NWN Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition - Beamdog's final enhancement - now with new premium modules

[ERYFKRAD]

Now that that's over with, let's all discuss our favourite classes.

Mine is cleric.

1-40.

Barbarian.
Speaking of which, what do you think of barbarism on your blog, Lilura?

 

[Mebrilia the Viera Queen]

So there is something actually enhanced or is still a glorified patch under a paywall?

 

[Jason Liang]

druid

more specifically druid/ rogue

druid/ rogue/ cot or
druid/ rogue/ wizard

 

[Parabalus]

So there is something actually enhanced or is still a glorified patch under a paywall?

I tried it last week and couldn't see a difference. Even the Beamdog logo took some searching to find.

The resolution&UI options were a bigger mess than the Diamond edition's.

Most blatant cash grab I've seen in a while, and I'm fonder of the IE EE's than the average codexer.

 

[Ninefingers]

Can second the above, I actually quite like some of the IE EEs but there doesn’t seem to be anything of worth added to this at present. The visual additions seem to make things look worse, which I suppose is an achievement in that I didn’t realise such a thing was possible.

 

[Cael]

druid

druid/ rogue/ wizard

May I introduce you to the Fochlucan Lyrist coupled with Sublime Chord?

 

[Jason Liang]

druid

druid/ rogue/ wizard

May I introduce you to the Fochlucan Lyrist coupled with Sublime Chord?

Not as much of a fan of Bard/ Druid though. It's ok, but Bard is really feat heavy and overall you have too many abilities to use practically. Druid/ Rogue, Wizard/ Rogue and Druid/ Wizard all have great synergies.

 

[Lilura]

Polemic loses its edge when it appears to get personal.

Not if it's well-written. And who said the review would appear personal? The CCC will know that the review has been changed; most readers will be oblivious.

 

[Cael]

druid

druid/ rogue/ wizard

May I introduce you to the Fochlucan Lyrist coupled with Sublime Chord?

Not as much of a fan of Bard/ Druid though. It's ok, but Bard is really feat heavy and overall you have too many abilities to use practically. Druid/ Rogue, Wizard/ Rogue and Druid/ Wizard all have great synergies.

It is a quad-threat build, just about the only one that is possible in 3.5, and it requires an understanding DM to pull off successfully (he needs to let the Divine Oracle's equivalent of Evasion to sub one of the requirements). You don't use the bard as a bard. You use him as a sorcerer, more or less. Illusions and enchantment heavy at first, and when Sublime Chord kicks in, full sorcerer.

If you like Druid/Wizard, I would suggest Dragonwrought Lorekeeper Kobold Druid/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge/Arcane Heirophant. You end up with 19 Druid/19 Sorcerer casting at worst. Mind you, if you play something like this at a table with a straight up Fighter 20, the DM should hit you with the DMG.

 

[Jason Liang]

It is a quad-threat build, just about the only one that is possible in 3.5, and it requires an understanding DM to pull off successfully (he needs to let the Divine Oracle's equivalent of Evasion to sub one of the requirements). You don't use the bard as a bard. You use him as a sorcerer, more or less. Illusions and enchantment heavy at first, and when Sublime Chord kicks in, full sorcerer.

If you like Druid/Wizard, I would suggest Dragonwrought Lorekeeper Kobold Druid/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge/Arcane Heirophant. You end up with 19 Druid/19 Sorcerer casting at worst. Mind you, if you play something like this at a table with a straight up Fighter 20, the DM should hit you with the DMG.

In NWN, druid/ wizard/ rogue is powerful and min-maxed enough. Druid 17/ Rogue 2/ Wizard 1 by level 20, -> Druid 20, Rogue 3/ Wizard 17 by level 40.

 

[Cael]

In NWN, druid/ wizard/ rogue is powerful and min-maxed enough. Druid 17/ Rogue 2/ Wizard 1 by level 20, -> Druid 20, Rogue 3/ Wizard 17 by level 40.

