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Morrowind is utter tripe

Zibniyat

Arcane
Joined
Jun 22, 2014
Messages
6,288
I haven't met many people who introduce themselves as "I am {name}, {occupation}."

Hmmm, maybe Morrowind's NPCs aren't as realistic as I had believed them to be... since they seem to have greater depth!

Why do Morrowind fanboys have such a hard time admitting the game's dialogue and NPCs are absolute horseshit?

You assume much, too much, about someone from a single post on a certain topic. Fanboy? You mean someone who will uncritically praise something and pretend how it has no flaws? Well then that cannot be me.

Putting hyperbole aside a bit (but only a bit), most generic NPCs in almost all games are atrociously shallow. At least in the case of Morrowind they serve a purpose as walking encyclopedias, which I find good enough. Most real people, having time to do so, are quite willing to talk about history and current events at length, one only needs to gently push them into that direction. I most certainly prefer NPCs who can talk about great many topics to those who just give you short-sentence response from a couple of predefined ones.

Now, a proper argument against Morrowind's NPCs is that there aren't many (or none at all) which have detailed, lengthy quests attached to them with proper choices and consequences. However, whilst proper, it isn't absolute. You see, unlike most games, Morrowind approaches these things (pertaining to NPCs) from a "greater to lesser" perspective: Morrowind has a world embroiled in current apocalyptic and prophesized events, with intricate lore and history behind this world, with some characters nearly "greater than life" (the Tribunal Three for instance), and has detailed relationships described between various factions within said world (the Houses, the guilds, others). This "greater" part then serves to imprint purpose and being on "lesser" parts which are individual NPCs. After spending months of in-game time, reading through rare books, talking to various NPCs and doing other activities, soaking up the interesting and otherworldly both history and present of Morrowind, meeting such persons like Vivec, or Dagoth Ur, or Divayth Fyr, or Yagrum Bagarn - even when not followed by some great quest or interesting side-quests done at their bidding - I felt and experienced some greatness, mystery and beauty of it. To meet such an array of so unique, ancient and essentially constitutive elements of the entire world of Elder Scrolls was an experience far above so many others in so many other games which only ever content themselves with presenting mentally immature NPCs with various emotional issues which I am supposedly there to fix (yawn).

This "greater to lesser", this imprinting of uniqueness and greatness of the world onto the characters of Morrowind is what salvages it from any, and objective, criticism pertaining to its indeed too static and seemingly "lifeless" characters when taken out of the world of Morrowind. Morrowind's NPCs are given life by its own world, not the other way around. For people whose personality is more attuned to experiencing the life of a world through the life of its characters it indeed can and does look rigid and difficult to appreciate, but for some others it is a complete opposite. But I've never felt its NPCs as being static or boring in themselves, since I looked at them as part of the world itself, and they fit very nicely in it.

This is why banal, couple of sentences short "criticism" (but in reality an equivalent of monkey shit-flinging) of Morrowind is so distasteful and pitiful, because it deliberately and falsely tries to portray its criteria of what can be good as the only ones which are proper and true. Well, as you can see, some of us reject that arrogance.
 
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Thal

Augur
Joined
Apr 4, 2015
Messages
408
Exploration is one of the game's biggest strengths, and that counts as gameplay. Exploration is also one of the few elements which BOTH Morrowind and Gothic 1 & 2 excel at.

Is it, though?
There's nothing of interest in Morrowind's dungeon, for the most part. And by "most part", I mean 95% of them. Dungeons are usually boring as fuck; the occasional rare equipment piece doesn't turn a bad dungeon into a good one.

You don't go to Morrowind's dungeons looking necessarily for artifacts or interesting stuff. You go to smuggler caves for Soul Gems and money, to Daedric ruins for Daedra Hearts, to Dwemer Ruins for early game heavy armor, to Ancestral Tombs to recharge your magicka if you're Atronach. Most of these dungeons are compact as they should be, since there is nothing special about them. And occasionally you stumble upon something you weren't looking for.
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
3,437
Exploration is one of the game's biggest strengths, and that counts as gameplay. Exploration is also one of the few elements which BOTH Morrowind and Gothic 1 & 2 excel at.

