Game News Not-Ultima Online 2: Shroud of the Avatar Kickstarter is Live

[Mastermind]

Or he could just go into space again and stay there; in the long run, that's probably the better investment.

Fixed.

To be fair, Garriott agreed when I asked if he thought some developers, such as BioWare, had been doing good work recently.

 

[RK47]

“If you’re not a good artist and not a good programmer, but you still like games, you become a designer.”​

​

​

“I think there’s really very few great game designers,” he continued. “I think Chris Roberts is one of them, Will Wright’s another, Peter Molyneux is another. They clearly exist, but on the whole, I think that the design talent in our industry is dramatically lower than we need, as an industry. It’s a very hard skill to learn.”

 

[Western]

This Ultima kickstarter has been gold.

 

[FrancoTAU]

I hate this kickstarter, but I think he has a point about game designers in general. Most of them do suck. Isn't that what we bitch about on this site? That most games past the mid 90s suck a dick because the rise of people making them moving from programmers/artists to designers/corporate suits?

 

[Whisky]

“If you’re not a good artist and not a good programmer, but you still like games, you become a designer.”​

​

​

“I think there’s really very few great game designers,” he continued. “I think Chris Roberts is one of them, Will Wright’s another, Peter Molyneux is another. They clearly exist, but on the whole, I think that the design talent in our industry is dramatically lower than we need, as an industry. It’s a very hard skill to learn.”

Molyneux...dear god.

Oddly enough, Will Wright is pretty similar to Garriot. Used to be major, but is now completely irrelevent and out of touch.

 

[Lancehead]

I hate this kickstarter, but I think he has a point about game designers in general. Most of them do suck. Isn't that what we bitch about on this site? That most games past the mid 90s suck a dick because the rise of people making them moving from programmers/artists to designers/corporate suits?

He'd have a point if he was a neutral outsider or a great designer (debatable) himself. As it is, he sounds pretentious as hell while making a generic statement.

 

[FrancoTAU]

He's washed up for sure, but I think he easily qualified as a good designer in the past. And he's always been an egoistical ass, so I guess that part doesn't bother me. Regardless, truth is truth no matter who is saying it.

 

[Stabwound]

“But other than a few exceptions, like Chris Roberts, I’ve met virtually no one in our industry who I think is close to as good a game designer as I am. I’m not saying that because I think I’m so brilliant. What I’m saying is, I think most game designers really just suck, and I think there’s a reason why.”

“I think there’s really very few great game designers,” he continued. “I think Chris Roberts is one of them, Will Wright’s another, Peter Molyneux is another. They clearly exist, but on the whole, I think that the design talent in our industry is dramatically lower than we need, as an industry. It’s a very hard skill to learn.”

Wow, strong words. Modern game designers do mostly suck, but where are Garriott's great achievements since Ultima Online? Tabula Rasa was nothing short of a failure. Everyone he listed, including himself, haven't done anything good since the late 90s, but he's talking like they are.

I have no doubt that he could do something amazing again, but it sure doesn't look like he will. I find Shroud of the Avatar to be disingenuous. It doesn't feel like it's something he's passionate about; it's just a business opportunity.

I find RG to be an interesting guy, as eccentric and self-congratulating as he is. I'm more frustrated by this project than anything else. He has way more potential than what we've seen of this game so far. Who knows, maybe it will end up a masterpiece, but I doubt it.

 

[Jaesun]

I hate this kickstarter, but I think he has a point about game designers in general. Most of them do suck. Isn't that what we bitch about on this site? That most games past the mid 90s suck a dick because the rise of people making them moving from programmers/artists to designers/corporate suits?

He is 100% correct in this assessment from the shit fucking shovelware AAA Publishers shit out now.

But that is not saying much.

 

[FrancoTAU]

I think the ironic part is as the "great" designers moved further and further away from their core skills and moved more into designer/producer roles, they actually became worse at designing.

 

[Excommunicator]

I’ve met virtually no one…who I think is close to as good a game designer as I am.
I think most game designers really just suck
And every designer that I work with…I think, frankly, is lazy.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/19/richard-garriott-game-designers-suck/
I guess it takes the best designer ever come to life to turn Ultima into a dubious cash-grab.

That's rather misleading of you to hack it apart and present it like that.

The full excerpt

“You know, I go back to the day when I was the programmer, I was the artist, I was the text writer, etcetera,” said Garriott. “Every artist we’ve ever hired ever is infinitely better at art than I ever was. I was never a good artist, or audio engineer, or composer. I was a pretty good programmer, but now all of our programmers are better than I am—but if I’d stayed in programming I could probably keep up.
“But other than a few exceptions, like Chris Roberts, I’ve met virtually no one in our industry who I think is close to as good a game designer as I am. I’m not saying that because I think I’m so brilliant. What I’m saying is, I think most game designers really just suck, and I think there’s a reason why.

"If you like games, you eventually get to the point where you’d like to make one,” said Garriott. “But if you had this magic art talent as a youth, you can refine your skills and show a portfolio and say, ‘I’m a good artist, go hire me’ If you’re nerdy enough to hack into a computer, programming on your own, you can go to school and learn proper structure, make code samples and go ‘Look, I’m a good programmer, hire me.’
“But if you’re not a good artist and not a good programmer, but you still like games, you become a designer, if you follow me. You get into Q&A and often design."

and I pretty much agree with all of that. I don't think many here on the Codex would disagree.


