NWN Neverwinter Nights (NWN & NWN2) Modules Thread

[Gargaune]

Well, that's what I was thinking about in the beginning of my post. I imagine the multi class xp penalty rules are different with 8 classes enabled. Let's say you choose 3 and have taken lvls that would cause an xp penalty under vanilla rules. Do you still take the penalty as you normally would? Not sure if this is explained anywhere.

https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Multiclass_penalty

If a multiclass character's classes are not nearly the same level, then he suffers a multiclass penalty of -20% XP for each class that is not within 1 level of his most experienced class.

Dunno, but a -140% XP penalty would be sweet. "Rat dies. You earn -2 XP. You are now level drained."

 

[rogueknight333]

It won't, Beamdog wouldn't have billed it as "configurable per-module" in the current patch otherwise...

I know that is the theory, but doubtless someone will release a mod to allow this in any module soon enough.

Well, that's what I was thinking about in the beginning of my post. I imagine the multi class xp penalty rules are different with 8 classes enabled...

AFAIK, the rules are the same, i.e., you would suffer a penalty for every class you take that is more than one level higher than any other class you have, with your race's favored class and prestige classes not counting for this purpose. Manage your multi-classing correctly and there is no reason to suffer any XP penalty no matter how many classes you take. E.g. Rogue 2/Monk 1/Bard 2/Assassin 1/Shadowdancer 1/Palemaster 4/Wizard 20/Arcane Archer 10 should not suffer any penalty assuming Wizard is a favored class, as it would be for Human, Elf, Half-elf or Gnome.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

It won't, Beamdog wouldn't have billed it as "configurable per-module" in the current patch otherwise...

I know that is the theory, but doubtless someone will release a mod to allow this in any module soon enough.

Well, that's what I was thinking about in the beginning of my post. I imagine the multi class xp penalty rules are different with 8 classes enabled...

AFAIK, the rules are the same, i.e., you would suffer a penalty for every class you take that is more than one level higher than any other class you have, with your race's favored class and prestige classes not counting for this purpose. Manage your multi-classing correctly and there is no reason to suffer any XP penalty no matter how many classes you take. E.g. Rogue 2/Monk 1/Bard 2/Assassin 1/Shadowdancer 1/Palemaster 4/Wizard 20/Arcane Archer 10 should not suffer any penalty assuming Wizard is a favored class, as it would be for Human, Elf, Half-elf or Gnome.

Maybe just take one of each class. Crom knows there are enough classes.

 

[NecroLord]

It won't, Beamdog wouldn't have billed it as "configurable per-module" in the current patch otherwise...

I know that is the theory, but doubtless someone will release a mod to allow this in any module soon enough.

Well, that's what I was thinking about in the beginning of my post. I imagine the multi class xp penalty rules are different with 8 classes enabled...

AFAIK, the rules are the same, i.e., you would suffer a penalty for every class you take that is more than one level higher than any other class you have, with your race's favored class and prestige classes not counting for this purpose. Manage your multi-classing correctly and there is no reason to suffer any XP penalty no matter how many classes you take. E.g. Rogue 2/Monk 1/Bard 2/Assassin 1/Shadowdancer 1/Palemaster 4/Wizard 20/Arcane Archer 10 should not suffer any penalty assuming Wizard is a favored class, as it would be for Human, Elf, Half-elf or Gnome.

The problem with multiclass characters or those who have dozens of levels in different classes is that they will not be fully accomplished in either of them. Sure, they can be very versatile, but they will not fully reap the fruits of any one class. This is especially true if a class is a full caster like a Wizard or Cleric. Barbarian is also a class which gains new class features the more levels you have in it. Also a very popular choice for class dip, barbarians do fucking insane amounts of damage (hello Ubercharger build).
Don't even get me started on the Frenzied Berserker...

