Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[tuluse]

Thanks guys, but really I'm far from the best Codexian poster on those boards. I'm always envious of people who can pump out well-researched walls of text, such as Alex.

It's because you are being more middle ground and finding out the important aspects (such as the magic system, cool downs, etc) without being either a rampant fanboy or someone who overreacts to every single little news.

Imagine if the first arcanum went through kickstarter, I wonder how the Codex would have handled that pitch and the systems involved

We would have convinced Mr Cain to drop real time combat for majestic incline?

 

[Dexter]

"RPG Codex" is arguing against "player's experience" in favor of their "expectation" so no, they aren't. Sawyer's already deadset on trying the spells-recharge-between-battles-via-cooldown idea, and if it doesn't make it in it'll be because it sucked, not because several dozen people told him they hate cooldowns.

Somekind of spells-recharge-between-battles-via-cooldown can work, as someone said in the PE forums said it could work as "One charge recharges every 10 minutes" what can actually work without giving players chance of spamming the spells.

It can't work, cooldown systems are inherently shit and I played at least half a dozen of MMOs with them that basically ruined their chances at becoming great since they copied the mechanics 1:1 from the "great" shining example WoW, they even have cooldowns that take 60 minutes or hours and it's just tedious and rarely really tactical.
Quick cooldowns degrade into identifying the best spell rotation to do the maximum amount of DPS and players will likely repeatedly spam it over and over with a lot of spells that would be used tactically if they were limited to a set amount of charges being ignored.

I'm still waiting for someone, ANYONE to tell me a single game where cooldown worked out well for the combat system or tactically or why they believe that Obsidian of all people (remember Alpha Protocols combat system, or some of the mechanics in NWN2 including the "hunger meter" in MoTB or some of the new systems in SoZ, and even their latest game Dungeon Siege III that kinda worked for shit as an ARPG) would be the ones to solve this problem and do a cooldown system that properly "works" all of a sudden? They never were really good at game mechanics and a lot better at story, why start from the basis of making inherently broken game mechanics better?

Edit: I should've probably specified that I meant CRPGs or even MMOs with tactical battle in mind with "cooldowns not working", even in certain ARPGs like Diablo/Diablo 2 and Torchlight 1/2 they always work satisfactory to a certain extent. But they're more about clicking things dead with your mouse as quick as you can, and less about having a party of adventurers and tactical encounters.
I had stated this here before http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...t-eternity-thread.75947/page-151#post-2293444

 

[Jaesun]

"RPG Codex" is arguing against "player's experience" in favor of their "expectation" so no, they aren't. Sawyer's already deadset on trying the spells-recharge-between-battles-via-cooldown idea, and if it doesn't make it in it'll be because it sucked, not because several dozen people told him they hate cooldowns.

Somekind of spells-recharge-between-battles-via-cooldown can work, as someone said in the PE forums said it could work as "One charge recharges every 10 minutes" what can actually work without giving players chance of spamming the spells.

It can't work, cooldown systems are inherently shit and I played at least half a dozen of MMOs with them that basically ruined their chances at becoming great since they copied the mechanics 1:1 from the "great" shining example WoW, they even have cooldowns that take 60 minutes or hours and it's just tedious and rarely really tactical.
Quick cooldowns degrade into identifying the best spell rotation to do the maximum amount of DPS and players will likely repeatedly spam it over and over with a lot of spells that would be used tactically if they were limited to a set amount of charges being ignored.

I'm still waiting for someone, ANYONE to tell me a single game where cooldown worked out well for the combat system or tactically or why they believe that Obsidian of all people (remember Alpha Protocols combat system, or some of the mechanics in NWN2 including the "hunger meter" in MoTB or some of the new systems in SoZ, and even their latest game Dungeon Siege III that kinda worked for shit as an ARPG) would be the ones to solve this problem and do a cooldown system that properly "works" all of a sudden? They never were really good at game mechanics and a lot better at story, why start from the basis of making inherently broken game mechanics better?

You ARE aware Sawyer already specifically stated there will NOT be WOW/DA type cool-downs in PE (as in LOL FIREBALL WAIT 5 SECONDS LOL FIREBALL WAIT 5 SECONDS LOL) right??

 

[Dexter]

You ARE aware Sawyer already specifically stated there will NOT be WOW/DA type cool-downs in PE (as in LOL FIREBALL WAIT 5 SECONDS LOL FIREBALL WAIT 5 SECONDS LOL) right??

What other cooldowns are there?

Cooldown implies waiting a set period of time to be able to activate a skill again and nothing else, either they are long (10 minutes+ lulz I need to await my Ultimate) or short (spamfest). If he wants all the resources to come back after battle or whatever else he said, I think that was labeled "auto-regeneration" and would be equally bad xD

 

[tuluse]

Cool downs work pretty well with space sims. Different rates of fire and reload times for each weapon on your ship. However, there are three significant differences from a space sim and a party based RPG.

1) You can, and are expected, to do things simultaneously. This means there is no time spent just waiting. Even if you're waiting for all your weapons to recharge, you're still piloting the ship, trying to dodge, and get in position for when you can fire again. Usually you also have at least one weapon to fire too.

2) They're fast paced games where you just control a single entity (ok, some have squad mechanics, but that was never a focus). This means cool downs can be short without creating imbalance. It's ok for one wizard to cast cone of cold every 7 seconds, but not 3 able to do the same thing.

3) When you can't shoot in an action game it creates tension, when you can't shoot in a tactical party based game, it creates boredom. You just hide the guy who's waiting, and let the rest of the party handle it 90% of the time. There will be a few times when tension is created because you need to last *just* long enough to get one more fireball off, but those times will be rare and not worth boring times.

