortunately it got introduced in the one and only M&M that doesn't allow fucking up your party composition.

What else?
No customized haircuts? No vanity pets?

Seriously? fuck off.

to the point where Broseph even considered that it might be the best Might & Magic game due to its synthesis of harder-core Wizardry-like elements.

And I might've agreed with him too if that synthesis didn't end up throwing out the three major things that made M&M what it is.

Talk about clueless.

1) The positioning system is not completely gone. If you are talking about backrow/front row, yeah that was never in most M&M's. That was/is in the EOB/Dungeon Master/Grimrock games. And it is retarded, because you are screwed if you want to make a party of 4 warriors/warrior mages/hybrids. Currently, positioning affects the order of engagement. Enemies have a set amount of block attempts, no matter who attacks them. So if you set your squishes to attack first, the enemies will waste their blocks for that round on them, leaving them open for your warriors. The warfare skill also has block breaking moves, so you can go that route. Is this perfect? Hell no, but compared to previous M&Ms it is not bad at all.

2) Combat does not devlove into a clusterfuck, nor are you prevented from protecting your squishes. Do you even play bro? You have warfare skills to draw enemy attacks, you have spells like celestial armor, shadow cloak, etc etc. After all this are your squishes immune to attacks? Hell no, nor should they be. What kind of a game would it be if your squishes, typically your biggest potential damage dealers for most of the game, never get attacked. WHen you go into combat are you telling me you target your enemies biggest damage dealers last, so that they have more rounds to damage your party with?

3) Xeen was a great game for it's time, but hardly perfect. MM 6+7 were better, but they too were not near perfect. MMX is the best yet, but again it too is not perfect. I believe the devs would have loved to have a wide open world like 6-8, but they were on a strict budget so they decided to take as many of the better elements from the previous games as they could, including MM9 (dialogue trees) improved on them as much as they could. Thus you have a game with a bigger open area than Xeen, but much smaller than MM6-8

4) Mobs are much much smaller than MnM 6-8, and smaller than the Xeen games. This is regrettable. MnM 6-8 had far too huge mobs, to the point it was unbelievable that settlements could exist with hardly any guards. The older MnMs had a better mob/encounter ratio size. Still, the devs did their best to make up for that by making monsters tougher in MMX. Combats are much more enjoyable, since there is a tactical element that was missing from the earlier games where you just spammed attack and cast the occasional spell.

5) The character development system of MMX is hands down far, far superior to any other MnM

 

[Humanity has risen!]

Plus it was made by lieberals and advocates cultural Marxism so you know it's no good.

I sure didn't appreciate the subplot at the beginning with many characters and the church itself promoting secularism. That was really unsubtle, especially coming from a French writer.

 

[Captain Crusade]

Sceptic

I forgot to add, you can complete the game regardless of your party makeup. You cannot screw yourself over no matter what party you choose. You can screw yourself over though, if you are retarded with allocating your skills. If you try to spend points in everything, and/or pump all your attribute points into spirit if you are playing a Barbarian for instance, then yeah you are fucking your game. C&C brah, play stupid and get raep'd

 

[Abelian]

Talk about clueless.

I beg to differ, Sceptic is one of the Codex's two leading experts on the MM series (the other being Luzur). This guy knows what he's talking about when it comes to NWC.

1) The positioning system is not completely gone. If you are talking about backrow/front row, yeah that was never in most M&M's. That was/is in the EOB/Dungeon Master/Grimrock games. And it is retarded, because you are screwed if you want to make a party of 4 warriors/warrior mages/hybrids. Currently, positioning affects the order of engagement. Enemies have a set amount of block attempts, no matter who attacks them. So if you set your squishes to attack first, the enemies will waste their blocks for that round on them, leaving them open for your warriors. The warfare skill also has block breaking moves, so you can go that route. Is this perfect? Hell no, but compared to previous M&Ms it is not bad at all.

Positioning was present in some form in MM 1-5, the turn-based ones, where it actually mattered since you couldn't play FPS mode shooting at everything. Also, 5/9 figures as "most M&M's" in my book.