 

[ProphetSword]

I don't see the big deal if more classes are allowed, since by default the version of D&D it's built upon didn't have a limitation on the number of different classes you could take. In my experience, unless you're doing some kind of specific long-term build, taking a ton of classes is sub-optimal anyway. Sure, maybe you'll end up with a warrior who can lay on hands, throw a Magic Missile and cast a Cure Light Wounds on himself, but is that really better than being a straight level 5 Fighter or Mage? Probably not.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Sure, maybe you'll end up with a warrior who can lay on hands, throw a Magic Missile and cast a Cure Light Wounds on himself, but is that really better than being a straight level 5 Fighter or Mage? Probably not

Don't the BAB from each martial class add up though. Like, 1 level fighter + 1 level paladin + 1 level barbarian is the same as three levels in any of the classes, babwise.

 

[Gargaune]

I know that is the theory, but doubtless someone will release a mod to allow this in any module soon enough.

You don't need to worry about that as a module builder, though, no more than you should about the existence of dm_god. Besides, while the average player could, hypothetically, install such a mod and grab min-maxed 4-multiclass builds off the internet, they're unlikely to care or even grasp the challenge discrepancy. The only people whose experience could be meaningfully impacted are the veteran powergamers, but they're also the most likely to understand exactly what they're doing when they slap in a blanket .2da override.

 

[NecroLord]

Sure, maybe you'll end up with a warrior who can lay on hands, throw a Magic Missile and cast a Cure Light Wounds on himself, but is that really better than being a straight level 5 Fighter or Mage? Probably not

Don't the BAB from each martial class add up though. Like, 1 level fighter + 1 level paladin + 1 level barbarian is the same as three levels in any of the classes, babwise.

Exactly.
Doing full BAB multiclass makes no sense (unless it's a Fighter for those nice bonus feats or a Barbarian for Rage).

 

[KainenMorden]

I don't see the big deal if more classes are allowed, since by default the version of D&D it's built upon didn't have a limitation on the number of different classes you could take. In my experience, unless you're doing some kind of specific long-term build, taking a ton of classes is sub-optimal anyway. Sure, maybe you'll end up with a warrior who can lay on hands, throw a Magic Missile and cast a Cure Light Wounds on himself, but is that really better than being a straight level 5 Fighter or Mage? Probably not.

It's debatable at lvl 5 but triple classed characters will always be stronger in the long run, even more so if you can take 8 classes.

 

[rogueknight333]

The problem with multiclass characters or those who have dozens of levels in different classes is that they will not be fully accomplished in either of them...

I don't see the big deal if more classes are allowed, since by default the version of D&D it's built upon didn't have a limitation on the number of different classes you could take. In my experience, unless you're doing some kind of specific long-term build, taking a ton of classes is sub-optimal anyway...

Obviously there are trade-offs and you need to know what you are doing, but there are definitely a fair number of classes that confer significant benefits for only one or several classes. E.g., Monk provides bonus attacks, the ability to add WIS modifier to AC, Evasion and a free Cleave feat with just one level, Shadowdancer provides the very OP Hide in Plain Sight feat with just one level, Paladin provides various bonuses to any high CHA character with just one level, just 4 levels of any full BAB class can get you the full 4 attacks at lvl 20, and so on. You also have very powerful classes like Arcane Archer, Red Dragon Disciple and Palemaster that confer huge benefits on a warrior type, but as things stand are somewhat balanced by the fact that you need to waste one of your precious class slots on a rather useless arcane caster level as a pre-requisite. Among other expanded options: from a power-builder's perspective, more class slots is a really big deal.

You don't need to worry about that as a module builder, though, no more than you should about the existence of dm_god...

Yes, people who are determined to break the game balance are going to break it, one way or another, and already do with things like PRC, so I am not saying it is that big a deal from a module builder's perspective. Though if it does become normal to play with more than 3 class slots it raises the question of what group a builder wants to cater to. It would be really hard to balance encounters for both those using only 3 classes and those going wild with enhanced munchkinism.

 

[KainenMorden]

I think that those who do things like use PRC or remove the +12 to ability score cap and try to justify it because EE allows it to be disabled aren't looking for a real challenge either way.

Builders should do what they think this is best but my limited experience with the NWN community on reddit leads me to believe that the majority of players that enjoy modules like SF want a legitimate challenge and want to play the modules in the way they were balanced for and they see using PRC for instance as cheating.

