Obsidian General Discussion Thread

[0sacred]

Production Essentials Summit: No Mavericks, No Martyrs: Sustainable, Collaborative Production

Most game teams have mavericks and martyrs--devs who work outside of normal pipelines and hours to get additional content and features into the game. Driven by "passion," they're often seen as leaders and MVPs.

However, the habits and attitudes that martyrs and mavericks instill have long-term consequences for team and project health. Their work often leads to scope bloat for downstream departments, shortcuts that accrue bugs and tech debt, and mistrust between "less committed" devs who resent the scope creep on the one hand and rogue agents hacking in risky and unaccounted-for content on the other.

so a tl;dr about how men should adopt the female mode of being in the workplace

what a useless, obvious and oblivious cunt

isn't this exactly how Fallout was born

 

[Roguey]

isn't this exactly how Fallout was born

TIM CAIN

Since everybody could technically go home at six, I sent out an email saying, "I'm going to be in Conference Room 3 with a couple pepperonis and a cheese pizza at six. If you want to talk about developing a new game, I've got the engine partially written. I can show you what the features are. I can kind of show you how the scripting is going to work. Come by and we can talk about what genres you like."

I hadn't even picked that out. There was no art, no genre.

LEONARD BOYARSKY

Only five or six people showed up. Which, to me, was shocking. Even if you didn't want to design a game from scratch—and I couldn't believe people didn't want to be involved in that—there was free pizza! If you don't care about one, I'd think you'd care about the other.

TIM CAIN

I remember what was surprising at the time was how few people showed up. I expected there to be twenty or thirty people packed into that conference room because, hey, we can make whatever game we want! Instead there were maybe eight, ten.

Patel would have been one of the employees who definitely wouldn't bother to show up. Only the passionate people excited to make a game from scratch stayed late to talk about it.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Only five or six people showed up. Which, to me, was shocking. Even if you didn't want to design a game from scratch—and I couldn't believe people didn't want to be involved in that

main difference between people who actually want to create something vs people who just want to be "in the industry"

 

[0sacred]

Carrie Patel now pushing for black power naps at Obsidian

 

[Nano]

Production Essentials Summit: No Mavericks, No Martyrs: Sustainable, Collaborative Production

Most game teams have mavericks and martyrs--devs who work outside of normal pipelines and hours to get additional content and features into the game. Driven by "passion," they're often seen as leaders and MVPs.

However, the habits and attitudes that martyrs and mavericks instill have long-term consequences for team and project health. Their work often leads to scope bloat for downstream departments, shortcuts that accrue bugs and tech debt, and mistrust between "less committed" devs who resent the scope creep on the one hand and rogue agents hacking in risky and unaccounted-for content on the other.

This talk will examine how the unchecked enthusiasm of mavericks and martyrs can sabotage a team, healthier approaches that can foster sustainable and collaborative passion, and practical steps leads and producers can take to steer devs in a more productive direction without squashing their joy for their work.

Takeaway
Attendees will gain a concrete understanding of how seemingly innocuous individual behaviors can drive a team and their game towards disaster, a healthier mindset that can temper passion with collaboration and discipline, and practical tactics they can deploy to steer a team away from the brink.

Intended Audience
This talk is primarily directed at producers, directors, and strike team leads--leaders and managers who are responsible for team health and productivity. Other devs will find useful takeaways to inform their work habits. No prior knowledge is necessary, though production experience will give attendees useful context.

Pathetic lazy cunt.

 

[TedNugent]

how people many times are morally gray and make decisions that make sense on their situation to survive even if not moralistic, how culture needs myths and symbols to make people stick together and how those same myths lead them to inevitable conflict.

This is literally what Pillars of Eternity's plot is about lol

 

[BlackheartXIII]

well, Patel originally came from Ernst and Young's transfer pricing department before she was hired at obsidian, so i am not surprised that she vouching for a flat and conformist corporate culture.

 

[Hobknobling]

In my native language, there is a term for the type of job that the video game industry should mostly consist of. The term is "kutsumusammatti" and it roughly translates to "calling profession". It means that you have a calling (passion) for doing something and you are willing to work for a smaller compensation in exchange for getting to work professionally towards your calling.

You cannot make truly great games working nine-to-five. Go get a regular IT job if you want regular hours.

 

[BlackheartXIII]

In my native language, there is a term for the type of job that the video game industry should mostly consist of. The term is "kutsumusammatti" and it roughly translates to "calling profession". It means that you have a calling (passion) for doing something and you are willing to work for a smaller compensation in exchange for getting to work professionally towards your calling.

