New skyrim previews

[dextermorgan]

After a gigantic fuckup that was Oblivion and slightly less gigantic fuckup that was Failout people apparently still have hopes that Bethesda will deliver a game worth spending time on?

 

[moraes]

It seems evident that the removal of attributes weights the system towards a generalist approach to character development.

Not quite. If these perks are unlocked depending on how many related perks the character already has (You can only have great combat perks if you have all the basic combat perks, for example), it would encourage specializing.

I agree, but iff the skill system and the perk system are in a mutual restrictive relation: by this I mean a relation such that raising one skill beyond a certain limit can only be accomplished by possesion of one or more perks in the general area of the skill (e.g. X must have 4 or more 'magical' perks before being able to raise his Destruction skill of 50) and, likewise, making progress in perk trees requires some level of relevant skill progression.

Failing this condition, the consequence is a schizoid combination of a generalist skill system with a restrictive perk system (e.g. character specialized in combat perks but master of all magic skills) that still can be fun™, but seems a little inconsistent.

 

[Pablosdog]

Honestly, while I prefer my rpgs to have stats, this game isn`t a rpg. therefore normal rules do not apply to it. They may claim it is one, but to me it`s just a generic action-adventure title with some pretty graphics. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Reptilian Shapeshifter]

Honestly, while I prefer my rpgs to have stats, this game isn`t a rpg. therefore normal rules do not apply to it. They may claim it is one, but to me it`s just a generic action-adventure title hiking simulator with some pretty graphics scenery and otherwise mediocre graphics. Nothing more, nothing less.

This with some corrections.

 

[BlitzKitchen]

 

[Overweight Manatee]

The stats have done pretty much nothing since Daggerfall. All that mattered was Strength to let you carry stuff and Intelligence to give you more mana. Its not like the game had intelligence-based dialog options or anything, playing an int 10 retard had no difference compared to an int 150 genius other than you couldn't use spells as much.

 

[waywardOne]

They thought that attributes in Oblivion sucked. So they remove that and add perks instead. I don't see what's the problem really.

this is the problem and it applies to DA2 as well: you don't just scrap an entire game mechanic because it's not perfect; you examine why it's suboptimal and improve upon it at the next iteration, thereby ADVANCING THE FUCKING MECHANICS.

we should have

Game 1, Mechanic A: expressions 1-3 work ideally, expressions 4 and 5 suck, expressions 7-9 need refining

Game 2, Mechanic A: expression 1-3 remain unchanged, expressions 4 and 5 eliminated, expressions 7-9 improved, expressions 10-13 added as new features

instead what we have is

Game 1, Mechanic A: expressions 1-3 work ideally, expressions 4 and 5 suck, expressions 7-9 need refining

Game 2, Mechanic B: expression 1 works ideally, expressions 2-4 suck, expressions 5-9 need refining


there's no progressive evolution of gameplay. they fuck up step 2 continuously and instead of re-examining step 2, they just chuck it all and keep going back to step 1.

 

[Archibald]

this is the problem and it applies to DA2 as well: you don't just scrap an entire game mechanic because it's not perfect

Of course you don`t do that. I, nor anyone else imo, don`t think that Bethesda are best developers ever nor that they are competant in the first place, well Mastermid might think that but who cares about him. Therefore it gets fucking old to get same stat system which still is stupid and still doesn`t work every time they release new TES game.

Argument here isn`t that attributes should be removed from rpgs in general or that perk system is best thing ever. We here have an option, either we get same old shit that still doesn`t work or new mechanics which we haven`t really played with before. Excuse me but i prefer second option. If you prefer attributes which have never worked nor ever will in TES game then more power to you.

 

[Crooked Bee]

i know these woods well. we go here to die out of loneliness. no friends ever. the unabomber was lucky, for he enjoyed nature. if i only had that, i might be able to live with myself.

that screenshot is dangerous. i feel so alone. when you break out of jail. these are the places you end up.
trees. a log from the shows little bear. look at the positioning of thatl og. it is from little bear and other cartoons. is a duck stuck in that log?

the mountains are ok, but i am so alone. it has been too long. to leave me in a place like that. it is inhumane. what is that. it isn't real. i admit that there are places on earth, with trees that also don't feel quite real.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

They thought that attributes in Oblivion sucked. So they remove that and add perks instead. I don't see what's the problem really.

this is the problem and it applies to DA2 as well: you don't just scrap an entire game mechanic because it's not perfect; you examine why it's suboptimal and improve upon it at the next iteration, thereby ADVANCING THE FUCKING MECHANICS.