Funnily enough, those that complained about SF's difficulty then play it with PRC and recommend PRC to others but don't like being reminded that SF is not balanced against it. It will be interesting to see what effect this has on the community but I'd guess won't change much though I could be wrong.

 

[Gargaune]

Yes, people who are determined to break the game balance are going to break it, one way or another, and already do with things like PRC, so I am not saying it is that big a deal from a module builder's perspective. Though if it does become normal to play with more than 3 class slots it raises the question of what group a builder wants to cater to. It would be really hard to balance encounters for both those using only 3 classes and those going wild with enhanced munchkinism.

Well, if you wanted to go the extra mile in controlling balance for the 3-class standard, you could just copy the default ruleset.2da into the module's .hak. You might get the odd grognard grumble about really wanting to play a particular powerbuild, but I imagine most would roll with it even if expanded multiclasses became the more popular choice.

 

[Gargaune]

Guys, question - does light affect stealth in NWN? By light I mean stuff like Torches, the Light spell or items enchanted with the Light effect. I always seemed to remember the game said somewhere that they did affect stealth, and indeed the NWN wiki notes Spot modifiers for light sources and even "night" time, although a couple of people on Reddit seemed to suggest otherwise (the one confirming it is talking about NWN2).

+10 DC if the spotter is in combat.
+5 DC if the target is standing still.
-5 DC if the spotter is standing still.
Size modifiers (tiny: +8, small: +4, medium: 0, large: -4, huge: -8).
Area spot check modifiers.
+5 DC for stealthed players (only), if they are in the back arc.
+5 DC at night if the spotter does not have a light (or darkvision).
-10 DC at night if the target has a light source on them.

So is that actually working in-game, light sources will apply penalties to the Hide/Spot check? And what about at night, presumably the game would check the clock on areas that have Cycle Day/Night enabled, but what about perma-lit outdoors at 2am or interiors?


P.S. Just if anyone's curious, I followed the NWN Wiki source to an archived post from a BioWare programmer who provided the above modifiers.

Spoiler

Blargh. Had all the modifiers typed up, and then went for lunch... stupid forum timeouts .

Listen/Move Silently:

* Automatically cannot detect silenced creatures
* Can only detect invisible (or when you're blind) creatures within the max attack range.
* Cannot hear sanctuaried creatures
* If there is something between you and the target (including creatures) there's a modifier of +5 DC for every 40cm of thickness in outdoor areas
* In indoor areas, if the LOS is blocked and the target is within 4 tiles (dfs search) there's a modifier of +2 DC
* Area listen check modifiers
* +10 DC if you are in combat
* +5 DC if the target is standing still
* -5 DC if you are standing still
* +1 DC for every 3 meters of distance to the target
* Relative size modifiers (Tiny: +8, Small: +4, Medium: 0, Large: -4, Huge: -8)
* Favoured enemy bonuses

Spot/Hide In Shadows:

* Automatically cannot detect invisible creatures
* Automatically cannot detect anything while blinded
* Area spot check modifiers
* During Night, if you do not have a light on you (including weapon lights and darkvision) there is a +5 DC modifier
* During Night, if the target has a light on them, there is a -10 DC modifier
* For stealthed players only, there is a +5 DC if they are in the back arc
* +10 DC if you are in combat
* +5 DC if the target is standing still
* -5 DC if you are standing still
* Relative size modifiers (Tiny: +8, Small: +4, Medium: 0, Large: -4, Huge: -8)
* Favoured enemy bonuses

There might be some additional modifiers, however I can't recall any off the top of my head and without doing an in depth search through the code I probably won't find them all. Hopefully this answers any additional questions you folks had.

 

[rogueknight333]

Guys, question - does light affect stealth in NWN? ...

Light should indeed affect stealth just as the wiki describes, though determining conclusively that all those modifiers are working as intended would require far more extensive testing than I (or AFAIK anyone else) has done. I remember reading the bioware programmer's post you quote on the old Bioware forums back in the day, and one of the reasons he posted that in the first place was in response to a discussion there about exactly what factors affected stealth checks. Said discussion in turn took place because it had long become apparent to many experienced players that stealth checks involved more than a straight comparison of spot/listen skills vs hide/move silently skill, and they were trying to figure just what the relevant factors were.

