New skyrim previews

[Clockwork Knight]

And your pic is completely irrelevant in this context.

>>talking about how Beth handles attributes
>>pic showing how Beth handles attributes

uh

okay

Spoiler

The pic is merely an example of how TES games are easy to break due to how you can give yourself godlike abilities by fiddling with the mechanics a little. If you pull a "Mercantile isn't an attribute, it's a skill, how is this relevant" on me, I'm going to personally murder your spergy, scaly ass

They also shouldn't be making games after MW. At least they would be remembered as "dudes making flawed gems" and wouldn't risk getting literally defaced with broken oblivious/rimjob DVDs if they ever meet a codexer in the street.

As you said - tough shit.

[...]

Currently "something beth just can't work with" encompasses pretty much entirety of computer games spectrum, besides, if you just can't work with something that is logical, rational and can be implemented relatively cleanly, then you certainly can't asspull something messy, convoluted and working around its own internal logic and expect it to work *AT ALL*.

It's like saying that if you find programming in C++ hard, you might have better luck trying Malbolge.

...okay? What does that have to do with the discussion? Yes, Bethesda sucks, we got the memo. Anything else?

Spoiler

I also don't have the faintest idea of what the fuck Malbolge is, but going by the context I'm gonna assume it's some programming language instead of that Spawn villain

 

[DraQ]

And your pic is completely irrelevant in this context.

>>talking about how Beth handles attributes
>>pic showing how Beth handles possible loopholes, skill formulae, interface side effects, spell cost and spell effect avilability

Fixed.

Unless you mean str required for being able to move while wearing full daedric there is nothing in the pic that references an attribute in any shape or form.

besides, if you just can't work with something that is logical, rational and can be implemented relatively cleanly, then you certainly can't asspull something messy, convoluted and working around its own internal logic and expect it to work *AT ALL*.

It's like saying that if you find programming in C++ hard, you might have better luck trying Malbolge.

...okay? What does that have to do with the discussion?

See bolded part.

System designed in clean and logical manner (like a tree-like structure with attributes forming primary branches, perks leaves and skills in between) requires much less skill to work with than convoluted mess cobbled together almost exclusively from workarounds and overrides (like all the stuff required to emulate functions of attributes using perks).

If a team doesn't have skill to produce good results with a unified, well designed, clear and transparent system, then there is no way whatsoever that they will succeed using some arcane clusterfuck instead.
Anyone hoping for that is clearly delusional.

Since Bethpizda's team is incompetent, mismanaged, but unlikely to be actually insane this means that there will be no efforts whatsoever to restore lost functionality using perks, and the reason for removal of attributes is solely to dumb shit down and appeal to the lowest common denominator.

This also means that oblivious retards incapable of finding Caius Cosades and having actual trouble following pizza slice around and heeding quest popups will now comprise the higher end of TES fanbase in terms of mental capabilities. I won't even attempt guessing what one would find at the lower end - slime molds? Nah, too smart.

Spoiler

I also don't have the faintest idea of what the fuck Malbolge is, but going by the context I'm gonna assume it's some programming language instead of that Spawn villain

Malbolge is a programming language devised for the sole purpose of being hard to write in.

By "hard" I mean "the most complex program ever written in it is '99 bottles of beer' and it had to be found using genetic algorithm".

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Fixed.

Unless you mean str required for being able to move while wearing full daedric there is nothing in the pic that references an attribute in any shape or form.

Spoiler

The pic is merely an example of how TES games are easy to break due to how you can give yourself godlike abilities by fiddling with the mechanics a little. If you pull a "Mercantile isn't an attribute, it's a skill, how is this relevant" on me, I'm going to personally murder your spergy, scaly ass

 

[Mastermind]

Replace barter with intelligence and buying shit with alchemy and you have morrowind in that pic.

 

[DraQ]

Fixed.

Unless you mean str required for being able to move while wearing full daedric there is nothing in the pic that references an attribute in any shape or form.

Spoiler

The pic is merely an example of how TES games are easy to break due to how you can give yourself godlike abilities by fiddling with the mechanics a little. If you pull a "Mercantile isn't an attribute, it's a skill, how is this relevant" on me, I'm going to personally murder your spergy, scaly ass

Mercantile is breakable for those sole reasons:
-formula is wonky
-actions like selling and buying happen in inventory time
-fortify skill spells have been neglectfully made available to the player including their low casting cost and narrow, focused effect, making any restoration specialist capable of temporarily becoming a master of any skill they want
-beth cannot into rooting out loopholes like ingredients that fortify int/luc so that player can have sufficient magicka to fortify anything over 9000.

Give me a single example of attribute based loophole, because other than the fact that you can max all of them out, and that end doesn't increase health retroactivelly they seem atypically solid for something made by bethesda. Stuff like drain intelligence glitch or drain/fortify bug are kind of stuff that could be fixed with a single line of code, even by Bethesda so they can probably be blamed on trying to beat NWN to release.