2) Combat does not devlove into a clusterfuck, nor are you prevented from protecting your squishes. Do you even play bro? You have warfare skills to draw enemy attacks, you have spells like celestial armor, shadow cloak, etc etc. After all this are your squishes immune to attacks? Hell no, nor should they be. What kind of a game would it be if your squishes, typically your biggest potential damage dealers for most of the game, never get attacked. WHen you go into combat are you telling me you target your enemies biggest damage dealers last, so that they have more rounds to damage your party with?

The back-row characters could be hit in the previous games, especially by ranged units or spellcasters, so they were by no means immune to damage.
And the taunt, celestial armor, shadow cloak, etc. argument was already addressed by Sceptic: "This gets bandaged with the taunts, except that would make the game too easy, so the bandage itself gets bandaged by making most bosses and a large number of boss-like enemies immune to taunts. Which of course takes us back to square one."
In other words, the lack of positioning created a need for spells and abilities to protect the squishy spellcasters, but then the game became easy, so certain enemies ignore those special abilities. Unfortunately, those same enemies often deal large amounts of damage (often to the entire party) which can result in one-hit kills. In other words, the squishy-defense abilities don't work when the player needs them the most. This is known as artificial difficulty.

3) Xeen was a great game for it's time, but hardly perfect. MM 6+7 were better, but they too were not near perfect. MMX is the best yet, but again it too is not perfect. I believe the devs would have loved to have a wide open world like 6-8, but they were on a strict budget so they decided to take as many of the better elements from the previous games as they could, including MM9 (dialogue trees) improved on them as much as they could. Thus you have a game with a bigger open area than Xeen, but much smaller than MM6-8

You believe wrong. Julien wanted a grid-based, turn-based blobber from day one. He even got into an argument with his boss about making MMX old-school, to which she replied something like "over my dead body". Also, in the same interview conducted by Grunker, Julien mentions: "To the question of which of the games he favours, the answer is clear: World of Xeen."
Also, the first three sentences are extremely subjective.

4) Mobs are much much smaller than MnM 6-8, and smaller than the Xeen games. This is regrettable. MnM 6-8 had far too huge mobs, to the point it was unbelievable that settlements could exist with hardly any guards. The older MnMs had a better mob/encounter ratio size. Still, the devs did their best to make up for that by making monsters tougher in MMX. Combats are much more enjoyable, since there is a tactical element that was missing from the earlier games where you just spammed attack and cast the occasional spell.

Whereas the previous games emphasized resource management with their monster mobs, MMX likes to use HP bloated opponents who require two mana potions to finish off. Here is an example of a less than enthused player's reaction to the combat:

Oh noes, a brigand boss monster!

heal whack fire ball ice bolt mana potion
heal whack fire ball ice bolt mana potion
heal whack fire ball ice bolt mana potion
heal whack fire ball ice bolt mana potion
heal whack fire ball ice bolt mana potion

Congratulations!!! You have succeeded in the dealings of the tacticool!

5) The character development system of MMX is hands down far, far superior to any other MnM

This is extremely subjective.

Although I personally enjoy the game, and you obviously do as well, I quoted two codexers who didn't like it as much in order to show that they raise valid objections to how MMX was implemented. Everybody who bought it in this thread wanted to enjoy it: it's been twelve years since the last installment in the series.

This is not a case of people not recognizing genius when they see it. It's just that some players wanted MMX to keep closer to the spirit of the old games, and I respect that.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

Don't mention VI, it just depresses me to think there will never be a game even remotely like it. Even the first dungeon is more challenging and complex than final dungeons of many other games. I think it's my favorite game of all time.

X is nice enough, but once I have played it, I will never feel compelled to play it again or remember it fondly even once.

