NWN Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition - Beamdog's final enhancement - now with new premium modules

[Jason Liang]

Do you even play NWN?

 

[Cael]

Do you even play NWN?

Far more than you, by the sounds of it. Mod it, too.

Seriously, man. The second you said rogue is one of the best classes and then backed it up by saying a full caster class is trash compared to it... please stop embarrassing yourself.

 

[Jason Liang]

Do you even play NWN?

Far more than you, by the sounds of it. Mod it, too.

Seriously, man. The second you said rogue is one of the best classes and then backed it up by saying a full caster class is trash compared to it... please stop embarrassing yourself.

... rogue is not a caster class? r u serious? Do you not know what UMD is?

 

[Cael]

... rogue is not a caster class? r u serious? Do you not know what UMD is?

It isn't. I am. And far better than you, I suspect.

 

[aweigh]

Then, when citations of my unequaled commentary are thrown in the faces of those who post against me, they unwittingly enter into a state of unbridled buttmadness.

yhahaha that is some choice verbiage

 

[oldmanpaco]

The autism is strong with those two.

 

[Jason Liang]

... rogue is not a caster class? r u serious? Do you not know what UMD is?

It isn't. I am. And far better than you, I suspect.

I doubt. If you were familiar with NWN, I doubt I'd have to explain to you why Rogue is a stronger class than Bard, or why Monk is one of the weakest, if not THE weakest core class in the game.

 

[Cael]

... rogue is not a caster class? r u serious? Do you not know what UMD is?

It isn't. I am. And far better than you, I suspect.

I doubt. If you were familiar with NWN, I doubt I'd have to explain to you why Rogue is a stronger class than Bard, or why Monk is one of the weakest, if not THE weakest core class in the game.

The stupid part about your post is that you are making claims that has nothing to do with what I said. A sure sign of someone who has no proof other than his own opinions and has to verbal someone in order to "win". You are in good company in your safe space, snowflake.

Rogue a caster class... *shakes head* The loon actually thinks being able to use scrolls and wands somehow make you a caster, forgetting that real caster classes get to use them for free and thereby dismissing a caster class as not being as good a caster. A caster class that, I might add, ALSO has UMD and gives access to a class that is so strong, it is banned in many persistent worlds.

 

[DarKPenguiN]

Do you even play NWN?

Do you even lift, bro?

 

[Jason Liang]

Rogue a caster class... *shakes head* The loon actually thinks being able to use scrolls and wands somehow make you a caster, forgetting that real caster classes get to use them for free and thereby dismissing a caster class as not being as good a caster.

Claiming that Bard is a full caster class is absurd. Bard is a gimped caster.

A caster class that, I might add, ALSO has UMD

wtf are you adding, we all know that bard has UMD, I stated that very clearly already you nitwit. The point is that among the UMD classes, rogue is superior to bard in practical effectiveness. If you take a class to get UMD, 4 out of 5 times you'll be better off with rogue instead of bard.

and gives access to a class that is so strong, it is banned in many persistent worlds.

Which makes that prestige class strong, it does not make Bard itself strong or else Bard would be banned instead.

Before you twist my words into shit, I am not claiming Bard is a bad class. Bard is an interesting and effective class with a lot of abilities that can solve a variety of situations, both in and out of combat. Bardic spellcasting is occasionally useful but is definitely not a good reason to choose Bard over Rogue. But Bard is not even close to the value and utility of Rogue. Similar but overall inferior for a variety of reasons.

 

[octavius]

NWN

Shouldn't that be "NWN EE"?

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

... rogue is not a caster class? r u serious? Do you not know what UMD is?

A few posts later:

Claiming that Bard is a full caster class is absurd.

I know that the word “full” is dong a lot of work in that sentence, but surely you see the tension here? I’ve never seen anyone else refer to rogue as a caster class; using scrolls is not the same as having a spell book. Bards cast spells, end of story. I agree that they kind of suck in PnP and they must be even worse in single player NWN with only one companion to buff.

 

[Cael]

I know that the word “full” is dong a lot of work in that sentence, but surely you see the tension here? I’ve never seen anyone else refer to rogue as a caster class; using scrolls is not the same as having a spell book. Bards cast spells, end of story. I agree that they kind of suck in PnP and they must be even worse in single player NWN with only one companion to buff.