Also,

GTFO.

 

[Mastermind]

Give me a single example of attribute based loophole, because other than the fact that you can max all of them out, and that end doesn't increase health retroactivelly they seem atypically solid for something made by bethesda.

The alchemy loophole is dependent on Intelligence. If intelligence did not affect alchemy results there would be no loophole.

 

[DraQ]

Give me a single example of attribute based loophole, because other than the fact that you can max all of them out, and that end doesn't increase health retroactivelly they seem atypically solid for something made by bethesda.

The alchemy loophole is dependent on Intelligence. If intelligence did not affect alchemy results there would be no loophole.

It's normal and perfectly reasonable that skill effects are modified by attributes, although I wouldn't make the attribute here intelligence, and there are better ways of implementing the relationship - asymptotically approaching some value reflecting the most efficient possible usage of ingredients would fit much better here.

Still, the actual problem is availability of ingredients allowing positive feedback loop combined with lack of mechanics preventing excessive consumption of potions (like potentially lethal toxicity) - remove fortify luck effect from potions, replace fortify intelligence with fortify magicka and problem vanishes.

 

[Daemongar]

Yep. Streamlining mechanics in the interest of playability. They streamline the experience until it is just action fighting. I'll try not to read too much into this, but they are moving to less complex, not more complex. When they talk of streamlining, eliminating unessary items, they are taking away what makes the game unique. This is a bad move.

As earlier mentioned, they could have expanded stats role instead of eliminating them completely, you know, make quests dependent on them, improved their importance. All told, I think it was poorly thought out.

 

[Metro]

As earlier mentioned, they could have expanded stats role instead of eliminating them completely, you know, make quests dependent on them, improved their importance. All told, I think it was poorly thought out.

This is spot on. People arguing that the stats/abilities didn't play a big role in the previous games are missing the point. The better solution to that is design the game to make use of them rather than just cut them out altogether. With Skyrim they are basically admitting they are too incompetent to design a proper RPG so they're just going to make it a medieval FPS with light RPG elements. Of course that is pretty much where they were at with Oblivion so I guess it is foolish to have hoped otherwise. Instead they just make it more console friendly.

 

[DraQ]

Yep. Streamlining mechanics in the interest of playability. They streamline the experience until it is just action fighting.

To add insult to injury it's not like they have ever created decent action combat.

I'll try not to read too much into this, but they are moving to less complex, not more complex. When they talk of streamlining, eliminating unessary items, they are taking away what makes the game unique. This is a bad move.

As earlier mentioned, they could have expanded stats role instead of eliminating them completely, you know, make quests dependent on them, improved their importance. All told, I think it was poorly thought out.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Yep. Streamlining mechanics in the interest of playability. They streamline the experience until it is just action fighting.

To add insult to injury it's not like they have ever created decent action combat.

Which is why I think dedicating themselves to full action fighting would be a better idea. If the combat is barebones shit to begin with, it's not like we'd be losing much with streamlining, anyway ("Your strength went form 50 to 53, you hit a little harder now" vs. "You acquired the "Hit Harder" perk, you hit a little harder now").

 

[Mastermind]

If the perk system is more complex than the attribute system (and it is compared to oblivion where the attribute system was shit) then it's not less complex as a whole.

 

[DraQ]

Yep. Streamlining mechanics in the interest of playability. They streamline the experience until it is just action fighting.

To add insult to injury it's not like they have ever created decent action combat.

Which is why I think dedicating themselves to full action fighting would be a better idea.

I thought they shouldn't be doing stuff they can't do well.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

As earlier mentioned, they could have expanded stats role instead of eliminating them completely, you know, make quests dependent on them, improved their importance. All told, I think it was poorly thought out.

This is spot on. People arguing that the stats/abilities didn't play a big role in the previous games are missing the point. The better solution to that is design the game to make use of them rather than just cut them out altogether. With Skyrim they are basically admitting they are too incompetent to design a proper RPG so they're just going to make it a medieval FPS with light RPG elements. Of course that is pretty much where they were at with Oblivion so I guess it is foolish to have hoped otherwise. Instead they just make it more console friendly.

Yes, the best solution is that Bethesda dump their entire staff and hire only codexer-approved developers (cloning MCA multiple times in the process). Barring that, the choice is between shitty Oblivion combat where stats pretty much do nothing but is technically closer to an RPG or an action game that might have a chance of being bearable. If Bethesda makes the jump that Bioware did from NWN to ME in terms of combat then I could care less if it was less of an RPG and instead just a guy with a big sword fucking up dragons.

 

[DraQ]

Yes, the best solution is that Bethesda dump their entire staff and hire only codexer-approved developers (cloning MCA multiple times in the process). Barring that, the choice is between shitty Oblivion combat where stats pretty much do nothing but is technically closer to an RPG or an action game that might have a chance of being bearable.

Except Oblivion combat was already an attempt to make the combat more flashy and actiony.