Ideally, yes. But in practice, I just care about finding something that works so the game is playable. There's only so many times you can refine something before it turns to dust. Shit dust. I'll take a new mechanic that will most likely need refining over an old mechanic they tried to work with several times and came up with refined shit. If the new mechanic turns out to be shit, at least it was a new flavor of shit, instead of the same shit we've been eating for the last few years.

Sometimes you have to admit that you just can't bake a decent cake, and you should think about making something else for the party.

 

[Gord]

It's funny because it's true.

 

[Commissar Draco]

If they'll mutate TES farther away from being RPG the Dagerfall and Morrowind were I'm fine with that maybe that way this game won't be in uncanny valley like Oblibion and F3 were. Especialy the latter was awfull as Bethpizda realy tried (and failed Of Course) to make RPG improvments. Now since I buried and mourned the TES I can enjoy it as good for what it is mountain hiking simulator with dragons.

It's realy no worth anymore, just close your mind and think of Codexia.

 

[waywardOne]

Sometimes you have to admit that you just can't bake a decent cake, and you should think about making something else for the party.

true enough, but to use your analogy, it's not just that they can't bake a cake, they can't bake anything worth a shit and the closest thing to edible they can make is cake. the best they could hope for by switching to a baguette or cookie is likely still worse than the cake.

 

[Gord]

Sometimes you have to admit that you just can't bake a decent cake, and you should think about making something else for the party.

true enough, but to use your analogy, it's not just that they can't bake a cake, they can't bake anything worth a shit and the closest thing to edible they can make is cake. the best they could hope for by switching to a baguette or cookie is likely still worse than the cake.

My butthurt sense is tingling...

No really, if you think they are that bad, why do you even bother? Get on with your life, find another game to play.

 

[Black]

My butthurt sense is tingling...

No really, if you think they are that bad, why do you even bother? Get on with your life, find another game to play.

You heard the 2011 man, only positive comments allowed.
Shouldn't you be on beth and bio forums? They have policies you may like.

 

[Archibald]

Sometimes you have to admit that you just can't bake a decent cake, and you should think about making something else for the party.

true enough, but to use your analogy, it's not just that they can't bake a cake, they can't bake anything worth a shit and the closest thing to edible they can make is cake. the best they could hope for by switching to a baguette or cookie is likely still worse than the cake.

When your cake is shit you aren`t risking much here.

 

[Gord]

You heard the 2011 man, only positive comments allowed.

Obviously even trace amounts of intelligence are too much to ask.

 

[Mastermind]

If they'll mutate TES farther away from being RPG the Dagerfall and Morrowind were I'm fine with that maybe that way this game won't be in uncanny valley like Oblibion and F3 were. Especialy the latter was awfull as Bethpizda realy tried (and failed Of Course) to make RPG improvments. Now since I buried and mourned the TES I can enjoy it as good for what it is mountain hiking simulator with dragons.

It's realy no worth anymore, just close your mind and think of Codexia.

Daggerfall isn't an RPG.

 

[Mastermind]

The stats have done pretty much nothing since Daggerfall. All that mattered was Strength to let you carry stuff and Intelligence to give you more mana. Its not like the game had intelligence-based dialog options or anything, playing an int 10 retard had no difference compared to an int 150 genius other than you couldn't use spells as much.

Intelligence let you make absurdly powerful potions in morrowind.

 

[Luzur]

well Daggerfall is more RPG then Oblivion was.

or Skyrim will be.

 

[DraQ]

Argument here isn`t that attributes should be removed from rpgs in general or that perk system is best thing ever. We here have an option, either we get same old shit that still doesn`t work or new mechanics which we haven`t really played with before. Excuse me but i prefer second option. If you prefer attributes which have never worked nor ever will in TES game then more power to you.