Is it, though?
There's nothing of interest in Morrowind's dungeon, for the most part. And by "most part", I mean 95% of them. Dungeons are usually boring as fuck; the occasional rare equipment piece doesn't turn a bad dungeon into a good one.
I do contest the notion that just because dungeons aren't somehow special/unique it means you don't get any sense of exploration when checking out the locations you never visited. And since we are already on the subject, what is your idea of good/interesting dungeon or how would you do dungeons in Morrowind to make them good/interesting for the player?

You don't go to Morrowind's dungeons looking necessarily for artifacts or interesting stuff. You go to smuggler caves for Soul Gems and money, to Daedric ruins for Daedra Hearts, to Dwemer Ruins for early game heavy armor, to Ancestral Tombs to recharge your magicka if you're Atronach. Most of these dungeons are compact as they should be, since there is nothing special about them. And occasionally you stumble upon something you weren't looking for.
Also, a lot of places exist solely for the sake of internal consistency - because it makes sense in terms of the in-game world for these location to be where they are, even if it isn't quest-related.
 

Zibniyat

Arcane
Joined
Jun 22, 2014
Messages
6,288
Don't forget he (self-admittedly) looked up every dungeon on the wiki to see if he missed anything. While playing.

Amazing, and it is true.

I don't use the wiki to choose locations to explore. I only use it to confirm that, once I've fully cleared out a dungeon, I didn't miss anything.

I've always been of the opinion that GD is where all the worst 'tards are residing, but reading game threads always yields much more... unique insights into all possibilities of personalities of this world, many quite literally not right in the head.

I wonder what else did he look up on the wiki lol.

By the way, if you've played a game for hundred or more hours you loose the right to call it anything other than exceptionally good. The disgusting hypocrites need to start being hunted down and eliminated!
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
5,359
I do contest the notion that just because dungeons aren't somehow special/unique it means you don't get any sense of exploration when checking out the locations you never visited. And since we are already on the subject, what is your idea of good/interesting dungeon or how would you do dungeons in Morrowind to make them good/interesting for the player?

For starters, make dungeons significantly different to each other so I don't get a sense of deja vu every time I enter a new cave/tomb/daedric ruin/etc.
It kills any joy of exploration because you aren't really "exploring" anything. Just revisiting another cave that looks suspiciously similar to the last few caves you viisted. Are there exceptions? Sure. But something tells me if Morrowind didn't have 300 dungeons, then more effort could have been put into the ones remaining.
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
5,359
You assume much, too much, about someone from a single post on a certain topic. Fanboy? You mean someone who will uncritically praise something and pretend how it has no flaws? Well then that cannot be me.

"I'm not a fanboy."
proceeds to go on a fanboy rant

Morrowind's dialogue has nothing in common with real life dialogue. Meanwhile, dialogue in most RPGs do. If people have nothing to say to you, they will likely not stop to chat with you. If people have something to say to you, however, their personality will shine through in dialogue. Or, at the very least, they won't use the exact same generic and lifeless words another person has used before.

Morrowind style dialogue (fittingly, straight out of a wiki):

Geckos are reptilian and born with a pair of fins behind their heads. Their eyes possess an orange tint, and their body coloration differs greatly depending on the gecko subspecies in question. Geckos have evolved with five fingers and five toes. Dependent on the type, they range from the size of a small human child, to heights exceeding that of an average human adult.

New Vegas style dialogue:

Bunch of little monsters is what they are. It seems like Doc Mitchell treats more gecko bites than anything else.

I hope I've illustrated my point.
 