All NWN areas are always considered to be either in "day" or "night." By default, indoor or underground areas are just considered to be in "night" at all times so presumably the "night" conditions for stealth would always apply there (assuming the module creator does not specifically set such areas to "day" or to cycle, as he could). Likewise, outdoor areas cycle between day and night by default, but if the module creator sets one to be always "day" presumably the "night" conditions for stealth would never apply there.

 

[Maculo]

I loaded up Swordflight again after a long break. I am trying to speed through act I on a paladin, but I forgot how fragile Zarala can be. I am not managing her positioning as well as I should. Consequently, she will turn a corner, run into melee with me to shoot her crossbow, and take an attack of opportunity to the face.

 

[Gargaune]

Light should indeed affect stealth just as the wiki describes, though determining conclusively that all those modifiers are working as intended would require far more extensive testing than I (or AFAIK anyone else) has done. I remember reading the bioware programmer's post you quote on the old Bioware forums back in the day, and one of the reasons he posted that in the first place was in response to a discussion there about exactly what factors affected stealth checks. Said discussion in turn took place because It had long become apparent to many experienced players that stealth checks involved more than a straight comparison of spot/listen skills vs hide/move silently skill, and they were trying to figure just what the relevant factors were.

All NWN areas are always considered to be either in "day" or "night." By default, indoor or underground areas are just considered to be in "night" at all times so presumably the "night" conditions for stealth would always apply there (assuming the module creator does not specifically set such areas to "day" or to cycle, as he could). Likewise, outdoor areas cycle between day and night by default, but if the module creator sets one to be always "day" presumably the "night" conditions for stealth would never apply there.

Thanks for the explanation! It's a pretty sophisticated system when you think about it, I always get a kick out of how much potential there is in the NWN's systems.

 

[Gargaune]

Ok, might be stretching the topic a bit, but fuck... Was skimming the Vault for tilesets and check out this awesome piece (one of several) a guy was making for the EE:

Someone else then did a backport of it to the DE and also included it in his megapack. Most of these are DE-standard visuals, but so many toys to play with... Like tell me this one wouldn't be right at home in Disciples 2:

I really wish the EE had been more successful in reigniting the community, bringing in some fresh meat. So many cool assets that would deserve their time in the sun.

 

[Snufkin]

Is there any way to move dialogue window into middle of screen or somewhere else? Looking up corner drives me nuts.

 

[Sordid MCA/Prosper Hybryd]

Is there any way to move dialogue window into middle of screen or somewhere else? Looking up corner drives me nuts.

There is.

Unzip this to %Username%\Documents\Neverwinter Nights\override

I did it for myself, for my resolution. It may not work for you. Then just delete the file pnl_dialog.mdl from the override folder.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

That's a great looking tile set. Perfect for a Ravenloft setting. The NWN toolset is so cool. One of the best things that happened to PC gaming.

 

[Maculo]

I am not sure if this bug is with base NWN or Swordflight specifically, but when I load/reload the game my Turn Undead stacks reset or increase. The consequence is that my paladin in Swordflight can pop Divine Might and Divine Protection without much need or thought to conserve. Not that I need those spells every fight, but still.

I slept on pure paladin in Swordflight, loving it.

 

[Gargaune]

I am not sure if this bug is with base NWN or Swordflight specifically, but when I load/reload the game my Turn Undead stacks reset or increase. The consequence is that my paladin in Swordflight can pop Divine Might and Divine Protection without much need or thought to conserve. Not that I need those spells every fight, but still.

Turns out neither, it's a default NWN bug dating back to the DE. I just confirmed it with my TotM Blackguard in the EE and my DoD Cleric in the DE. And there actually appear to be two bugs relating to the application of magical Charisma bonus to your current Turn Undead pool:

1) If you apply any bonus or malus to your Charisma modifier, whether it's gear or a potion or whatever, the UI won't refresh your Turn Undead pool until the next time you use it. So if you have 2 Turn Undead left and you unequip an item, taking your Cha modifier down 1 unit, after using your one of your "2" Turn Undead activations you'll be left with 0. This is rather minor, though I guess it could be annoying sometimes.