 

[Sceptic]

Abelian Thank you for saving me having to rewrite what I had already addressed with respect to positioning, and will have to re-address in the review anyway

I do want to clarify one point though, because I think my raging posts earlier in this thread have been misleading:

Although I personally enjoy the game, and you obviously do as well, I quoted two codexers who didn't like it as much in order to show that they raise valid objections to how MMX was implemented. Everybody who bought it in this thread wanted to enjoy it: it's been twelve years since the last installment in the series.

This is not a case of people not recognizing genius when they see it. It's just that some players wanted MMX to keep closer to the spirit of the old games, and I respect that.

I HAVE been enjoying the game, and the last couple of days in particular have been great, since I have finally gotten used to its quirks, gotten over the initial disappointment at some of the changes I did not like (and indeed consider fundamental for an M&M - not gonna go into details for now, that will come), and I've put in more hours into the game in these 2 days than I had over the entire week earlier. This is partly because as you said I wanted to enjoy it; when Ubisoft bought the rights and announced HOMM5 I prety much resigned myself to the fact I would never play anything that resembles M&M even remotely, and it was not a pleasant realisation to come to. That there is such a game that I am playing right now is something I did not dare believe could happen. Yet it has. Sure the games doesn't live up to my expectations; the exploration aspect in particular was a huge disappointment. However, this is a damn fine turn-based blobber. There are many flaws in the system, particularly combat, and I've gone through some of them at length already (again more to come later), but I do think I owe Zeriel an apology because he's right, the flaws are not as fundamental as I thought. The main reason I've changed my mind is that I've since come across several set pieces where these flaws are absent, and figuring out how to best use my abilities to win a "flawless victory" was a blast. Elsewhere you just learn to live with it and use whatever the games does let you use, and since M&M combat was never exactly the pinnacle of delicately balanced tactical system it doesn't really matter that much. And I said earlier the UI lies to you and some of your abilities don't work when they should; well since then I found it works both ways, and your mind-affecting abilities will work on some enemies that are marked as immune. Much fun was had by all.

The tl;dr version is that I can see the flaws, I can see how serious some of them are, but that isn't stopping me from enjoying the game and having a lot of fun with it.

Load times still need to DIAF. Though I just bring a book with me now.

So first you remove me from your "brolist" because I said I didn't like Tree of Life and then you put me on ignore because I said I like MMX.

The brolist thing was an obvious (or so I thought) joke. And I didn't ignore you because you liked MMX, since I like it quite a bit myself. I ignored you in a fit of pure, undiluted, unfettered rage because you dared, dared compare the classic overworld M&M exploration system to customizable haircuts.

You will never live that down, cvv. You may be an M&M bro despite any disagreements we may have, but you will never live that down.

In a few decades, when we're both old and decrepit bros, sitting with a dram of my Islay single malt and discussing MMXXX, I will remind you of that heresy, and you will feel shame.

besides it's not as if you stayed on there for more than a day, ie around the time I realised I wasn't seeing any new posts by you

 

[LeJosh]

I agree with the flaws that have been brought up, I've noticed them during my playthrough but I don't feel it ruins the game completely.

It's a good - that can be great - game, if these issues are addressed.

There is DLC so maybe improvements will be lumped in beside that. Such as the borderline retarded loading times.

I would like to ask: how and what could they (or yourself) change in its current state to make it more like previous M&M games?

 

[Captain Crusade]

1) The positioning system is not completely gone. If you are talking about backrow/front row, yeah that was never in most M&M's. That was/is in the EOB/Dungeon Master/Grimrock games. And it is retarded, because you are screwed if you want to make a party of 4 warriors/warrior mages/hybrids. Currently, positioning affects the order of engagement. Enemies have a set amount of block attempts, no matter who attacks them. So if you set your squishes to attack first, the enemies will waste their blocks for that round on them, leaving them open for your warriors. The warfare skill also has block breaking moves, so you can go that route. Is this perfect? Hell no, but compared to previous M&Ms it is not bad at all.

Positioning was present in some form in MM 1-5, the turn-based ones, where it actually mattered since you couldn't play FPS mode shooting at everything. Also, 5/9 figures as "most M&M's" in my book.

