NWN Neverwinter Nights (NWN & NWN2) Modules Thread

[DeepOcean]

 

[Jason Liang]

Lilura's laptop is broken. Her

s are really supposed to be

s.

 

[ProphetSword]

Came for a discussion of Neverwinter Nights modules, found angry erotic foreplay.

 

[Lhynn]

We will suffer the consequences how?

If you believe none of the immense changes to gameplay would touch the standard mode then you are naive. Its more than merely changing the camera and allowing the player to drag and select. Every character would need their own skillbar, the inventory system would need to change
Then theres the fact that if there was no balance before and people were complaining about some of the PRC classes being too good, theres no single character build that can compete with anything you could do with a 2 character combination handled by one player in this game.
Allowing people to use two characters would also bring a whole new bunch of problems from a design standpoint, a lot more thought would have to be put into the making of each module so it doesnt break when you have to characters at different points of the map when the story develops. Or if one has a needed item but isnt there? youd have to create new limitations like distance between players affecting trading items between inventories (both problems are admitedly adressed in multiplayer modules tho).

Also how would this even work? how would it affect the game if you could switch on the fly? what if the changes are such that you cant? would you have to restart the game to enable "party mode" and have the UI completely change to accommodate the new mode? or would the UI change on the fly? which doesnt seem like something aurora can actually do.

Finally this was already tried and it failed, why try again when its clearly one of the things that put people off in the sequel. Designing for a single character per player is much easier, and the limitations that come with it actually allow the designer to give the player more freedom.

 

[Lacrymas]

Finally this was already tried and it failed, why try again when its clearly one of the things that put people off in the sequel.

While I agree with what you say about this issue, I'm not entirely sure about the NWN2 argument. While it is true that NWN1 is much, much, muuuuuch more popular, both with players and builders, we have no definite proof that it's because of the lack of full party control. It might just be because the Electron engine is much shittier and the editor is harder to use (even if it's more powerful).

 

[DeepOcean]

Finally this was already tried and it failed, why try again when its clearly one of the things that put people off in the sequel.

While I agree with what you say about this issue, I'm not entirely sure about the NWN2 argument. While it is true that NWN1 is much, much, muuuuuch more popular, both with players and builders, we have no definite proof that it's because of the lack of full party control. It might just be because the Electron engine is much shittier and the editor is harder to use (even if it's more powerful).

From my experience, the editor has performance issues, crash with an annoying frequency and while it isn't impossible to make something for it, the way the editor is designed, you can't be efficient with your time.

 

[mediocrepoet]

you really don't know who you're dealing with, do you?

I'm Lilura who gets 70,000 hits per month on a blog that covers mods for a 15 year old game

What's it like imagining that anyone gives a shit about your blog and that you're big time internet famous? Just curious.

 

[DeepOcean]

If you believe none of the immense changes to gameplay would touch the standard mode then you are naive. Its more than merely changing the camera and allowing the player to drag and select. Every character would need their own skillbar, the inventory system would need to change

The inventory itself wont need to change, you can give weapons and equip your henchmen already on NWN 1. Yeah, each player will need its skill bar but I don't think this would be the end of the world to do and I actually believe it would be much easier than try to implement a decent Ai code.

You have to keep in mind that Beam Dog is charging for a 15 years old game so I don't feel a single drop of emphaty for them when they say "It is much work for us, leave us alone!"

Then theres the fact that if there was no balance before and people were complaining about some of the PRC classes being too good, theres no single character build that can compete with anything you could do with a 2 character combination handled by one player in this game.

This change, the way it is suggested by me and others, won't change any balance on the official campaigns as you will remain not being able to control the henchmen so talking of balance is a moot point as it is a non existent issue. The same apply for any mod which the modder decided to not change to include party control. Our suggestion isn't the player having the choice to activate party control, this should only be activated at toolset level by the modder that could just don't do it if he is afraid it will affect the balance of the game.

Allowing people to use two characters would also bring a whole new bunch of problems from a design standpoint, a lot more thought would have to be put into the making of each module so it doesnt break when you have to characters at different points of the map when the story develops. Or if one has a needed item but isnt there? youd have to create new limitations like distance between players affecting trading items between inventories (both problems are admitedly adressed in multiplayer modules tho).

Bioware already solved all those issues with Baldur's Gate 2, I honestly believe that if it is too hard for Beamdog to implement this, they should start selling beer like the doctors are doing now instead of trying to be game developers.