Can't handle the bacon

Guest
Morrowind doesn't really have a lot of dialogue. There are a few instances here and there where you can actually select a response and have the character reply (Vivek and Dagoth Ur interactions come to mind), but mostly it's not dialogue, but rather wiki-style monologue.
 

explorer1911

Novice
Joined
Jul 1, 2021
Messages
5
You could discard like half of all guild quests and the game wouldnt suffer from it.
That was because they wanted you to be able to reach the highest rank in a guild without having to do every single quest, in case you didn't like one of the quest givers/their quests, or more importantly they were dead. Therefore they had to load the game up with what was more or less filler quests. They aren't bad though, just generally pretty basic. They still tie into the world nicely. For instance there's a House Redoran quest where you have to rescue a pilgrim that got kidnapped by Ashlanders. They want 5000 gold for him as he told them he was a noble since he thought they'd kill him otherwise. You can pay the 5000, you can kill the Ashlanders, or you can convince the Ashlanders that the pilgrim isn't a noble, after which they will humorously lower the ransom to 5 gold. This quest really isn't much, it's standard fare, but before you get to this quest you've probably heard a decent bit about Ashlanders from "civilized" Dunmer and how savage they are, and now you actually get to interact with them. The people in the game don't talk about the problems in their world for no reason, they're actual problems that you're probably going to have to deal with too. Even though a lot of those quests dealing with those problems could probably just be cut, and maybe even would make the overall experience of playing the game better as it could tighten up the pacing, it would definitely make the world feel less deep, which is most players' favorite part about the game.
 

Can't handle the bacon

Guest
For instance there's a House Redoran quest where you have to rescue a pilgrim that got kidnapped by Ashlanders. They want 5000 gold for him as he told them he was a noble since he thought they'd kill him otherwise. You can pay the 5000, you can kill the Ashlanders, or you can convince the Ashlanders that the pilgrim isn't a noble, after which they will humorously lower the ransom to 5 gold. This quest really isn't much, it's standard fare, but before you get to this quest you've probably heard a decent bit about Ashlanders from "civilized" Dunmer and how savage they are, and now you actually get to interact with them.
Which would have been fine, if it the wiki-style monologue system didn't rob everyone of their personality and make Ashlanders sound pretty much the same as any other NPCs.
 

explorer1911

Novice
Joined
Jul 1, 2021
Messages
5
Which would have been fine, if it the wiki-style monologue system didn't rob everyone of their personality and make Ashlanders sound pretty much the same as any other NPCs.
I wasn't even talking about the dialogue, I was talking about how even the filler quests do an important job of world building even though they don't contribute to specific faction narratives. I don't think Morrowind's dialogue system was a good choice, and even the person whose idea it was (Ken Rolston) didn't end up liking it. He said the original intention was to create a sort of "keyword novel" where your adventure is logged in a way that reads like a book or something, whereas the journal in Morrowind just reads like a normal RPG journal with some flavor text. The dialogue filtering system was also very flawed, many characters would say things that made no sense, slavers would comment on how they don't disagree with abolitionists, abolitionists would comment on how they don't disagree with slavery, topics weren't removed after all information was learned from them, it was a mess. But like I said, I'm talking about the world building. What's important isn't what the Ashlanders say, but what they did, and how it's consistent with what you may know about them, and gives you an opportunity to deal with a problem the people of Vvardenfell claim to face. It's mundane but it's immersive and important.
 

Can't handle the bacon

Guest
Which would have been fine, if it the wiki-style monologue system didn't rob everyone of their personality and make Ashlanders sound pretty much the same as any other NPCs.
I wasn't even talking about the dialogue, I was talking about how even the filler quests do an important job of world building even though they don't contribute to specific faction narratives. I don't think Morrowind's dialogue system was a good choice, and even the person whose idea it was (Ken Rolston) didn't end up liking it. He said the original intention was to create a sort of "keyword novel" where your adventure is logged in a way that reads like a book or something, whereas the journal in Morrowind just reads like a normal RPG journal with some flavor text. The dialogue filtering system was also very flawed, many characters would say things that made no sense, slavers would comment on how they don't disagree with abolitionists, abolitionists would comment on how they don't disagree with slavery, topics weren't removed after all information was learned from them, it was a mess. But like I said, I'm talking about the world building. What's important isn't what the Ashlanders say, but what they did, and how it's consistent with what you may know about them, and gives you an opportunity to deal with a problem the people of Vvardenfell claim to face. It's mundane but it's immersive and important.
What?
 