And it is present in some form in MMX. I am not sure to what extent it matters compared to the previous entree's though. However, combat is so different, and IMO better compared to the previous entree's it is simply a matter of taste IMO. In MM 3-5 you simply mashed attack for warriors, and cast attack spells for casters. Here combat is more strategic.

The back-row characters could be hit in the previous games, especially by ranged units or spellcasters, so they were by no means immune to damage.

I never said they could not. I am just saying combat doesn't devolve into a clusterfuck. If you fight something way out of your league you are wiped out though.

And the taunt, celestial armor, shadow cloak, etc. argument was already addressed by Sceptic: "This gets bandaged with the taunts, except that would make the game too easy, so the bandage itself gets bandaged by making most bosses and a large number of boss-like enemies immune to taunts. Which of course takes us back to square one."

In other words, the lack of positioning created a need for spells and abilities to protect the squishy spellcasters, but then the game became easy, so certain enemies ignore those special abilities. Unfortunately, those same enemies often deal large amounts of damage (often to the entire party) which can result in one-hit kills. In other words, the squishy-defense abilities don't work when the player needs them the most. This is known as artificial difficulty.

Spell casters have always been weak in M&M. In the old games you rolled for stats. Here you allocate them manually. So if you pump only spirit and magic for your casters, you can make them hard hitting glass cannons that go down easily. But if you boost Vitality they gain survivability. And no enemies ignore all special abilities. Not even bosses. Typically it is only the Warfare abilities that are sometimes ignored, spellcasters have other shit they can use like Celestial armor, cloak of darkness, resistance spells, etc etc. Yes this does pose a problem if you fight way out of your league though, in that casting these protection spells only delays the inevitable. When I first fought the Shadow Dragon early on, when I was under level 10, I was able to stave off death for a few rounds using protections spells over and over and managing to chip away at the dragon.Eventually it TPK'd my party though. That is because it is way too hard a beast to be fought under level 10 for any party.

Another thing I dislike is that there is no cap to attributes. There should be.

You believe wrong. Julien wanted a grid-based, turn-based blobber from day one. He even got into an argument with his boss about making MMX old-school, to which she replied something like "over my dead body". Also, in the same interview conducted by Grunker, Julien mentions: "To the question of which of the games he favours, the answer is clear: World of Xeen."
Also, the first three sentences are extremely subjective.

I know Julien/Limbic wanted a game similiar to the Xeen series. I knew that since the first few days since it was announced. However, elements were borrowed from all M&Ms. Such as the ability to select skills, a larger overland mass, safe towns (with some exceptions like the spiders), more and varied spells, MM 9 portraits in equipping screen, etc etc.

Whereas the previous games emphasized resource management with their monster mobs, MMX likes to use HP bloated opponents who require two mana potions to finish off. Here is an example of a less than enthused player's reaction to the combat:

Oh noes, a brigand boss monster!

heal whack fire ball ice bolt mana potion
heal whack fire ball ice bolt mana potion
heal whack fire ball ice bolt mana potion
heal whack fire ball ice bolt mana potion
heal whack fire ball ice bolt mana potion

Congratulations!!! You have succeeded in the dealings of the tacticool!

I totally agree about the potion spamming. I HATE that in any game. This should be the one of the first gameplay elements severely revised in a hopeful sequel. Potions should be rare, very expensive and possibly a cap should be used to limit their use even more (say once per day per character per potion type max)

Although I personally enjoy the game, and you obviously do as well, I quoted two codexers who didn't like it as much in order to show that they raise valid objections to how MMX was implemented. Everybody who bought it in this thread wanted to enjoy it: it's been twelve years since the last installment in the series.

This is not a case of people not recognizing genius when they see it. It's just that some players wanted MMX to keep closer to the spirit of the old games, and I respect that.