2) The game load is miscalculating your Turn Undead pool by adding back the extra Turns resulting from your additional points on top of your natural Charisma modifier. So if you have a base Charisma of 20 from a natural 15 plus 5 bonus from gear, giving you 5 Cha modifier and 8 Turn Undead uses, and you spend all but 1 and then reload, the game will bump you back up to 4 Turn Undead left (the 3 extra you get from the +5 to your 15 Cha). If you only spent 1 Turn Undead, then you get back to 8 because the bug can't take you past your max pool, this is why you thought it was either "increasing or resetting."

 

[KainenMorden]

I am not sure if this bug is with base NWN or Swordflight specifically, but when I load/reload the game my Turn Undead stacks reset or increase. The consequence is that my paladin in Swordflight can pop Divine Might and Divine Protection without much need or thought to conserve. Not that I need those spells every fight, but still.

Turns out neither, it's a default NWN bug dating back to the DE. I just confirmed it with my TotM Blackguard in the EE and my DoD Cleric in the DE. And there actually appear to be two bugs relating to the application of magical Charisma bonus to your current Turn Undead pool:

1) If you apply any bonus or malus to your Charisma modifier, whether it's gear or a potion or whatever, the UI won't refresh your Turn Undead pool until the next time you use it. So if you have 2 Turn Undead left and you unequip an item, taking your Cha modifier down 1 unit, after using your one of your "2" Turn Undead activations you'll be left with 0. This is rather minor, though I guess it could be annoying sometimes.

2) The game load is miscalculating your Turn Undead pool by adding back the extra Turns resulting from your additional points on top of your natural Charisma modifier. So if you have a base Charisma of 20 from a natural 15 plus 5 bonus from gear, giving you 5 Cha modifier and 8 Turn Undead uses, and you spend all but 1 and then reload, the game will bump you back up to 4 Turn Undead left (the 3 extra you get from the +5 to your 15 Cha). If you only spent 1 Turn Undead, then you get back to 8 because the bug can't take you past your max pool, this is why you thought it was either "increasing or resetting."

There's a bug regarding bonus spellslots for Cha casters going missing as well. Afaik, it has nothing to do with EE and has never been resolved.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I am not sure if this bug is with base NWN or Swordflight specifically, but when I load/reload the game my Turn Undead stacks reset or increase. The consequence is that my paladin in Swordflight can pop Divine Might and Divine Protection without much need or thought to conserve. Not that I need those spells every fight, but still.

Turns out neither, it's a default NWN bug dating back to the DE. I just confirmed it with my TotM Blackguard in the EE and my DoD Cleric in the DE. And there actually appear to be two bugs relating to the application of magical Charisma bonus to your current Turn Undead pool:

1) If you apply any bonus or malus to your Charisma modifier, whether it's gear or a potion or whatever, the UI won't refresh your Turn Undead pool until the next time you use it. So if you have 2 Turn Undead left and you unequip an item, taking your Cha modifier down 1 unit, after using your one of your "2" Turn Undead activations you'll be left with 0. This is rather minor, though I guess it could be annoying sometimes.

2) The game load is miscalculating your Turn Undead pool by adding back the extra Turns resulting from your additional points on top of your natural Charisma modifier. So if you have a base Charisma of 20 from a natural 15 plus 5 bonus from gear, giving you 5 Cha modifier and 8 Turn Undead uses, and you spend all but 1 and then reload, the game will bump you back up to 4 Turn Undead left (the 3 extra you get from the +5 to your 15 Cha). If you only spent 1 Turn Undead, then you get back to 8 because the bug can't take you past your max pool, this is why you thought it was either "increasing or resetting."

Oh I got a solution for it.

Spoiler

Roll a barbarian

 

[Gargaune]

Hey, ERYFKRAD, you linked Gunner's body mod a while back, do you - or does anyone else - know of a mod that touches up the vanilla heads? Not looking for anything fancy, just maybe something to make the original release heads look like the slightly higher-poly ones from HotU. I did come across this Tessellated Original Heads Models pack, but that's only got five heads.