Not really. Throw in something with SR and that build is pretty much screwed. Caster level 20 vs something with 35 SR is basically good game. L40 Monk would be even worse, being 40+ SR, which make him invulnerable to any of your spells requiring SR rolls.

Monk 1/Druid 39 is a far better combination.

 

[AwesomeButton]

The Rabble

Hardly any of my business, since 1) this is your own blog, 2) I don't really care about Aurora-based games, but I wonder - doesn't this declaration of an agenda serve to de-value your own writings and materials? If you declare openly that you reserve the right to radically change your evaluation, this undermines the authority of both your current and future evaluation of the games.

 

[Jason Liang]

In NWN, druid/ wizard/ rogue is powerful and min-maxed enough. Druid 17/ Rogue 2/ Wizard 1 by level 20, -> Druid 20, Rogue 3/ Wizard 17 by level 40.

Not really. Throw in something with SR and that build is pretty much screwed. Caster level 20 vs something with 35 SR is basically good game. L40 Monk would be even worse, being 40+ SR, which make him invulnerable to any of your spells requiring SR rolls.

Monk 1/Druid 39 is a far better combination.

You have summons and several spells that ignore SR, including Creeping Doom.

 

[Cael]

In NWN, druid/ wizard/ rogue is powerful and min-maxed enough. Druid 17/ Rogue 2/ Wizard 1 by level 20, -> Druid 20, Rogue 3/ Wizard 17 by level 40.

Not really. Throw in something with SR and that build is pretty much screwed. Caster level 20 vs something with 35 SR is basically good game. L40 Monk would be even worse, being 40+ SR, which make him invulnerable to any of your spells requiring SR rolls.

Monk 1/Druid 39 is a far better combination.

You have summons and several spells that ignore SR, including Creeping Doom.

Generally, they are less effective than straight out disabling spells. A Monk, for example, would just punch them all to death while being virtually invulnerable to their damage (L20 Monks are DR 20/+1, remember?)

 

[Jason Liang]

In NWN, druid/ wizard/ rogue is powerful and min-maxed enough. Druid 17/ Rogue 2/ Wizard 1 by level 20, -> Druid 20, Rogue 3/ Wizard 17 by level 40.

Not really. Throw in something with SR and that build is pretty much screwed. Caster level 20 vs something with 35 SR is basically good game. L40 Monk would be even worse, being 40+ SR, which make him invulnerable to any of your spells requiring SR rolls.

Monk 1/Druid 39 is a far better combination.

You have summons and several spells that ignore SR, including Creeping Doom.

Generally, they are less effective than straight out disabling spells. A Monk, for example, would just punch them all to death while being virtually invulnerable to their damage (L20 Monks are DR 20/+1, remember?)

For me, 17 levels of wizard > +17 caster level just for spell resistance. You get invisibility, time stop, acid sheath, etc... also, why 1 level of monk? Monk is terrible. With 3 levels of rogue at least you get evasion and uncanny dodge, both useful.

The highest I like to take Druid is 24-26 ish, to max-out Owl's Insight. But when min-maxing, obviously Wiz levels 13-17 > Druid levels 21-25.

 

[Lilura]

The Rabble

Hardly any of my business, since 1) this is your own blog, 2) I don't really care about Aurora-based games, but I wonder - doesn't this declaration of an agenda serve to de-value your own writings and materials? If you declare openly that you reserve the right to radically change your evaluation, this undermines the authority of both your current and future evaluation of the games.

Never said radically. I'm not going to say something is shit when it isn't. At any rate, you make a good point and I've removed the remarks. Thanks.

 

[Cael]

For me, 17 levels of wizard > +17 caster level just for spell resistance. You get invisibility, time stop, acid sheath, etc... also, why 1 level of monk? Monk is terrible. With 3 levels of rogue at least you get evasion and uncanny dodge, both useful.

The highest I like to take Druid is 24-26 ish, to max-out Owl's Insight. But when min-maxing, obviously Wiz levels 13-17 > Druid levels 21-25.