But it is close to the spirit of the old games! Are you implying they should have copied their flaws more too? Like you could not modify your starting party apart from race and class, as in the Xeen series? That was horrible, RPGs are all about customization. Character Gen is supposed to be one of the most fun aspects of a true rpg. And this MnM has the best char gen of any MnM, while still retaining the flavor of the old. There are other changes not found in Xeen though, such as categorizing spells into different schools. But that was already done in MM6+

Regarding the exploration aspect yeah I wish there was a much bigger landmass, there were far fewer 'gamey' elements like shrines granting huge bonuses right next to each other and out in the open, chests and barrels in the middle of the city yet no one else opened them, NPCs in cities that don't move around/have schedules, etc. But the devs were very limited due to funding. Hopefully all of this will be addressed in a sequel.

Sceptic I am glad you like the game more. Please finish the game before writing your review or at least play 20+ hours. Many things that were not apparent in the beginning will become apparent later on, such as how tactics can change depending on your skill set and spell set, and equipment set. Furthermore things like certain monsters being resistant to some things, and weak against others (bestiary is there for a reason bro, study it) Furthermore, no creature is immune /resistant to everything. Not even bosses. The humble Ice Shard spell you can start off with can be devastating against many bosses, for instance. Also, a hard battle can be made easier by using different tactics, yet at the same character level.

Potion spam is fucking annoying though.

 

[Darth Roxor]

MMX is the best yet

o__________________________________________o

 

[Zeriel]

I'm supposed to be working on Grimoire. The coming week is my last opportunity to move the project forward before a bloodthirsty mob storms my underground fortress and drags me out to undergo public gauntlet and trial by fire.

I need to have the patched super demo out this week, with the pledge content information mailed out and then my third IndieGoGo campaign starts. The last thing I need to do this week is play games.

So what you're saying is you've been playing a lot of games, then?

 

[Cyberarmy]

Encountered another bug, our party forgets to inform us about secret doors once in while, just make sure to check "secret door ish" walls. Happened to me in Karthal sewers.

 

[golgepapaz]

Where the hell is Dual wield GM Changbo?. I've scoured the vantyr range but unable to find him. There are a Crossbow GM, Sudgerd, and an inaccessible dungeon Tomb of terrors.I need directions..

 

[Zeriel]

Sceptic

There is some truth to the criticisms, I was only reacting to the seeming sentiment that MMXL was a legitimately bad game on par with shovelware. I think the most telling thing I can say about MMXL is that after I was done with it, I didn't really have any interest in playing it again. It's an okay game and amazing for existing in this day and age and so on and so forth, but it's not mindblowing or anything.

Things I'd address in a mod were it possible (a few of them are, most aren't):

* All skills balancing.

* Allow purchases of novice skills from trainers instead of from the character select screen. Bring back level training in town.

* Railroad classes less with skill acquisition, and tie restrictions to tiers rather than the skill itself. (i.e all classes should be able to get at least Novice of any weapon type if they want to, even if it's not a great idea)

* Encounter design. This is an easy one, just use ambushes less, and rely on monsters being static placed in most maps 100% of the time, so people can see what they're getting into and be more strategic about what they're doing.

* Less railroading of the world. All towns should be reachable the moment you start the game. This may actually be a bad idea for player experience. I hate the "tutorial level" feeling, even when it's done well and isn't too intrusive. I like being able to immediately get into the game proper, but these areas and levels exist because most people don't know what the fuck to do with themselves when not guided for the first steps in the game. I'm planning to do something similarly open with a Divinity: Original Sin mod, so if people hate it there I guess we'll have our psychology 101 answer as to why all games are shit.

* More disparity in difficulty. I love the concept of the "dangerous caves" where you know as soon as you step in you have a challenge of sorts waiting for you. I'd like to see this sort of concept used more liberally in games. Have average, not-particularly-brutal-not-particularly-easy encounters on the main road, then sandwich your fucking impossible challenge fights into these alcoves. In general: make average fights easier, make hard fights harder. Here's where I get really controversial though: I think Warrior difficulty is a bad idea. Pick how difficult your game should be and stick with it. The game has one difficulty. It's called 'the game'. (Modders love this concept, obviously, since they don't have to report to shareholders.)