Also how would this even work? how would it affect the game if you could switch on the fly? what if the changes are such that you cant? would you have to restart the game to enable "party mode" and have the UI completely change to accommodate the new mode? or would the UI change on the fly? which doesnt seem like something aurora can actually do.

As I already said, the player shouldn't be able to change into a party mode, this should be a choice of the modder, if the player doesn't want to play on full party mode and the modder made his module for this option, well, he should play the other 400 or so modules with single character combat. About the Ui changing on the fly on aurora, this already happened, NWN 1 OC doesn't support henchmen inventory while the expansions support it, so if you play NWN 1 OC, you won't even see the inventory Ui.

Finally this was already tried and it failed, why try again when its clearly one of the things that put people off in the sequel. Designing for a single character per player is much easier, and the limitations that come with it actually allow the designer to give the player more freedom.

NWN 2 didn't fail sales wise, it was a successful game with two official expansions and an unofficial one supported by Atari, the failure of the modding community into expanding on NWN 2 was the result of in part the editor not helping, in part many modders not wanting to stop development on their series to start learning on a toolset they didn't dominate and in part NWN 2 coming late to the party, many modders didn't want to leave NWN 1, that already had a developed community with ginormous content packs available for modders, with obscene amounts of content to be included on modules, for NWN 2 that was the new and underdeveloped thing, in the end, alot of players abandoned the NWN 1 modding community way before NWN 2 community could even be a thing. None of those things are relevant now 15 years later.

 

[Lhynn]

The inventory itself wont need to change, you can give weapons and equip your henchmen already on NWN 1. Yeah, each player will need its skill bar but I don't think this would be the end of the world to do and I actually believe it would be much easier than try to implement a decent Ai code.

A separated skillbar for every character would mean you would need to touch the entire control scheme of the game. It would also mean modifying the UI and would actually also lead to changing how you fight. Would also have to increase the amount of pausing in combat exponentially, and would be shit for pws without the pause feature. Would also mean touching upon every single summon in the game and how you handle them.

You have to keep in mind that Beam Dog is charging for a 15 years old game so I don't feel a single drop of emphaty for them when they say "It is much work for us, leave us alone!"

Yeah no, they arent good enough to actually improve games, now you want them to add features to the gameplay. You may be hesitante to give them your sympathy, but im not asking for that, i just dont want them to ruin this shit like they did with almost every single feature implemented in every game they ever "improved", especially one that will fundamentally change how the game is played.

This change, the way it is suggested by me and others, won't change any balance on the official campaigns as you will remain not being able to control the henchmen so talking of balance is a moot point as it is a non existent issue. The same apply for any mod which the modder decided to not change to include party control. Our suggestion isn't the player having the choice to activate party control, this should only be activated at toolset level by the modder that could just don't do it if he is afraid it will affect the balance of the game.

You are missing the entire point. The powercurve of a single character in nwn is insane, you can have a complete unplayable garbage of a character or a superman, and when designing a module you have to keep that in mind. A player consistently powerbuilding a companion along with his main character will have a very high snowball effect, a player building their companion badly will do the opposite.

Bioware already solved all those issues with Baldur's Gate 2, I honestly believe that if it is too hard for Beamdog to implement this, they should start selling beer like the doctors are doing now instead of trying to be game developers.

This is like saying that wasteland 2 also solved the issue already. Who gives a fuck, different game, different dev, different code.

As I already said, the player shouldn't be able to change into a party mode, this should be a choice of the modder, if the player doesn't want to play on full party mode and the modder made his module for this option, well, he should play the other 400 or so modules with single character combat. About the Ui changing on the fly on aurora, this already happened, NWN 1 OC doesn't support henchmen inventory while the expansions support it, so if you play NWN 1 OC, you won't even see the inventory Ui.

What you are proposing is having basically 2 games and players being forced into a different gameplay if the modder decides it should be so. I dont want to have to select my character and send him to attack, i dont want my selection to be cancelled, and i dont want to see UI elements that i dont want to use. All for a tacked on feature that is at best a retarded gimmick. Not on nwn at least.