You cannot make truly great games working nine-to-five. Go get a regular IT job if you want regular hours.

a lot of those self professed creatives don't have the intellectual rigor to achieve a BA in the exact sciences faculties, therefore it might be difficult for them to apply for entry level positions such as I.T or Q.A. in the same note i would like to remined that a writing position in a gaming studio is a steady writing job which is very rare in the publishing industry, maybe thats the main reason that in the last 10 years we are witnessing a migration of failing YA novelists into to the field of video games writing.

 

[Nano]

in the same note i would like to remined that a writing position in a gaming studio is a steady writing job which is very rare in the publishing industry, maybe thats the main reason that in the last 10 years we are witnessing a migration of failing YA novelists into to the field of video games writing.

That's actually a very good point.

 

[Infinitron]

The truth is that in many ways writing for large RPGs in particular has evolved to become a job well suited to women. There's a lot of mind-numbing "secretarial" work involved - it's not all about the major plot twists and the standout characters that everyone remembers. These games have hundreds of minor NPCs, each with all sorts of minor reactivity that needs to be accounted for. Design documents and inventory item descriptions. The high-achieving alpha talent will want to move on to higher level roles as soon as possible. For many, writing scripts for prestige television shows will seem a lot more interesting.

 

[BlackheartXIII]

in the 90's alot of this "mind-numbing "secretarial" work" were given to aspiring designers ( that's how we got Josh Sawyer), maybe due to the creation and the expension of "professional" writing teams in rpg studios most of that kind of work is preserved to their interns, therefore this "back door" pipeline is declining, Might explain the hiring of like minded people in writing positions in most studios (with basically the same background (educational and socioeconomical)) and the homogeneous of rpg writing in general.

 

[KVVRR]

https://www.katedollarhyde.com/publications

check the link, according to Dollarhyde's (creative freelancer) website she is assigned as a narrative lead at avowed and as a narrative designer in an unannounced title- most likely josh swayers Disco Elysium esque project.

about Dollarhyde's writing career ambitions:
"The main titles I’ve worked on these past three years, Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire and The Outer Worlds, have been nominated for and won their share of awards in the games sphere. To see our work recognized by players and developers—it’s been undeniably gratifying. But science fiction and fantasy literature has always been my real home base. Uncool and terminally earnest as it might sound, it was that writing and reading community I desperately wanted to be part of (still do) and recognized by (still, still do) more even than I ever wanted to make video games."

quoted from: https://putadungeoninit.substack.co...&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=substack_profile

I suppose that's to be expected seeing as how awful the writing for alternative player choices in the Outer Worlds was.

 

[PorkaMorka]

In my native language, there is a term for the type of job that the video game industry should mostly consist of. The term is "kutsumusammatti" and it roughly translates to "calling profession". It means that you have a calling (passion) for doing something and you are willing to work for a smaller compensation in exchange for getting to work professionally towards your calling.

You cannot make truly great games working nine-to-five. Go get a regular IT job if you want regular hours.

What you say is true, but there is a tension between the idea of video game development as a calling and the way video games are actually produced today.

A small team making a game they always wanted to make, where each person has a lot of input on how things turned out, sure that might be a calling.

But a large AAA team making the next big budget game in an established series? Where each person's contribution is very specific and limited and they have little or no input on the direction of the game? A 3d modeler who is in charge of modeling door knobs, room interiors and the occasional generic minion?

That sounds a lot more like a job than a calling. Probably a pretty shitty job, if you're expected to work longer hours for smaller compensation.

 

[vortex]

Guys, I'll just put it out there. Should Pillars 3 or some other pillars game use only one protagonist watcher and play from 3rd person view like the Witcher? Or try to its luck to beat BG3 as isometric TB/RPwP ?
I think that playing like the Withcer in open world game would be more successful title for Obsidian.

 

[onemananadhisdroid]

Guys, I'll just put it out there. Should Pillars 3 or some other pillars game use only one protagonist watcher and play from 3rd person view like the Witcher? Or try to its luck to beat BG3 as isometric TB/RPwP ?
I think that playing like the Withcer in open world game would be more successful title for Obsidian.

I'm one of them who'd like a conclusion to a -- possibly -- Watcher's trilogy.

If they really ever think about switching the format for a possible third game, I'd rather have them take a real close look at their own games, namely, a real close look at New Vegas. In the ongoing quest of the (very few) bigger budget studios to attract an ever larger audience, it's like the only (AAA) RPG of the last decade plus or so that truly earns its tag, and it's a pity that it didn't prove more influential. But then you only attract ever more players on top of the genre's core if you now clearly also desperately aim for the Ubisoft action/adventure and/or Borderlands looter shooter crowd, so... let the quest$ continue.