I actually don't think the "corridor forests" are neccessarily a bad thing in this game. I despise them in a game like Wasteland 2 where they seem particularly artificial, but a grid-based game is already so abstract that forests shaped into corridors feel nostalgic (Lands of Lore!) to me rather than dumb.

 

[Zeriel]

Where the hell is Dual wield GM Changbo?. I've scoured the vantyr range but unable to find him. There are a Crossbow GM, Sudgerd, and an inaccessible dungeon Tomb of terrors.I need directions..

Keep to the left side of the mountains. It's up several teleporters, then into a sort of SW area with naga decorations.

Encountered another bug, our party forgets to inform us about secret doors once in while, just make sure to check "secret door ish" walls. Happened to me in Karthal sewers.

I'm pretty sure the secret door barks are just manual scripting, so if they put in a secret door and forgot to link up an associated script, that could be the culprit.

 

[golgepapaz]

Where the hell is Dual wield GM Changbo?. I've scoured the vantyr range but unable to find him. There are a Crossbow GM, Sudgerd, and an inaccessible dungeon Tomb of terrors.I need directions..

Keep to the left side of the mountains. It's up several teleporters, then into a sort of SW area with naga decorations.

Oh ok. Should I start from the sorpigal or seahaven teleporter? (As first teleporter I mean)

 

[Zeriel]

Where the hell is Dual wield GM Changbo?. I've scoured the vantyr range but unable to find him. There are a Crossbow GM, Sudgerd, and an inaccessible dungeon Tomb of terrors.I need directions..

Keep to the left side of the mountains. It's up several teleporters, then into a sort of SW area with naga decorations.

Oh ok. Should I start from the sorpigal or seahaven teleporter? (As first teleporter I mean)

Sounds like you already explored every other part of the mountains, so just look for places you haven't been.

 

[golgepapaz]

Where the hell is Dual wield GM Changbo?. I've scoured the vantyr range but unable to find him. There are a Crossbow GM, Sudgerd, and an inaccessible dungeon Tomb of terrors.I need directions..

Keep to the left side of the mountains. It's up several teleporters, then into a sort of SW area with naga decorations.

Oh ok. Should I start from the sorpigal or seahaven teleporter? (As first teleporter I mean)

Sounds like you already explored every other part of the mountains, so just look for places you haven't been.

Yup I've found it.Apparently I've skipped that part after first meeting the fire elementals in front of dwarven hall.

 

[Cyberarmy]

Encountered another bug, our party forgets to inform us about secret doors once in while, just make sure to check "secret door ish" walls. Happened to me in Karthal sewers.

I'm pretty sure the secret door barks are just manual scripting, so if they put in a secret door and forgot to link up an associated script, that could be the culprit.[/quote]

And it get pretty wild when using clairvoyance if there are lots of traps near. They all bark at the same time.

 

[Luzur]

Sceptic

There is some truth to the criticisms, I was only reacting to the seeming sentiment that MMXL was a legitimately bad game on par with shovelware. I think the most telling thing I can say about MMXL is that after I was done with it, I didn't really have any interest in playing it again. It's an okay game and amazing for existing in this day and age and so on and so forth, but it's not mindblowing or anything.

Things I'd address in a mod were it possible (a few of them are, most aren't):

* All skills balancing.

* Allow purchases of novice skills from trainers instead of from the character select screen. Bring back level training in town.

* Railroad classes less with skill acquisition, and tie restrictions to tiers rather than the skill itself. (i.e all classes should be able to get at least Novice of any weapon type if they want to, even if it's not a great idea)

* Encounter design. This is an easy one, just use ambushes less, and rely on monsters being static placed in most maps 100% of the time, so people can see what they're getting into and be more strategic about what they're doing.

* Less railroading of the world. All towns should be reachable the moment you start the game. This may actually be a bad idea for player experience. I hate the "tutorial level" feeling, even when it's done well and isn't too intrusive. I like being able to immediately get into the game proper, but these areas and levels exist because most people don't know what the fuck to do with themselves when not guided for the first steps in the game. I'm planning to do something similarly open with a Divinity: Original Sin mod, so if people hate it there I guess we'll have our psychology 101 answer as to why all games are shit.