In NWN, Bard is a great lead in to Red Dragon Disciple and in the OC, opens up several quests that would otherwise be closed to you (Bard/Druid, gives access to all possible quests in the OC, while in SoU, you need Paladin/Sorcerer or Wizard to get access to all quests). I play Bard in NWN more often than any other class as a well-timed single level splash of it gives a lot of benefits, including Tumble and Spellcraft bonuses to AC and saves. The high Will and Ref saves is helpful to Fighter classes (if you are going RDD, you better have a strong fighter type base, for Pete's sake). A well-timed Bard level also opens up UMD to you at levels that can be useful, and in the OC, Charisma is the easiest stat to get a +12 bonus in (both the bard companion and the sorcerer companion give +Cha items in slots that you would be hard pressed to drop anything else in if you are going Cha based caster).

Bard in PnP is an odd beast, but in a diplomacy situation, it is hard to beat a well played Bard. Its spells are not boom-crash type affairs like other casters, but Illusions and Enchantments have their place and being a full caster means that it gets full caster levels, not the gimped half levels of Rangers and Paladins. Bards are not top tier, but they are nowhere near bottom tier either. Underestimating Bards is a good way to getting shanked by your own team members.

 

[Cael]

wtf are you adding, we all know that bard has UMD, I stated that very clearly already you nitwit. The point is that among the UMD classes, rogue is superior to bard in practical effectiveness. If you take a class to get UMD, 4 out of 5 times you'll be better off with rogue instead of bard.

Really? Prove it. What does rogue have that bard doesn't that makes rogue so much more powerful? Taking UMD out of the picture, there is no reason to take rogue. And don't tell me Uncanny Dodge because you torpedoed that yourself when you claim AC has no place in the game.

Which makes that prestige class strong, it does not make Bard itself strong or else Bard would be banned instead.

Strong or not, Bard gives access to it. Rogue doesn't. That is a positive in the Bard column, whether you like it or not.

Before you twist my words into shit, I am not claiming Bard is a bad class. Bard is an interesting and effective class with a lot of abilities that can solve a variety of situations, both in and out of combat. Bardic spellcasting is occasionally useful but is definitely not a good reason to choose Bard over Rogue. But Bard is not even close to the value and utility of Rogue. Similar but overall inferior for a variety of reasons.

I don't have to twist anything. You shoot yourself in the foot so well, that I am more than happy for you to continue to do so.

 

[Lilura]

I'm not sure why I have to defend what is widely considered one of the best classes (rogue) over what is widely considered one of the worst classes (monk).

The rabble has spoken. Rogue is pretty popular, though Monk is no slacker either.

yhahaha that is some choice verbiage

I've improved it a bit and credited you. Thanks.

 

[Jason Liang]

NWN

Shouldn't that be "NWN EE"?

I see no difference It doesn't look like anything to me

 

[Jason Liang]

wtf are you adding, we all know that bard has UMD, I stated that very clearly already you nitwit. The point is that among the UMD classes, rogue is superior to bard in practical effectiveness. If you take a class to get UMD, 4 out of 5 times you'll be better off with rogue instead of bard.

Really? Prove it. What does rogue have that bard doesn't that makes rogue so much more powerful? Taking UMD out of the picture, there is no reason to take rogue. And don't tell me Uncanny Dodge because you torpedoed that yourself when you claim AC has no place in the game.

I have.
- Uncanny Dodge, one of the best class feats in the game
- Evasion, useful against many AoE effects
- +3 skill points/ level over bard, considering bard has to commit 1 skill point to Perform to activate bardsong
- powerful anywhere from 1-16 levels, plateauing at 3 levels, whereas 3 levels of bard is kind of pathetic
- comes with a weapon proficiency while bard comes with jack shit and basically has to commit feats to Lingering Song, etc... bard is crap at fighting
- more class skills such as pick locks, disarm traps and set traps
- no alignment restriction
- no real attribute commitments either, whereas bard has to commit to CHA, an overall mediocre attribute
- starts gaining bonus class feats at level 10, which can be epic feats, whereas most core classes only gain them at lvl 20, including bard.

That's a laundry list of significant advantages and it doesn't even include Sneak Attack which has its uses.

