No game brought more decline than WoW. Change my mind!!

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

It is much deeper than Street Fighter

Jesus Christ, no.

 

[anvi]

I just did some tougher fights nearer the end of CH3, it is getting more intense. It is still a bit easy and a bit simple but it is getting better and I think by the end it will be the bestest. The John Cleese cameo was fun.

 

[Absinthe]

Simple. Warlocks are supposed to be a class who uses "Fel Magic" and Fel energy literally corrupted an entire race(high elves to blood elves). They suffer no consequences of using this type of magic. Hellfire warlocks on 3.5e took a point of CON damage when channeling the hellfire. And Kineticists on kingmaker has the burn mechanic(and note that they channel elemental energies). Channeling "Fel" energy on wow has ZERO consequences in gameplay and in lore, potential to corrupt an entire race.

In classic wow, you still have the "everyone has the same base attributes BS" but at least had trainers to train you and to have a succubus pet, you need to "tame" in a long quest. This was removed, and now, just by killing a bunch of mobs, he somehow gets a demoniac pet and the knowledge needed.

Dude, that is not the fucking problem with the gameplay vs storyworld conflict. The problem is sooner that everyone is basically playing shitty singleplayer campaigns in an endlessly respawning world where everyone gets to be the special world-saving hero and after you another 100 players will be the one to save the world from the same threat too. That you have tons of classes running around tossing resurrect spells 24-7 but the moment an NPC dies in one of those cutscenes or shit it's totally a final death with no resurrecting him (unless you count the respawn that happens when the next person does the same quest). With the Warlock class you also have the problem that (alliance-side especially) Warlocks tend to be underground networks who are supposed to hide that they're Warlocks but you know that that's all flavor shit and running around summoning infernals in the middle of the Ironforge auctionhouse or wherever won't see your character get into trouble at all. In general there is almost no reactivity towards your class outside of class-specific quests, class-specific quest rewards, and people going "Hello there [classname]." and if they're feeling fancy the NPC might even have a sentence or two about your class before you're treated to the exact same shit as everyone else. Warlocks and Paladins are treated the exact same by the Argent Dawn, for instance. At the end of the day you're playing a generic adventurer-hero-savior archetype and everything else is window dressing and everyone gets to be the same adventurer-hero-savior you are as nothing anyone does sticks with the exception of very rare world quests like the AQ gates. So there are a lot of ways gameplay conveniences fuck with the storyworld you are supposed to buy into.

 

[Cryomancer]

Simple. Warlocks are supposed to be a class who uses "Fel Magic" and Fel energy literally corrupted an entire race(high elves to blood elves). They suffer no consequences of using this type of magic. Hellfire warlocks on 3.5e took a point of CON damage when channeling the hellfire. And Kineticists on kingmaker has the burn mechanic(and note that they channel elemental energies). Channeling "Fel" energy on wow has ZERO consequences in gameplay and in lore, potential to corrupt an entire race.

In classic wow, you still have the "everyone has the same base attributes BS" but at least had trainers to train you and to have a succubus pet, you need to "tame" in a long quest. This was removed, and now, just by killing a bunch of mobs, he somehow gets a demoniac pet and the knowledge needed.

Dude, that is not the fucking problem with the gameplay vs storyworld conflict. The problem is sooner that everyone is basically playing shitty singleplayer campaigns in an endlessly respawning world where everyone gets to be the special world-saving hero and after you another 100 players will be the one to save the world from the same threat too. That you have tons of classes running around tossing resurrect spells 24-7 but the moment an NPC dies in one of those cutscenes or shit it's totally a final death with no resurrecting him (unless you count the respawn that happens when the next person does the same quest). With the Warlock class you also have the problem that (alliance-side especially) Warlocks tend to be underground networks who are supposed to hide that they're Warlocks but you know that that's all flavor shit and running around summoning infernals in the middle of the Ironforge auctionhouse or wherever won't see your character get into trouble at all. In general there is almost no reactivity towards your class outside of class-specific quests, class-specific quest rewards, and people going "Hello there [classname]." and if they're feeling fancy the NPC might even have a sentence or two about your class before you're treated to the exact same shit as everyone else. Warlocks and Paladins are treated the exact same by the Argent Dawn, for instance. At the end of the day you're playing a generic adventurer-hero-savior archetype and everything else is window dressing and everyone gets to be the same adventurer-hero-savior you are as nothing anyone does sticks with the exception of very rare world quests like the AQ gates. So there are a lot of ways gameplay conveniences fuck with the storyworld you are supposed to buy into.