NWN 2 didn't fail sales wise

Yeah, neither did dragon age 2.

it was a successful game with two official expansions and an unofficial one supported by Atari, the failure of the modding community into expanding on NWN 2 was the result of in part the editor not helping, in part many modders not wanting to stop development on their series to start learning on a toolset they didn't dominate and in part NWN 2 coming late to the party, many modders didn't want to leave NWN 1, that already had a developed community with ginormous content packs available for modders, with obscene amounts of content to be included on modules, for NWN 2 that was the new and underdeveloped thing, in the end, alot of players abandoned the NWN 1 modding community way before NWN 2 community could even be a thing. None of those things are relevant now 15 years later.

Those issues coupled with different gameplay, horrible performance, bad camera, bugs and a litany of issues helped disappoint the entire community. But make no mistake, the sequel being an entire different game with roughly the same ruleset wasnt a small thing, people just didnt feel like playing it.

Nwn2 didnt offer anything attractive over nwn1, which is why it failed.

 

[Lilura]

Nwn2 didnt offer anything attractive over nwn1

To name a few off-hand: Full party control, chargen and building (party of six with SoZ + Leadership feat), marquee selection, strategy cam (best RPG cam ever, see my blog for proof), Overland Map (SoZ), Persistent Spell, 3.5 Edition rules (way more options), Mask of the Betrayer (one of the best RPGs ever), painted terrain, XML UI, multithreaded toolset, better lightning and shadows, etc. etc. etc.

I'm not saying NWN2 is better than NWN but stop talking shit pls.

 

[Lhynn]

To name a few off-hand: Full party control

You liked it, i didnt. It wasnt what nwn was about to me.

chargen and building

nwn1 had better chargen. and a more interesting take on the ruleset. I dont know what retard thought bringing in races with LA was a good idea (tho to me the worst part was how it was implemented), that person should be shoot and left to rot, a burial would be too good for xir.

strategy cam (best RPG cam ever, see my blog for proof)

Nothing about the oversensitive cam was any good.

Overland Map

Yeah, nice try, module features dont count.

Persistent Spell

A feat? You are putting here a feat? talk about running out of shit to list.

3.5 Edition rules

Alright sure, more options are always good. Go back a few pages and tell me why they shouldnt add more options for character building in nwn1. Talk about contradicting yourself.

Mask of the Betrayer

Again, not a feature of the game, merely a module. And it had good writing. But if we are bringing modules, i think you can name more than a few good nwn1 modules.

painted terrain

Cared no one ever.

UI

I actually hated the UI, the inventory management was cancer and i missed the more straightforward nwn1 UI, had better visibility too.

multithreaded toolset

The toolset was garbage.

better lightning and shadows, etc. etc. etc.

Graphic whoring was a detriment to its modability and accesibility. This is actually a con, which isnt surprising considering that most of your pros are actually completely trivial or wrong.

I'm not saying NWN2 is better than NWN but stop talking shit pls.

Im saying nwn2 was trash with a good expansion.

 

[Lilura]

You said NWN2 doesn't offer anything attractive. That may be true for you, but not for everyone.

1. The strategy cam is not overly sensitive. This is just a lie.
2. There are no modules for NWN as good as MotB, other than maybe Swordflight. But SF is different, anyway.

"cared no one ever" about the painted terrain? You are not everyone. Harp & Crysanthemum and Bedine have more interesting terrain than NWN could achieve with its tilesets.

You can dismiss everything here as trivial but, at the end of the day, what I casually listed are attractive to some people.

 

[Semper]

Nwn2 didnt offer anything attractive over nwn1, which is why it failed.

where did it fail? like nwn1 it's still being played. in its almost 12th year there's still a modding community creating content. there are persitant worlds. there are tools being released - most recently freshlook (finally!) reverse engineered the gr2 file format and for the first time in its life custom animations / creatures will be possible with freeware tools like blender. if anything the future of nwn2 looks very promising. it's true that the community and player base ain't as big as nwn1's, but that doesn't matter because there's nothing around the corner offering the same experience.
today even the toolset ain't that overwhelming anymore. nowadays modders are used to sculpting terrain and how much time it takes to make your area look good. it's a tried and true way of working almost every engine/toolset uses.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

So what's the definitive nwn module for Ravenloft?
There's like multiple versions of the same module, with tweaks by individuals.
As far as Nwn2 we got Misery Stone, and Ravenloft Dreamscape, whuch are pretty good, with Dreamscape being closer to the original RL, with randomized elements and everything.