Hai guise - I've had nine kids so far, all of them retarded. My tenth babby will be fed paint chip suspension instead of milk and deprived of sensory input. I'm sure he will grow up so much better cuz my approach is so novel.

And the "Attributes > Skills > Perks etc." setup in RPGs has become an extremely dogmatic cope-out either way.

So is this whole 3D shtick in FPS games. It's just fucking dogmatic and tired - why not 1D game? or 5D? I know that πD FPS would be so fucking rad I'd jizz all over myself, but alas - the dogmatic fat fucks are depriving me of the experience prefering to play it safe. Bastards, all of them!

Spoiler

Brotip:

Sometimes rigid adherence to something is just clinging dogmatically to some backward shit and defying it makes you progressive and revolutionary, but it doesn't mean that in other cases it can't be just common sense and going against the grain just makes you a pretentious moron that tries too hard - when you're describing a character in terms of capabilities it's just obvious that you first outline the character in terms of general scores like strength, speed or intelligence, then progress through scales broadly describing proficiency at various activities, ending with small individualized details and touches describing stuff not really translateable to linear scales - tree style.

I care little for your theories on which elements a tr00 arpeegee should contain. Beth was never good at handling attributes to begin with, so if exchanging them for perks could generate better results, I don't mind it.

I see... A Red Herring:

-Interface problem (game pauses when using menus like inventory and dialogue resulting in stupidly short durations being useful for some purposes).

-Effect availability problem (fortify skill spells were not available for purchase in MW, but they are easy to come by in expansions for obscure and likely retarded reasons).

-Skill effect formula problem (duh.).

-Possible room for improvement like minimum buff duration or some inventory actions actually taking some minimum time.

How is any of those relevant to our little discussion about merits of attributes?
Yes, Hitler was bad AND he had legs - so?
Mandatory amputations at birth to ensure everyone being nice?

They thought that attributes in Oblivion sucked. So they remove that and add perks instead. I don't see what's the problem really.

The problem is Bethpizda's* way of breaking shit.

It goes like this:
1. Take a workable if somewhat flawed solution.
2. Turn it into utter crap using your staggering incompetence at fixing the flaws.
3. Throw now "broken" and "pointless" feature out.
4. Repeat 1-3 for all desirable features you can lay your hands on.
5. ????**
6. Suck-cess.

*)

**) It's unknown what "????" exactly means, but evidence suggests that it largely consists of pete and todd making derp faces to the press.

this is the problem and it applies to DA2 as well: you don't just scrap an entire game mechanic because it's not perfect; you examine why it's suboptimal and improve upon it at the next iteration, thereby ADVANCING THE FUCKING MECHANICS.

Ideally, yes. But in practice, I just care about finding something that works so the game is playable. There's only so many times you can refine something before it turns to dust. Shit dust. I'll take a new mechanic that will most likely need refining over an old mechanic they tried to work with several times and came up with refined shit. If the new mechanic turns out to be shit, at least it was a new flavor of shit, instead of the same shit we've been eating for the last few years.

Sometimes you have to admit that you just can't bake a decent cake, and you should think about making something else for the party.

Cockwork Knight cannot into evolution. As long as you can determine what worked and what didn't post factum you have to be dumber than fucking random choice if you can't improve your shit.

That's right - you pretty much have to do worse than you would if you just shat on the floor and have a hobo interpret it like an ink blot test and make a decision based on it.

The stats have done pretty much nothing since Daggerfall. All that mattered was Strength to let you carry stuff and Intelligence to give you more mana.

So try, for example, fighting with 0-30 agility in Morrowind - even if you do hit, you will also be a very easy target and with agility this low, you will spend most of the time with your face in the dirt as virtually every hit will knock you down.

You have also never seen a speed 100 character in DF cutting shit up, otherwise your own dick would have risen against you and gouged your eyes out to avoid getting ever associated with falsehoods this unmanly.

Its not like the game had intelligence-based dialog options or anything, playing an int 10 retard had no difference compared to an int 150 genius other than you couldn't use spells as much.