* More disparity in difficulty. I love the concept of the "dangerous caves" where you know as soon as you step in you have a challenge of sorts waiting for you. I'd like to see this sort of concept used more liberally in games. Have average, not-particularly-brutal-not-particularly-easy encounters on the main road, then sandwich your fucking impossible challenge fights into these alcoves. In general: make average fights easier, make hard fights harder. Here's where I get really controversial though: I think Warrior difficulty is a bad idea. Pick how difficult your game should be and stick with it. The game has one difficulty. It's called 'the game'. (Modders love this concept, obviously, since they don't have to report to shareholders.)

I actually don't think the "corridor forests" are neccessarily a bad thing in this game. I despise them in a game like Wasteland 2 where they seem particularly artificial, but a grid-based game is already so abstract that forests shaped into corridors feel nostalgic (Lands of Lore!) to me rather than dumb.

if you want i could repost this on the VIP forum, although i know the devs read this thread often.

 

[Grunker]

Sceptic

There is some truth to the criticisms, I was only reacting to the seeming sentiment that MMXL was a legitimately bad game on par with shovelware. I think the most telling thing I can say about MMXL is that after I was done with it, I didn't really have any interest in playing it again. It's an okay game and amazing for existing in this day and age and so on and so forth, but it's not mindblowing or anything.

Things I'd address in a mod were it possible (a few of them are, most aren't):

* All skills balancing.

* Allow purchases of novice skills from trainers instead of from the character select screen. Bring back level training in town.

* Railroad classes less with skill acquisition, and tie restrictions to tiers rather than the skill itself. (i.e all classes should be able to get at least Novice of any weapon type if they want to, even if it's not a great idea)

* Encounter design. This is an easy one, just use ambushes less, and rely on monsters being static placed in most maps 100% of the time, so people can see what they're getting into and be more strategic about what they're doing.

* Less railroading of the world. All towns should be reachable the moment you start the game. This may actually be a bad idea for player experience. I hate the "tutorial level" feeling, even when it's done well and isn't too intrusive. I like being able to immediately get into the game proper, but these areas and levels exist because most people don't know what the fuck to do with themselves when not guided for the first steps in the game. I'm planning to do something similarly open with a Divinity: Original Sin mod, so if people hate it there I guess we'll have our psychology 101 answer as to why all games are shit.

* More disparity in difficulty. I love the concept of the "dangerous caves" where you know as soon as you step in you have a challenge of sorts waiting for you. I'd like to see this sort of concept used more liberally in games. Have average, not-particularly-brutal-not-particularly-easy encounters on the main road, then sandwich your fucking impossible challenge fights into these alcoves. In general: make average fights easier, make hard fights harder. Here's where I get really controversial though: I think Warrior difficulty is a bad idea. Pick how difficult your game should be and stick with it. The game has one difficulty. It's called 'the game'. (Modders love this concept, obviously, since they don't have to report to shareholders.)

I actually don't think the "corridor forests" are neccessarily a bad thing in this game. I despise them in a game like Wasteland 2 where they seem particularly artificial, but a grid-based game is already so abstract that forests shaped into corridors feel nostalgic (Lands of Lore!) to me rather than dumb.

This is a very good post and I agree with it.

Luzur: You should.

 

[Luzur]

Sceptic

There is some truth to the criticisms, I was only reacting to the seeming sentiment that MMXL was a legitimately bad game on par with shovelware. I think the most telling thing I can say about MMXL is that after I was done with it, I didn't really have any interest in playing it again. It's an okay game and amazing for existing in this day and age and so on and so forth, but it's not mindblowing or anything.

Things I'd address in a mod were it possible (a few of them are, most aren't):

* All skills balancing.

* Allow purchases of novice skills from trainers instead of from the character select screen. Bring back level training in town.