corvax

Augur
Joined
Jul 13, 2004
Messages
731
For what is worth, and to completely insert myself in this thread in an unrelated tangential comment, they say that your favorite Elder Scrolls game is the first one you play. Folks that played Daggerfall first claim that it’s better than Morrowind. Folks that played Morrowind first claim that it’s better than Daggerfall and oblivion. Folks that played Skyrim first claim it’s better than sliced bread. The three people that played Elder Scrolls Travels on their flip phones are probably rotting away in a Haitian prison because they thought that just anyone can overthrow a government.

Anyway, I fall into the Morrowind camp but at least I know why I fall into it. Do any of you remember how many hand crafted open world rpgs we had in 2002? Yeah, I thought so. Gothic was decent if you could grow another pair of arms just to bloody control your character via the keyboard. Yea, we had BG2 and NWN at that time but those games were so different by design that I would hesitate to lump them as games I would compare or measure against each other. At the time, Morrowind took me places no other game did. Yea it was clunky. Yea I was running it at 9FPS on my Gateway. But oh the lore, oh the freedom! Yea I had to sheepishly set my own rules because the devs were too lazy to stop me from becoming the head of every house and guild on the island. But oh, how I will never forget joining the Temple and setting off on a pilgrimage only with the clothes on my back, and maybe a scroll of chameleon or two. Ok, fine I did have a skooma bottle stashed away and met that talking crab one time but I was really high and it was really dark outside.

Would I experience Morrowind the same way today? Not quite. A replay might bring a nostalgic tear into my eye but I no longer have all the free hours in the day to get myself lost in this world. And my own little lenses that I use to view the world have been skewed by all the other crap I’ve seen and played since 2002. But please, take your poisoned apple and don’t shit on my nostalgic memories. They’re not that accurate but as with many things in life they’re much better in my head than in reality.

Ok, I’m off the podium. Maybe I’ll post again in 2024.
 

explorer1911

Novice
Joined
Jul 1, 2021
Messages
5
What was confusing about what I said? You roped dialogue complaints into a conversation that wasn't about that and I told you I agree it was a problem but I was talking about the large amount of faction quests that don't seem to actually add to that faction's story.
 

jackofshadows

Magister
Joined
Oct 21, 2019
Messages
3,701
Even though a lot of those quests dealing with those problems could probably just be cut, and maybe even would make the overall experience of playing the game better as it could tighten up the pacing, it would definitely make the world feel less deep, which is most players' favorite part about the game.
Uhh, how exactly picking fucking mushrooms is making world feel deeper? They should've just cut those filler quests into Oblivion and adjust rep rewards or something.
But please, take your poisoned apple and don’t shit on my nostalgic memories.
Pathetic.
 

Zibniyat

Arcane
Joined
Jun 22, 2014
Messages
6,288
Morrowind style dialogue (fittingly, straight out of a wiki):

Geckos are reptilian and born with a pair of fins behind their heads. Their eyes possess an orange tint, and their body coloration differs greatly depending on the gecko subspecies in question. Geckos have evolved with five fingers and five toes. Dependent on the type, they range from the size of a small human child, to heights exceeding that of an average human adult.

New Vegas style dialogue:

Bunch of little monsters is what they are. It seems like Doc Mitchell treats more gecko bites than anything else.

I hope I've illustrated my point.

Yes, you have. I stand corrected.