Guess what?
It ended up worse than ever.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Yep. Streamlining mechanics in the interest of playability. They streamline the experience until it is just action fighting.

To add insult to injury it's not like they have ever created decent action combat.

Which is why I think dedicating themselves to full action fighting would be a better idea.

I thought they shouldn't be doing stuff they can't do well.

But they never did pure action fighting, it's always some unholy hybrid involving attributes because they keep pretending they don't want to go full action.

 

[desocupado]

Yep. Streamlining mechanics in the interest of playability. They streamline the experience until it is just action fighting.

To add insult to injury it's not like they have ever created decent action combat.

Which is why I think dedicating themselves to full action fighting would be a better idea.

I thought they shouldn't be doing stuff they can't do well.

But they never did pure action fighting, it's always some unholy hybrid involving attributes because they keep pretending they don't want to go full action.

I just wanted to show my support to one of the most reasonable guys on this site.

CK, you're absolutely right. I recommend you to stop paying attention to DraQ, he's a conceited pseudo-intelectual cretin who likes the smell of his own farts.

No matter what you say, and how much proof you get, you will never change his (stupid) opinions.

Don't get an ulcer.

 

[Stalin]

he's a conceited pseudo-intelectual cretin who likes the smell of his own farts.

No matter what you say, and how much proof you get, you will never change his (stupid) opinions.

you just described everyone on the KKKodex with that sweeping statement dear

 

[Johannes]

Then again I've never heard anyone like specifically the combat in any TES game. If they want to concentrate their strength, just do as much hiking grounds and pointless quests as possible, preferably while seeing some (doesn't matter what really) numbers go up. Just tons and tons of stuff to larp in, and the TES fans will love it. Combat doesn't have to be interesting in itself, it's just a means to feel awesome about how your PC is such a mystic mythic dragonborn.

 

[Nael]

I never played Oblivion. How was it?

*twitches*

 

[Clockwork Knight]

I recommend you to stop paying attention to DraQ

i canot

for the batle rages onn. and i am a wariori

 

[DraQ]

But they never did pure action fighting, it's always some unholy hybrid involving attributes because they keep pretending they don't want to go full action.

And here it will still be some unholy hybrid involving skills and perks. With no to-hit rolls determining misses and bethesda's recent* lack of creativity it means that retarded damage scaler (I'm Ingmar The Barbarian, I look like pincushion, but I feel fine, the guy who hit me twenty times from half a mile away was a lousy marksman) will likely make a come back.

Besides, full action or not, they definitely moved towards more action-y, "immersive" combat between Morrowind and Oblivious. It didn't make combat any better, it made it worse and less immersive, as it's easier to ignore the game NOT SHOWING that you've missed or your opponent dodged, than to ignore game CLEARLY SHOWING that you've just brained a guy with a huge axe or put twenty arrows through his chest, but somehow missed a vital organ. It was also mechanically simpler which is jarring when combined with more detailed presentation.
Skills are still in and their approach to perks was abysmal in oblivious, so I don't hold my breath here.

*) >5 years.

Admittedly it did have upsides - namely armorer and acrobatics skills were implemented better, you could poison weapons and schedules, even half-assed ones, beat no schedules.

Master trainer quests were also a nice touch.

Other than that?
AVOID.
AVOID LIKE A FORGOTTEN BAG WITH HOSPITAL WASTE CONTAINING EXCISED BUBONIC ULCERS GENEROUSLY SPRINKLED WITH EBOLA.

0/10

Didn't rage even a little bit.

Try harder.

 

[desocupado]

0/10

Didn't rage even a little bit.

Try harder.

That was not supposed to make you rage. You're not that important.

 

[dextermorgan]

Admittedly it did have upsides - namely armorer and acrobatics skills were implemented better, you could poison weapons and schedules, even half-assed ones, beat no schedules.

I tired to roleplay assassin alchemist. I collected a bunch of ingredients, cooked up a ton of potions and leveled up a few times in the process. Went out and had my ass handed to me by some level-uspcaled monster. No problem, I thought, I'll just use this uber poison I made to poison the fucker dead. Several reloads and experiments with poisons/attribute enhancing potions later it became clear that my superior skill in alchemy was no match for level scaling.

At which point I uninstalled the game and never played again.

 

[DraQ]

Admittedly it did have upsides - namely armorer and acrobatics skills were implemented better, you could poison weapons and schedules, even half-assed ones, beat no schedules.

I tired to roleplay assassin alchemist. I collected a bunch of ingredients, cooked up a ton of potions and leveled up a few times in the process. Went out and had my ass handed to me by some level-uspcaled monster. No problem, I thought, I'll just use this uber poison I made to poison the fucker dead. Several reloads and experiments with poisons/attribute enhancing potions later it became clear that my superior skill in alchemy was no match for level scaling.

At which point I uninstalled the game and never played again.

This was covered by "other than that" part of my post.

The game is terribad.