 

[Lilura]

I didn't get an answer when I inquired in my Core write-up, which lists:

• Ravenloft: Night of the Walking Dead, by Cher_Wetter
• Return to Ravenloft & Ravenloft: Beyond the Gate, by Firestarter
• Spires of Ravenloft, by evan.yeung
• I, Strahd, Nosferatu & Thoughts of Darkness, by Kenneth J. La Mella - Are these the best Ravenloft modules? I remember enjoying them. What do you think? Good enough for core?
• Lord of Ravenloft, Champions of the Mists, Final Chapter, Companions of the Hall in Night of a Thousand Zombies, Companions of the Hall in Myth Drannor, by Kenneth J. La Mella - More Ravenloft modules by Kenneth; dear me. So, how about these for core status?

EDIT-
By campaign setting.

 

[Lhynn]

it's true that the community and player base ain't as big as nwn1's, but that doesn't matter because there's nothing around the corner offering the same experience.

Except it does matter, because it directly competes with nwn1, and it clearly lost that competition.

today even the toolset ain't that overwhelming anymore. nowadays modders are used to sculpting terrain and how much time it takes to make your area look good. it's a tried and true way of working almost every engine/toolset uses.

Accesibility was nwn2s toolset biggest problem, that will always remain a problem. Time wont change that.

 

[Semper]

it does in no way compete with nwn1, and never has. there simply is no other highly moddable 3d dnd 3.5 party based crpg. there was a fluctuation from nwn1 to nwn2 after the successor was released, not the other way around. note that i am not talking about those people who found the editing tools too complex and therefore switched back to nwn1 after a few days of fruitless endeavor. the people starting with nwn2 or seriously switching from nwn1 to nwn2 either stuck with the latter or later left both communities to do other things with their time.

Accesibility was nwn2s toolset biggest problem, that will always remain a problem. Time wont change that.

that's bollocks. both the elder scrolls construction set and the used content pipeline are on a similar "advanced" technological level. source engine games are on par too. the arma series is on a similar level. all those examples have huge, dedicated, and years old modding communities, despite their complex editors - and trust me, i extensively worked with every toolset and know what i am talking about here. the real stopping power was obsidian's decision to use rad game tools. the granny format is proprietary data (which is also the reason why expotron was eradicated later) and for years there was no big custom content backbone to keep nwn2 fresh. at least not without access to 3dsmax, costing thousands of dollars.

 

[Dorateen]

To name a few off-hand: Full party control, chargen and building (party of six with SoZ + Leadership feat), marquee selection, strategy cam (best RPG cam ever, see my blog for proof), Overland Map (SoZ), Persistent Spell, 3.5 Edition rules (way more options), Mask of the Betrayer (one of the best RPGs ever), painted terrain, XML UI, multithreaded toolset, better lightning and shadows, etc. etc. etc.

I'd also include the Party Chat system. It's the best innovation I've seen to branching dialogue conversations implemented in computer role-playing games.

 

[Bocian]

So what's the definitive nwn module for Ravenloft?

There is also a big PW server in Ravenloft setting, called Prisoners of the Mists. I suggest trying it out, it was fun.

 

[Lhynn]

it does in no way compete with nwn1

You are delusional.

there simply is no other highly moddable 3d dnd 3.5 party based crpg.

Ergo why they compete. Unless you are insinuating that there are great differences between a game in 3rd edition and a game in 3.5.

there was a fluctuation from nwn1 to nwn2 after the successor was released

They both competed for attention. Most people tried nwn2 and went back to the first one, because fuck nwn2.

the people starting with nwn2 or seriously switching from nwn1 to nwn2 either stuck with the latter or later left both communities to do other things with their time.

Or they went back to nwn1 after giving up on 2. Happened very often in the communities i played in.

that's bollocks. both the elder scrolls construction set and the used content pipeline are on a similar "advanced" technological level. source engine games are on par too. the arma series is on a similar level. all those examples have huge, dedicated, and years old modding communities, despite their complex editors

Thats gargabe, none of those games is prepared to deal with the complexity of a proper nwn module from a gameplay standpoint. Not from a narrative standpoint anyway.
Almost no good story gets told in those engines, and if it does the time and resource investment is astronomical, leaving the more casual players out. That is the beauty of nwn1, anyone can use it.
The sheer amount of nwn modules we got thanks to how easy it was to work with is the reason we got so much good player content.
Thats something we havent gotten since and well probably never get again, and it was nwn2 biggest failure.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

So what's the definitive nwn module for Ravenloft?