There are stat-checks in dialogues (usually speechcraft, some int) and other interactions (there are some strength checks in Tribunal, though they are mostly overriden through potion drops) leading to different outcomes in Morrowind. They are by no means common, but the game does use them.

All attributes are extremely useful provided you also apply the right playstyle.

 

[Black]

Bethpizda's

Whoa, dude.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

The stats have done pretty much nothing since Daggerfall. All that mattered was Strength to let you carry stuff and Intelligence to give you more mana.

So try, for example, fighting with 0-30 agility in Morrowind - even if you do hit, you will also be a very easy target and with agility this low, you will spend most of the time with your face in the dirt as virtually every hit will knock you down.

Weapon proficiency vastly affected this more than agility. A 100 Agility character only has a 25% greater chance to hit than a 0 agility character. Thats pretty pathetic considering that 100 agility is the suppose to be the godlike level (and I don't consider >100 stats, because once you start adding buffs balance is fucked when you have 1k in every stat), and 0 is someone who should literally not be able to move. Meanwhile, going from 0 to 100 in a weapon skill improves your ability by 125%. Skills are much more important than attributes aside from the fact that attributes present a glass ceiling to your skills

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Combat

You have also never seen a speed 100 character in DF cutting shit up, otherwise your own dick would have risen against you and gouged your eyes out to avoid getting ever associated with falsehoods this unmanly.

The stats have done pretty much nothing since Daggerfall.

Yes, Daggerfall made stats important. That ship sailed 15 years ago.

Its not like the game had intelligence-based dialog options or anything, playing an int 10 retard had no difference compared to an int 150 genius other than you couldn't use spells as much.

There are stat-checks in dialogues (usually speechcraft, some int) and other interactions (there are some strength checks in Tribunal, though they are mostly overriden through potion drops) leading to different outcomes in Morrowind. They are by no means common, but the game does use them.

Can't say I remember any other than the Tribunal check. Care to point them out? Either I missed them in some corner of the world I didn't go to or they were stupidly low like the guild entrance requirements.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

How is any of those relevant to our little discussion about merits of attributes?
Yes, Hitler was bad AND he had legs - so?
Mandatory amputations at birth to ensure everyone being nice?

The discussion isn't only about the merits of attributes, but also how apparently Beth is substituting them for perks. Here's my opinion on it:

Beth was never good at handling attributes to begin with, so if exchanging them for perks could generate better results, I don't mind it.

As I said, I don't have a "what to fix so TES becomes a true RPG" list. Beth shouldn't be cutting attributes? Well, tough shit, looks like they are doing that. I think talking about that is more constructive than telling each other about how having attributes in a game totally rocks.

Cockwork Knight cannot into evolution. As long as you can determine what worked and what didn't post factum you have to be dumber than fucking random choice if you can't improve your shit.

That's right - you pretty much have to do worse than you would if you just shat on the floor and have a hobo interpret it like an ink blot test and make a decision based on it.

The point being that yes, that's exactly what I think Beth would do if they insisted on attributes. Which is why I think changing how they do things could be a good idea. I don't really care if they should be "evolving the system", "determining what worked and what didn't" or whatever, wanking about development leads me nowhere. I just want something playable, and to me it seems Beth giving up on something they just can't work with could be a way to achieve that.

If you disagree, tell me why. No need to tell me that Beth should be able to learn from previous mistakes, Colonel Obvious - I know that, I just don't expect that to happen anytime soon.

 

[DraQ]

The stats have done pretty much nothing since Daggerfall. All that mattered was Strength to let you carry stuff and Intelligence to give you more mana.

So try, for example, fighting with 0-30 agility in Morrowind - even if you do hit, you will also be a very easy target and with agility this low, you will spend most of the time with your face in the dirt as virtually every hit will knock you down.

Weapon proficiency vastly affected this more than agility. A 100 Agility character only has a 25% greater chance to hit than a 0 agility character.

Indeed, but you can only hit if you can attack, and you can't attack when you're lying flat on the ground while the enemy tries to extract your kidneys. With low agility scores almost every hit will be a knockdown (not KO, mind you - that depends on fatigue) and knocked down combatants pose no threat and are ridiculously easy to finish off before they can get up again (especially when you keep knocking them down every time they do try to get up). Low agility also gives enemy to-hit bonus, ensuring that more attacks will hit home, each with considerable chance to down you.