Amazing post. But a "ecology" mechanic which would be an alternative to the "respawn" but look what happened to Ultima Online ecology when they did it



This is why IMO sandbox >>>> themepark.

 

[anvi]

I remember that but it is easily fixed. The same thing happened in EQ sometimes, like Necromancers would need bone chips to cast their pet spells, so they would sometimes slaughter all the weak skeletons in a newbie area and kill everything. Sometimes they would get carried away and killed the guards and the merchants and everyone. So when a newbie comes along, there is just an ocean of corpses everywhere. But 30 minutes later everything respawns so it wasn't that big of a deal, and there were much better places for bone chips which people figured out eventually. But yeah games like that are far more interesting. There was a game called Darkfall which on paper was one of the most amazing games ever designed... But in reality, not so much.

But that had ideas like roaming packs of wolves might kill everyone in a village and then some weak goblins find the empty village and claim it as their own. Etc. But making ideas like this into a reality is hard, and they proved it.

 

[Cryomancer]

But that had ideas like roaming packs of wolves might kill everyone in a village and then some weak goblins find the empty village and claim it as their own. Etc. But making ideas like this into a reality is hard, and they proved it.

Mount & Blade acomplished a little of it but is a no magical setting, so no Goblins and similar creatures. Prices fluctuate by supply and demand laws, most NPC's relationships and merchants AI are well made, NPC's declare war on each other, marry, trade, plunder...

 

[Maxwell's Demon]

Amazing post. But a "ecology" mechanic which would be an alternative to the "respawn" but look what happened to Ultima Online ecology when they did it



This is why IMO sandbox >>>> themepark.

There's an easy solution to this problem though that's already been implemented in other games. Have fresh blood attract predators to eat the corpses after a delay that are strong enough to be a serious challenge to players individually. If the players stick around to kill some of the predators or commit a furry genocide, the blood from these new corpses attract even more predators, and in greater numbers. This creates a negative feedback loop that teaches players to only take what they need and move on, or else they'll get swarmed in a feeding frenzy. Incidentally this is how the crime system works in many games like Skyrim and Grand Theft Auto.

 

[JarlFrank]

Counterpoint

>hooves instead of feet

pass

 

[anvi]

But that had ideas like roaming packs of wolves might kill everyone in a village and then some weak goblins find the empty village and claim it as their own. Etc. But making ideas like this into a reality is hard, and they proved it.

Mount & Blade acomplished a little of it but is a no magical setting, so no Goblins and similar creatures. Prices fluctuate by supply and demand laws, most NPC's relationships and merchants AI are well made, NPC's declare war on each other, marry, trade, plunder...

We would have amazing games if people weren't such plebs :/

 

[almondblight]

When Rust came out some years ago it often had the feeling of a living world populated by players. You'd wander through ruins of player buildings and then randomly come across some player created toll gate across a major road, or find a heavily fortified tower created by powerful players with the surrounding countryside populated by dozens of unequipped players in loincloths toiling away to harvest resources for them. You'd crawl through the grass at night, stopping and playing dead each time you heard a gunshot, and then turn a corner and find a player made mansion where people were partying it up and would invite you to join them.

Haven't played in years, and I get the impression that the player base have moved more towards the battle royale aspect of the game. But the early days gave a decent sense of what a player made world could be like.