I seems I was wrong after all, and that Morrowind's NPCs and dialogues are more useful and superior to those of real people! And those of RPGs desperately trying to emulate how "real people" (read: the lowest of the low) talk. Thank you for making me realise this, I just got the urge to replay Morrowind now...
 
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Zibniyat

Arcane
Joined
Jun 22, 2014
Messages
6,288
For what is worth, and to completely insert myself in this thread in an unrelated tangential comment, they say that your favorite Elder Scrolls game is the first one you play.

There are exceptions to this, myself included. I was a teenager back then and, considering I didn't have easy access to either a computer or games in my country, the first of the Elder Scrolls that I played was Oblivion. In fact, Oblivion was one of the first games that I played. This is why I don't outright hate it, but I can admit to its many flaws. I remember being blown away by the pretty looking, free-form open world game, and a seemingly alive world (I still remember fondly my first entrance to the Market District of the Imperial City, so many people, who talked randomly to each other, really made it feel alive).

A few years later, I tried Morrowind. Actually, it was not the first attempt, as I was usually put off by the rather awkward animations (Argonians walking is among the funniest thing ever). However, once I managed to go through the initial dislike of animation and some graphical elements, I was enchanted by such a wonderful world and a game. It most definitely is my favourite Elder Scrolls game thus far, and one for which I have no problem stating is far superior to Oblivion, and even more to Skyrim (I find Skyrim dumb and inferior to Oblivion as well).
 

Zibniyat

Arcane
Joined
Jun 22, 2014
Messages
6,288
(I find Skyrim dumb and inferior to Oblivion as well).
How so?

Oh I forgot most of it, I think I made a post or two about it here years ago. For example, AFAIK, Oblivion at least had some quests which didn't involve killing everyone, whilst Skyrim from my experience always had, even for the Thieves guild I think. Skyrim doubled down on retardation that is the GPS system and modern quest-compass, where quest-givers often times didn't even tell you the location to go but instead just said "you need to go here" and the location gets magically placed on a map (on the other side of the world most often). Then there is further simplification and dumbing down when it comes to skills (some were removed), the ability to do alchemy and enchant things (some of these things either miss completely or are substantially reduced compared to Oblivion). Even major qustlines were dumbed down and simplified, for example in Oblivion you had to do a series of minor quests (and quite diverse at that, in principle; let's put the execution of it all aside now) to join the famous and prestigious Arcane University, while in Skyrim you could be a lowly level 1 whatever and still be granted access to that University or whatever it was called there.

Skyrim was simplified, streamlined and naturally dumbed down in every way compared to Oblivion.

The only two things where Skyrim outdid Oblivion was art direction and graphics; both the look and feel of various towns and dungeons were improved, they weren't as generic as in Oblivion. Graphically, Skyrim was superior, but not in every way, for example trees and grass in Oblivion felt more natural and real (don't mix it up with realistic) than the flat-looking ones of Skyrim. On the other hand, Skyrim had no large cities like the Imperial City of Oblivion, and only had nicely designed but way too small towns.

Oblivion's expansion, the Shivering Isles, brought much needed wonder and alien feeling to the generic Oblivion. I don't know about Skyrim's expansions since I did not play them even though I did buy them at one point; I was simply so disgusted by the simplification of Skyrim that I had no desire to play its expansions.

Etc.
 

Valdetiosi

Scholar
Joined
Apr 18, 2016
Messages
214
Location
Finland
Saying Morrowind is bad doesn't put it in equal foot with Oblivion or Skyrim. It may be "bad", but honestly I rather play it than those 2 if I were to be forced on it.

I rather play a game where I can screw around and actually kill people rather than see them get on their knees and stand up after 30 seconds.
I rather play a game where I can chug potions to fortify attributes until I have a potion that lasts for 3 real life hours.
I rather play a game where I can jump from one end of the map to other.

And yes, I rather play a game that doesn't throw forced cutscenes that halt player movement. It's so funny how interactive and free Morrowind is compared to it's sequels.
 

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