I've posted this elsewhere already, but from my observation, at least every since the "Kickstarter renaissance", the genre has even become ever more radicalized and polarized: There's been a wealth of BG/Fallout-lookalikes on the one side -- on the other there's the big studios developing games that increasingly play, look and feel like every other blockbuster title on the market they try to compete (and fit) in. But there's very limited middle ground. I think games such as New Vegas (or prior to it Bloodlines, maybe even Kotor) previously fit that slot just pretty fine.

 

[vortex]

I'm one of them who'd like a conclusion to a -- possibly -- Watcher's trilogy.

If they really ever think about switching the format for a possible third game, I'd rather have them take a real close look at their own games, namely, a real close look at New Vegas.

I've posted this elsewhere already, but from my observation, at least every since the "Kickstarter renaissance", the genre has even become ever more radicalized and polarized: There's been a wealth of BG/Fallout-lookalikes on the one side -- on the other there's the big studios developing games that increasingly play, look and feel like every other blockbuster title on the market they try to compete (and fit) in. But there's very limited middle ground. I think games such as New Vegas (or prior to it Bloodlines, maybe even Kotor) previously fit that slot just pretty fine.

If they'll switch format as 3rd person view, they should start brand new Watcher's trilogy.
Larian has set new heights for isometric cRPG and judging from the size of Obsidian I don't think Pillars 3 can achieve BG3 success.
We'll see if Avowed would be a turning point as first person RPG and thus ditching isometric format altogether.

 

[Flou]

If they'll switch format as 3rd person view, they should start brand new Watcher's trilogy.
Larian has set new heights for isometric cRPG and judging from the size of Obsidian I don't think Pillars 3 can achieve BG3 success.
We'll see if Avowed would be a turning point as first person RPG and thus ditching isometric format altogether.

I don't think they should ditch it completely. They can still make quality games that way with smaller teams. Their smaller teams are stuck doing something else though.

 

[koyota]

Guys, I'll just put it out there. Should Pillars 3 or some other pillars game use only one protagonist watcher and play from 3rd person view like the Witcher? Or try to its luck to beat BG3 as isometric TB/RPwP ?
I think that playing like the Withcer in open world game would be more successful title for Obsidian.

I`m sure you will be able to press a button get into third person mode in Avowed, there you go!

 

[vortex]

I`m sure you will be able to press a button get into third person mode in Avowed, there you go!

I hope Avowed doesn't do that because I oppose it strongly.

 

[The Great Deceiver]

Won't Avoved just be Outer Worlds with swords? I remember reading somewhere about it. I.e. we shouldn't expect too much from it.

 

[Roguey]

A programmer posting on glassdoor seems to be happy with the way things are going now:

Pros

Talented team

Great work/life balance, little to no crunch

Hardened development pipeline

Accommodating to find work that aligns with your interests

Cons

Nothing unique to Obsidian.

Goalposts may move, features may be removed, etc...

The days of crunch are over, eh? We'll see how things are when there's only a few months left to ship.

 

[BlackheartXIII]

here a link to a pdf file for the slides from the rules of the game talk that occurred at GDC22:
https://paranoidproductions.com/miscwritings/RulesOfTheGame2022.pdf

the slides are presenting 4 perspectives and design philosophies from 4 different professional "creatives" that unintentionally shedding a light on the institutionalization of games and the creative decline in games in general. Carrie Patel narrative design philosophy presented in slides 59-68, that argues that a game narrative design should borrow structural templates from improvisational theatre as model for understanding and precipitating player's interactions and expectations.

 

[Roguey]

Our next speaker Carrie Patel is a novelist, and also a Game Director and Narrative
Designer at Obsidian, where she has worked on everything from Pillars of Eternity, to The
Outer Worlds, and she is the director on the forthcoming Avowed.

The first official acknowledgement and it's in a GDC presentation of all things.

Audience participation is key to both improv and games
o People play games because they want to participate in the experience (not
observe)
o So how do we keep them involved?
o ***Question gets to the heart of why some game dialogue feels skippable (and how
we can avoid this)
o Skippable dialogue takes player out of role of SCENE PARTNER and makes
them SPECTATOR
o (which isn’t what they came to your game for!)
o Happens one of two ways:
o Dialogue = overly expository, delivering information (not on expressing
character, establishing stakes, or escalating tension)
o Dialogue -> monologue, only character expressing motivation/personality,
advancing scene = NPC
o In improv, you wouldn’t hog a scene like this

And yet, in my understanding of Deadfire's plot, you feel more like a spectator than a participant.

 

[BlackheartXIII]

its seems those point realized through self reflection and scrutiny from her pervious games, in the same note the GDC is a celebration of hypocrisy, narcissism and incompetence, so Patel (and her colleagues) probably will not practice what she sermonized. well, as roguey mentioned above at least we got an official acknowledgement.