He also goes on to say:

“And every designer that I work with—all throughout life—I think, frankly, is lazy,” said Garriot, adding “to give you another zinger” in reference to my ribbing him earlier over his “game designers suck” line.

I think there’s really very few great game designers,” he continued. “I think Chris Roberts is one of them, Will Wright’s another, Peter Molyneux is another. They clearly exist, but on the whole, I think that the design talent in our industry is dramatically lower than we need, as an industry. It’s a very hard skill to learn.”

I generally agree with both quotes (especially the one about dramatically lower standards than needed) but with the former, I think LB himself has proven rather lazy in the area of design. He's been reusing his material for decades. He doesn't come up with fundamentally new designs so much as iterate on the same basic ideas. He could've used this Shroud game as the opportunity to really prove himself but it's like a generic action RPG with the weak character system of Ultima, the square landmass of the very early games, the old LB concept again and not much else. This is the stuff of indie modders. He's going to have to do a lot more to prove he's been able to keep up in the field of design.

 

[Jaesun]

I think the ironic part is as the "great" designers moved further and further away from their core skills and moved more into designer/producer roles, they actually became worse at designing.

Design is no longer a word. What makes retarded Console Billy and Suzy always entertained is game design now (and profits to make the shareholders happy).

 

[Minttunator]

I think we all agree that most today's game designers do suck. Why LB - who hasn't produced anything even remotely decent in 15 years - places himself above them is beyond me, though.

And his examples of good game designers are Molyneux and the guys at Bioware? This is just getting sad. o_O

 

[Infinitron]

I’ve met virtually no one…who I think is close to as good a game designer as I am.
I think most game designers really just suck
And every designer that I work with…I think, frankly, is lazy.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/19/richard-garriott-game-designers-suck/
I guess it takes the best designer ever come to life to turn Ultima into a dubious cash-grab.

Holy SHIT.

Posting this in the Ultima fan group on Facebook.

 

[HobGoblin42]

Molyneux...dear god.

Populous
Syndicate
Magic Carpet
Dungeon Keeper
Theme Park
Black&White
Powermonger

I loved all those games and that's why I am absolutely convinced that Molyneux deserves the title "Great Game Designer".

 

[BobtheTree]

He should have just been completely honest from the beginning and said he want to make a new Ultima Online like game.

I would have probably backed that if he had.

Yea, more than anything else I just hated that he was clearly trying to sell a MMO but wouldn't come out and say it. I still probably wouldn't back it because I'm highly skeptical of MMOs, but I wouldn't have found the Kickstarter campaign quite as deceptive and seedy.

 

[Jaesun]

He should have just been completely honest from the beginning and said he want to make a new Ultima Online like game.

I would have probably backed that if he had.

Yea, more than anything else I just hated that he was clearly trying to sell a MMO but wouldn't come out and say it. I still probably wouldn't back it because I'm highly skeptical of MMOs, but I wouldn't have found the Kickstarter campaign quite as deceptive and seedy.

The one thing is he is not being deceptive though. He truly lives in some bizarre fantasy land where he is the greatest developer of all time.

 

[BobtheTree]

Does that really surprise any of us? I mean the guy made himself king of his own video game series!

 

[Infinitron]

Does that really surprise any of us? I mean the guy made himself king of his own video game series!

The self-insertion shit was Acceptable In The 80s (see "Faran Brygo" in Wasteland) but he did take it further than everybody else.

 

[Whisky]

Molyneux...dear god.

Populous
Syndicate
Magic Carpet
Dungeon Keeper
Theme Park
Black&White
Powermonger

I loved all those games and that's why I am absolutely convinced that Molyneux deserves the title "Great Game Designer".

Sorry, it's just so hard to remember that Molyneux used to be groundbreaking with all the crap he's made recently. I loved many of his old games too.

 

[St. Toxic]

So if Molyneux came out with a kickstarter saying he wanted to return to his roots, would you back it?

 

[Zed]

Molyneux...dear god.

Populous
Syndicate
Magic Carpet
Dungeon Keeper
Theme Park
Black&White
Powermonger

I loved all those games and that's why I am absolutely convinced that Molyneux deserves the title "Great Game Designer".

The Movies, too. One of my favorite games.

 

[HobGoblin42]

So if Molyneux came out with a kickstarter saying he wanted to return to his roots, would you back it?

Dear god, no !

 

[JarlFrank]

Didn't Moly do that already with Godus?

 

[Alex]

I dunno. I may be wrong, but I think game design isn't all that difficult, and there are plenty of good game designers around. Heck, almost anyone who had to don the GM hat in a paper & pencil game has some game design experience.

I think the problem with games today is much more that various circumstances prevent them from changing too much. For some it may be publishers who won't greenlit anything too risky. To others it may be an inability to market anything that doesn't fit snuggly into the patterns of modern games. To others, it may by just that the kind of public you would end up reaching would be way too small. Anyway, we end up in the same situation, where anything trying something different ends up being a flash sized game.