No. Wrong calculation. You get +17 wizard caster levels, but your druid caster level is still 20. That means when you roll against SR, you roll +20 for druid spells and +17 for wizard spells, not +37 for both. For a guy with SR 32 (and it is fairly easy to get that with epic gear; heck that smith in the friendly drow city in HotU will put that on your weapon), that means you have to roll 12+ to get through his SR for your druid spells, and 15+ for wizard spells. If you run into higher SR, you are boned.

1 level of Monk gives you Wisdom to AC in any form. You are a druid. Think about it for a second. Also, as gravy, you get Evasion and Cleave at level 1 Monk.

 

[Jason Liang]

No. Wrong calculation. You get +17 wizard caster levels, but your druid caster level is still 20. That means when you roll against SR, you roll +20 for druid spells and +17 for wizard spells, not +37 for both. For a guy with SR 32 (and it is fairly easy to get that with epic gear; heck that smith in the friendly drow city in HotU will put that on your weapon), that means you have to roll 12+ to get through his SR for your druid spells, and 15+ for wizard spells. If you run into higher SR, you are boned.

I know this. I meant that I would rather take 17 levels of wizard to get 9 levels of wizard spells than 17 levels of druid just for spell resistance, which I don't really worry about as a druid, think about it.

1 level of Monk gives you Wisdom to AC in any form. You are a druid. Think about it for a second. Also, as gravy, you get Evasion and Cleave at level 1 Monk.

All of which is pointless (for the most part), whereas what you get in rogue (uncanny dodge) is really valuable.

 

[Cael]

All of which is pointless (for the most part), whereas what you get in rogue (uncanny dodge) is really valuable.

Uncanny Dodge retains your Dex to AC when flatfooted. A Monk's AC bonus never goes away even when you are flatfooted. They serve the same function when you are flatfooted, unless you ran into backstabbers. That is the only time when UD is better.

I won't argue with you on the whole 17 levels of wizard thing. It is one of those things where everyone has their own opinion. My experience is heavily coloured by TT, not so much NWN, so I tend to have different priorities.

 

[Jason Liang]

All of which is pointless (for the most part), whereas what you get in rogue (uncanny dodge) is really valuable.

Uncanny Dodge retains your Dex to AC when flatfooted. A Monk's AC bonus never goes away even when you are flatfooted. They serve the same function when you are flatfooted, unless you ran into backstabbers. That is the only time when UD is better.

I won't argue with you on the whole 17 levels of wizard thing. It is one of those things where everyone has their own opinion. My experience is heavily coloured by TT, not so much NWN, so I tend to have different priorities.

Yes but the Monk bonus goes away when you wear armor. It replaces armor, it doesn't stack with armor. The only time you aren't wearing armor is when shapeshifting, and if you are shapeshifting frequently in combat you aren't playing Druids correctly. Besides which, druid defense isn't AC based, which is the entire point.

 

[Cael]

Yes but the Monk bonus goes away when you wear armor. It replaces armor, it doesn't stack with armor. The only time you aren't wearing armor is when shapeshifting, and if you are shapeshifting frequently in combat you aren't playing Druids correctly. Besides which, druid defense isn't AC based, which is the entire point.

I am not seeing your point here. You are saying that 3 levels of rogue is better than 1 level of monk because of an ability that gives a bonus AC when you are flatfooted. When I pointed out that you get a similar AC bonus with 1 level of monk, you now turn around and say AC is not relevant. If that is the case, neither is 3 levels of rogue. Replace them with wizard for more bang for your buck.

Now, about the whole armour thing: You don't need it. It is a waste of time. The highest possible AC you can get in NWN is Monk 1/Druid 39+. That is something that has been calculated before. It depends on abusing the monk's Wis to AC bonus, coupled with Owl's Insight and Turtle Shell. I believe the max achieved was 59 or so, which means barring natural 20s, you aren't going to get hit by anyone. On top of that, you still have full casting ability (which I am presuming is what you are referring to when you talk about druid defences) and a lot of hp (d8 HD all the way) and better Fort saves for those pesky save-or-dies, and a better Ref save to augment your Evasion.