As for RDD I'd rather take Sorcerer since i find 4 levels or so of Sorcerer more useful than 4 levels of Bard just for Tumble and Discipline. Same with Arcane Archer (although I'd rather take wizard over sorcerer for that prestige class).

I didn't claim AC has no place period, learn to read.

 

[Jimmious]

I for one support a NWN DUEL between the two gentlemen

 

[Fedora Master]

By the way, not to toot my own horn here but I did say Beamdog would be writing endless blog posts about shit that didn't matter and that the game would be almost the same as the original, which is exactly what happened.

 

[Lilura]

As I said at the end of this post, I'm done criticizing the EEs/Beamdog. It's time to get back to playing the classics.

 

[Lhynn]

So, anyone here want to talk about the actual game? not the reasons why you arent playing it.

 

[Lacrymas]

We've been talking about playing the actual game (not EE) in the stickied module thread for years, sooooo.

 

[fantadomat]

I do like to play with rogue in most rpgs,like to roleplay and the versatility that the class offers. Lilura what is your favourite class?

I must add that the AI for the enchanted editions is worst from what i saw. Dear Pavel from the tutorial section decided to go and read books while i was fighting goblins. Wasted 10 minutes trying to unstuck him. Honestly,did they have different teams doing those EEs? Torment was pretty decent job and the zoom out camera was nice. In this one there is absolutely nothing of worth.

 

[aweigh]

enchanted editions :D

 

[rogueknight333]

Rogue widely considered to be one of the best class? I would need a citation for that one, I'm afraid, because it goes opposite to everything I know about NWN and tabletop.

NWN rogues are very good (there are enough differences in the implementation of the rules to make comparisons to tabletop of dubious relevance). Sneak attack can do massive damage against anything not immune, setting a huge pile of traps is often an easy (if cheesy) way to beat enemies that would be almost impossible for any other class, and while it is a bit much to claim that Use Magic Device turns them into casters (scrolls and wands cast spells at a preset and usually low caster level, typically rendering them quite weak compared to spells from full-fledged casters), it is nevertheless a very useful skill. A typical DEX-based rogue can attain an extremely high AC by epic levels, and in conjunction with feats like Evasion and Epic Dodge is potentially one of the best tanks in the game. They of course also have access to more non-combat skills than any other class. One nice thing about Rogues is that they never stop adding benefits no matter how many levels you take (you keep getting more Sneak Attack damage, more bonus feats, and more skills), while most other classes will sooner or later hit a point of diminishing returns where more levels cease to offer all that much.

That said, Monk is typically a better complement for Druids in particular, since both can get significant benefits from high Wisdom, and it offers many of the same benefits as a few Rogue levels, such as access to Evasion and Tumble as a class skill. With a Monk level and the Zen Archery feat, one can use just the one stat, Wisdom, to boost AB, AC and spell-casting power, and since Ability points are finite the more of them one can concentrate into a single Ability the better. Pure Monks may not be that great, but everything is bad in NWN if single classed (with the possible exception of the four major caster classes (Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard - and even they would be less than optimal at level 40 with out a mix-in class or two, just not terrible).

Ultimately one can only assess the value of a class in context: what other classes is it combined with, what sort of magical gear is available in the environment (e.g., whether Monk's WIS bonus is better than using a shield can depend a lot on how good the available shields are), what the typical AB of mobs is (affects what AC one would want to have), etc.

... Bards cast spells, end of story. I agree that they kind of suck in PnP and they must be even worse in single player NWN with only one companion to buff.

Actually Bards are a pretty good class in NWN. It is only in the first NWN campaign that one is limited to a single companion: SOU & HOTU both allow two, and many of the community made modules allow even more. In any case, the buffs of Bard Song from a high level Bard, coupled with the de facto additional buffs from Curse Song (e.g., if you reduce an enemy's AB and AC, you have effectively raised your AC and AB) can be substantial enough that they are nothing to sneeze at even if a Bard has no companions at all and is only buffing himself. A Bard can also easily take rather OP prestige classes like Arcane Archer, Red Dragon Disciple, and Palemaster, and combine them with Song bonuses and miscellaneous buffing spells to become a real powerhouse.

As a rule, the warrior classes are the worst ones in NWN, since Clerics generally make better warriors than the actual warrior classes. They are still quite useful as mix-ins for classes like Rogue, Cleric, and Bard/RDD.