Skills are much more important than attributes aside from the fact that attributes present a glass ceiling to your skills

Attributes do augment skills, but they are not meant to replace them. Attributes are more general in terms of influence, and they have useful effects skills do not have - agility controls dodging and ability to avoid staggering and knockdown (among other things), for instance, willpower can make you highly resistant to paralysis and silence, and so on.

The stats have done pretty much nothing since Daggerfall.

Since VS since and including is so fucking unprecise.
:

Can't say I remember any other than the Tribunal check. Care to point them out? Either I missed them in some corner of the world I didn't go to or they were stupidly low like the guild entrance requirements.

I can remember some off the top of my head - there are speechcraft checks in MQ in Urshilaku Camp, Erabenimsun Camp and Ald Daedroth depending on your choices although the ones in Ald Daedroth and Erabeniumsun Camp are overshadowed by persuasion (which is just too easy and too powerful in MW), there is int check in misc quest with escaped slave in Suran (two in fact, depending on your race), and I also remember at least one flavour int check - in Ald Daedroth when a scamp refuses to give you booze claiming that you look like you've had too much, then wondering if you don't look like that all the time if your int is low.

Not much, but the checks work and mechanics is there - you could easily make PS:T style check-fest using just MW CS and assets. Working and potentially interesting mechanics should be refined and expanded upon, not discarded.

How is any of those relevant to our little discussion about merits of attributes?
Yes, Hitler was bad AND he had legs - so?
Mandatory amputations at birth to ensure everyone being nice?

The discussion isn't only about the merits of attributes, but also how apparently Beth is substituting them for perks. Here's my opinion on it:

Beth was never good at handling attributes to begin with, so if exchanging them for perks could generate better results, I don't mind it.

And your pic is completely irrelevant in this context.

As I said, I don't have a "what to fix so TES becomes a true RPG" list. Beth shouldn't be cutting attributes? Well, tough shit, looks like they are doing that.

They also shouldn't be making games after MW. At least they would be remembered as "dudes making flawed gems" and wouldn't risk getting literally defaced with broken oblivious/rimjob DVDs if they ever meet a codexer in the street.

As you said - tough shit.

I just want something playable, and to me it seems Beth giving up on something they just can't work with could be a way to achieve that.

Currently "something beth just can't work with" encompasses pretty much entirety of computer games spectrum, besides, if you just can't work with something that is logical, rational and can be implemented relatively cleanly, then you certainly can't asspull something messy, convoluted and working around its own internal logic and expect it to work *AT ALL*.

It's like saying that if you find programming in C++ hard, you might have better luck trying Malbolge.

Ah, one more thing:

If anything, TES games suffered from attributes being too fluid and thus not significant enough, removal of attributes altogether exacerbated the problem instead of fixing it - instead of limiting/removing the possibility of semi-retarded barbarian becoming a genius, they cut out the notions of "semi-retarded" and "genius" altogether. There is no nimbleness, nor clumsiness, intelligence nor dumbness, strength nor weakness in Skyrim anymore.

You said it yourself here damn well, i don`t know why are you even arguing. All TES games had fluid and rather pointless attributes.

They are only pointless in long run - about 3x the level at which you will normally retire your character. Attributes themselves have always worked pretty damn fine, it's just that Bethesda (and later Bethpizda) cannot into bounding character's growth based on build.

Their whole system of skills being trainable by their use suggests attribute free gameplay.

Lolno.

There are plenty of ways skills can work with train by use. You can make attributes limit skill eficiency or growth in various ways, you can make attributes static, you can (and fucking should) make train by use depend on difficulty of the task - there is plenty of stuff to work with here.

I`m not saying that perks should be mandatory instead of attributes

No, they should be mandatory besides them, especially if you can't catch them all, as they provide one way to make endgame builds different. Of course, that's assuming Bethpizda can make their perks any interesting - after "raise respective skill to 100 to unlock stabbing with daggers/swords/maces/axes/spoons" I'm just not holding my breath.

it can`t be much worse.

Wait and be amazed.