 

[Jason Liang]

AC doesn't matter since as a druid you really aren't worried about getting hit by melee or ranged attacks. What you are most worried about are AoE spells and other effects like Horrid Wilting, Ice Storm, dragon breath, etc... especially if they aren't elemental. Wizard levels give you access to (more) castings of Energy Buffer, as well as Spell Mantles, etc...

1 level of monk gives you a wisdom bonus to AC, but there are tons of effects that can give you an AC bonus. Uncanny Dodge is invaluable, and only a few classes can give you this feat, including rogue. Obviously it's not the only reason to take Rogue, as Rogue gets UMD, the other Rogue-specific skills and the Rogue weapon proficiencies which are also invaluable.

I'm not sure why I have to defend what is widely considered one of the best classes (rogue) over what is widely considered one of the worst classes (monk). While rogue's synergy with druid is not as obvious as monk's, it's much more effective in practice (at least when playing NWN). But perhaps the best way to explain the difference is the basic fact that Rogue abilities work with any equipment and in fact Rogue increases the equipment you can use (through UMD) whereas monk restricts the equipment you can use. That far outweighs whatever trivial AC bonus you get from a monk splash.

 

[Cael]

I'm not sure why I have to defend what is widely considered one of the best classes (rogue) over what is widely considered one of the worst classes (monk). While rogue's synergy with druid is not as obvious as monk's, it's much more effective in practice (at least when playing NWN). But perhaps the best way to explain the difference is the basic fact that Rogue abilities work with any equipment and in fact Rogue increases the equipment you can use (through UMD) whereas monk restricts the equipment you can use. That far outweighs whatever trivial AC bonus you get from a monk splash.

Rogue widely considered to be one of the best class? I would need a citation for that one, I'm afraid, because it goes opposite to everything I know about NWN and tabletop.

 

[Jason Liang]

I'm not sure why I have to defend what is widely considered one of the best classes (rogue) over what is widely considered one of the worst classes (monk). While rogue's synergy with druid is not as obvious as monk's, it's much more effective in practice (at least when playing NWN). But perhaps the best way to explain the difference is the basic fact that Rogue abilities work with any equipment and in fact Rogue increases the equipment you can use (through UMD) whereas monk restricts the equipment you can use. That far outweighs whatever trivial AC bonus you get from a monk splash.

Rogue widely considered to be one of the best class? I would need a citation for that one, I'm afraid, because it goes opposite to everything I know about NWN and tabletop.

Only 3 classses can get UMD: Rogues, Bards and Assassins. Bards are fun in their own way, but they do not get Uncanny Dodge, and neither do they get ANY extra weapon proficiencies. Rogue is pound for pound flat out superior to Bards. I'm not sure what else to say. Rogue is great at pretty much everything in NWN. Especially when combined with 1 level of Wizard (for Scribe Scroll) and Druid (for Druid feats and spellcasting).

Again, on paper it might seem the Monk wisdom bonus has good synergy with Druid, but it's trivial in practice. If you are shapeshifted, your only source of Wisdom bonus are spell effects like Owl's Insight, which can easily get dispelled or stripped. If you are not shapeshifted, then why aren't you wearing armor and using a shield instead?

Whereas the rogue's uncanny dodge is one of the most valuable feats druids can get from other classes. Taking an extreme example, if you are in Elder Air Elemental Form, your base Dexterity is 34 already. An Enhanced Cat's Grace raises that up to 41. That's IN ADDITION to the AC bonus you get from your armor's enhancement bonus.

 

[Cael]

Only 3 classses can get UMD: Rogues, Bards and Assassins. Bards are fun in their own way, but they do not get Uncanny Dodge, and neither do they get ANY extra weapon proficiencies. Rogue is pound for pound flat out superior to Bards. I'm not sure what else to say. Rogue is great at pretty much everything in NWN. Especially when combined with 1 level of Wizard (for Scribe Scroll) and Druid (for Druid feats and spellcasting).

I think I just lost IQ points reading that. I am now not sure if you are serious or just trolling...