There is also a big PW server in Ravenloft setting, called Prisoners of the Mists. I suggest trying it out, it was fun.

I remember that one. Couldn't get it to work for some reason. Might as well check it out.

 

[Lilura]

and trust me, i extensively worked with every toolset and know what i am talking about here.

Please link to the fruits of your endeavors.

 

[Semper]

Thats gargabe, none of those games is prepared to deal with the complexity of a proper nwn module from a gameplay standpoint. Not from a narrative standpoint anyway. Almost no good story gets told in those engines, and if it does the time and resource investment is astronomical, leaving the more casual players out.

just to remind you of your own words and the statement i was refering to:

Accesibility was nwn2s toolset biggest problem, that will always remain a problem. Time wont change that.

accessibility was not nwn2's biggest problem. it could be that it was your personal gripe with the toolset, but complex tools are not what really hampers the growth and the lifetime of modding communities. else there were none supporting the given examples years after the initial release. those editors, especially creating levels/areas and models, are in no way easier than what is needed to create similar content for nwn2. this has nothing to do with how good those engines excel in telling stories. btw you still have not presented in what way nwn2 failed. it's alive and kicking last i checked.

The sheer amount of nwn modules we got thanks to how easy it was to work with is the reason we got so much good player content. Thats something we havent gotten since and well probably never get again, and it was nwn2 biggest failure.

you're right that the entry level for modding nwn1 is very low, and that this nurtured the community and helped to spread the word. it's still a false assumption that nwn2 did anything wrong in having a more powerful toolset or different systems, like the sculpted terrain mesh. again, after 12 years its community is there creating content.

ps: i am not aware of a biggish group of modders going back to nwn1 after seriously working with the electron toolset. again, i am not talking about those who left after a few days of trying. you sound like the nwn2 community bled dry because of droves returning to nwn1. such a thing never happened. if anything, lots of well known names reappeared for dao's toolset later.

Please link to the fruits of your endeavors.

i mostly mod for friends and myself, never really finishing anything for the public. also i am hardly satisfied with my work - your own worst critic, you name it. over the years i worked with and built levels for the build engine, the doom engine, numerous versions of gtkradiant (id tech 2-4), the hammer editor (goldsrc, source 1/2), source filmmaker, aurora/electron toolsets, terrain builder/buldozer/eden editor for arma 3 (vr engine 4), creation kit and g.e.c.k. editors for gamebryo, dromed (dark engine), gta1-2 editor, unrealed (ue 1-3), maxed (max-fx 1-2), vampire redemption sdk (nod engine), the aow3 mod/editor (creation engine), the map editors for wc1-3 and sc1-2, the dragon age toolset, the divinity engine 1-2, and a few dcc apps like gimp, blender, gmax, krita, silo, etc. even at my 9 to 5 job i have to use dozens of tools and editors. i know my way around them, and i think that i have a pretty good grasp of what i am talking about here.

why your inquiry?

 

[Lhynn]

accessibility was not nwn2's biggest problem.

For its toolset and its longevity it was. You may argue that the community is still alive, but you can say the same for games released in the 90s, its a matter of numbers, not if some people are still working on it or not. It is not a binary value.

else there were no communities supporting the given examples years after the initial release.

You clearly have problems understanding the level of success and quality of modules we got in nwn1 and 2.

those editors, especially creating levels/areas and models, are in no way easier than what is needed to create similar content for nwn2.

Fuck editors, im talking about regular joes putting together a 2 hour module in an afternoon with content quality that cannot be reproduced in nwn2 over an entire weekend, or in skyrim in 3 months of actual hard work.

btw you still have not presented in what way nwn2 failed. it's alive and kicking last i checked.

We are talking scale, nwn2 was dead in the waterd a couple months after release when compared to nwn1 in its heyday or even at the time.

 

[Semper]

We are talking scale, nwn2 was dead in the waterd a couple months after release when compared to nwn1 in its heyday or even at the time.

to put this all in context: you are going from accessibility of the toolset to the ability to tell stories within the given engine to finally end at the scale of the community, all to drive home that nwn2 has failed and was dead months after release; which would be around 2007. well, you seem to have a long buried grudge against nwn2. i'll leave it at that.