* Railroad classes less with skill acquisition, and tie restrictions to tiers rather than the skill itself. (i.e all classes should be able to get at least Novice of any weapon type if they want to, even if it's not a great idea)

* Encounter design. This is an easy one, just use ambushes less, and rely on monsters being static placed in most maps 100% of the time, so people can see what they're getting into and be more strategic about what they're doing.

* Less railroading of the world. All towns should be reachable the moment you start the game. This may actually be a bad idea for player experience. I hate the "tutorial level" feeling, even when it's done well and isn't too intrusive. I like being able to immediately get into the game proper, but these areas and levels exist because most people don't know what the fuck to do with themselves when not guided for the first steps in the game. I'm planning to do something similarly open with a Divinity: Original Sin mod, so if people hate it there I guess we'll have our psychology 101 answer as to why all games are shit.

* More disparity in difficulty. I love the concept of the "dangerous caves" where you know as soon as you step in you have a challenge of sorts waiting for you. I'd like to see this sort of concept used more liberally in games. Have average, not-particularly-brutal-not-particularly-easy encounters on the main road, then sandwich your fucking impossible challenge fights into these alcoves. In general: make average fights easier, make hard fights harder. Here's where I get really controversial though: I think Warrior difficulty is a bad idea. Pick how difficult your game should be and stick with it. The game has one difficulty. It's called 'the game'. (Modders love this concept, obviously, since they don't have to report to shareholders.)

I actually don't think the "corridor forests" are neccessarily a bad thing in this game. I despise them in a game like Wasteland 2 where they seem particularly artificial, but a grid-based game is already so abstract that forests shaped into corridors feel nostalgic (Lands of Lore!) to me rather than dumb.

This is a very good post and I agree with it.

Luzur: You should.

well gimme a whole list then.

 

[Zeriel]

To be fair, some game design comes down to "they would do exactly what we suggest if they were making the game for themselves, but market pressures exist even for a niche title". I seriously doubt Julien wanted multiple difficulty levels, but it's a solution that pleases the most possible people as opposed to either alienating the hardcores or the casuals. (Difficulty levels do alienate people like me who like games that are "take it or leave it, this is the game and you have to adjust to it", but these people are a much smaller crowd.)

Luzur

Since they're reading this thread already, it's probably redundant. If people seriously want more details on how I'd balance skills I could provide some thoughts, but otherwise it just strikes me as egowanking, and anyone's opinion is just as valid.

 

[Luzur]

To be fair, some game design comes down to "they would do exactly what we suggest if they were making the game for themselves, but market pressures exist even for a niche title". I seriously doubt Julien wanted multiple difficulty levels, but it's a solution that pleases the most possible people as opposed to either alienating the hardcores or the casuals. (Difficulty levels do alienate people like me who like games that are "take it or leave it, this is the game and you have to adjust to it", but these people are a much smaller crowd.)

Luzur

Since they're reading this thread already, it's probably redundant. If people seriously want more details on how I'd balance skills I could provide some thoughts, but otherwise it just strikes me as egowanking, and anyone's opinion is just as valid.

well, cant hurt giving them a closer look though, and compile some complaints/suggestions.

+ the other VIP's dont read this forum.

 

[Arkeus]

if you want i could repost this on the VIP forum, although i know the devs read this thread often.

Have people in the VIP forums been talking about the need to be able to move the Mini-map? It's seriously frustrating how you need to be semi-close to somewhere to check the notes you have put/etc.

Oh, and it would be great if there was a notepad somewhere else than on the map too, where we could type stuff like "Eldar shrine is near ceastle".

 

[Luzur]

if you want i could repost this on the VIP forum, although i know the devs read this thread often.

Have people in the VIP forums been talking about the need to be able to move the Mini-map? It's seriously frustrating how you need to be semi-close to somewhere to check the notes you have put/etc.

Oh, and it would be great if there was a notepad somewhere else than on the map too, where we could type stuff like "Eldar shrine is near ceastle".

hmm, no, not that i can recall, but i added it now.