 

[tuluse]

You ARE aware Sawyer already specifically stated there will NOT be WOW/DA type cool-downs in PE (as in LOL FIREBALL WAIT 5 SECONDS LOL FIREBALL WAIT 5 SECONDS LOL) right??

What other cooldowns are there?

Cooldown implies waiting a set period of time to be able to activate a skill again and nothing else, if he wants all the resources to come back after battle or whatever else he said, I think that was labeled "auto-regeneration" and would be equally bad xD

From his posts yesterday, it sounded like he wanted to emulate 4E encounter based abilities. So the cool downs would recharge only when there are no threats nearby to prevent players from exploiting the game state (tricking into thinking combat has ended).

 

[Jaesun]

You ARE aware Sawyer already specifically stated there will NOT be WOW/DA type cool-downs in PE (as in LOL FIREBALL WAIT 5 SECONDS LOL FIREBALL WAIT 5 SECONDS LOL) right??

What other cooldowns are there?

THAT my friend is the 2.3 million dollar question.

 

[Black]

Good show, Stillain of the Vory!
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60885-overreaction-theater/page__st__200#entry1221571

 

[Livonya]

I can't resist.

FTL has cool downs that work. (They can even be set to AUTOFIRE which should be a major selling point... no more pressing of buttons!)

FTL has RTwP combat that works.

FTL is a great game. (It really is, I finally unlocked the slug ship last night!)

PE should just use the amazing, tactical, and ground breaking combat engine of FTL!!

 

[wormix]

All we know is he's 'toying' with some kind of cooldown mechanic replacing limited spell casting.

The difference between short (multiple uses per combat) and long (one or less uses per combat - arbitrary but you get the point) is like the difference between tactics and strategy (except we know that 'tactical' cooldowns isn't tactical at all). Strategic cooldowns could work but it just seems 'wrong' to a lot of people.

All we can do is trust that the mechanic won't get implemented if it ends out shit, which a lot of people are unwilling to do for obvious reasons. And try to discuss different ways to tackle the flaws that he brought up.

Whether or not you agree that they're flaws that warrant 'fixing' isn't really the issue, and arguing that will get you nowhere, no matter how entertaining.

 

[tuluse]

Good show, Stillain of the Vory!
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60885-overreaction-theater/page__st__200#entry1221571

If only he could be less aggressive in tone, I think a lot of people react to that instead of the content.

 

[Infinitron]

Good show, Stillain of the Vory!
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60885-overreaction-theater/page__st__200#entry1221571

villain of the story FYI, latest news is that there will be no level scaling. http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/377480249010585532

 

[Shadenuat]

If only he could be less aggressive in tone, I think a lot of people react to that instead of the content.

What content? Seems like another dramatic "BETRAYAL!11" based on Sawyer just doing his job and collecting feedback.

 

[Jaesun]

Can anyone give us the TL;DR version of D&D's 4ed magic system? Is is all cool-down based? And what is the time limit (1 hour? 45 seconds?)?

 

[Infinitron]

Can anyone give us the TL;DR version of D&D's 4ed magic system? Is is all cool-down based? And what is the time limit (1 hour? 45 seconds?)?

I don't know if it's cooldown based per se (how do you do that in a PnP game?), but it features many abilities that reset after every encounter.

 

[Spockrock]

newfag.

giggity, the irony

 

[Jaesun]

Can anyone give us the TL;DR version of D&D's 4ed magic system? Is is all cool-down based? And what is the time limit (1 hour? 45 seconds?)?

I don't know if it's cooldown based per se (how do you do that in a PnP game?), but it features many abilities that reset after every encounter.

OK so something like a Level 5 mage can cast ONE fireball per encounter. Then after the encounter ends, the fireball will be available (for a next encounter).

 

[Shadenuat]

TL;DR version of D&D's 4ed magic system

Characters get a number of abilities based on their level. These come in generaly three types - at-will (every round), per-encounter and per-day. Things like Knock are Rituals - you spend like 5 minutes waving hands, using ingredients, and spell happens.

 

[Jaesun]

TL;DR version of D&D's 4ed magic system

Characters get a number of abilities based on their level. These come in generaly three types - at-will (every round), per-encounter and per-day. Things like Knock are Rituals - you spend like 5 minutes waving hands, using ingredients, and spell happens.

Is there still spell memorization?

 

[wormix]

Is there some other resource or limit on what you can cast, or can you just stand there spamming magic missile the entire time?

 

[Shadenuat]

OK so something like a Level 5 mage can cast ONE fireball per encounter.

Fireball is a daily ability, I think.

Is there still spell memorization?

No.

Is there some other resource or limit on what you can cast, or can you just stand there spamming magic missile the entire time?

Ehh, don't remember. I think you need to pass a Spellcraft check? But yeah, you can spam some shit, but this shit is generally is like ray of frost. Not that powerful.
Whole system is very gamy and MMOish, which is why it is controversial. However, some people like it very much because you can actually do stuff in combat, and a lot of stuff, instead of standing around shooting your sling. On the other hand, every class is like a deck of these gamy cards, like, everyone has these per-something abilities. Spoony made a good video about the system.

 

[Jaesun]

Thanks bro.

 

[skuphundaku]

Not even resting guys. Its spam your best spells per battle.

Macross Missile Massacre or bust!

 

[GordonHalfman]

That doesn't sound that bad. Although Sawyer would probably take issue with those per-day abilities, because what if the player wants to use one, but doesn't know whether he'll need it for the next encounter? What then, hmm?

 

[Shadenuat]

Also, you actually need to rest a bit after using per-encounter powers. There are different types of rest - 5 minute one replenishes per-encounter powers, while you can rest 1 time per 24 hours for 6 hours to regain all powers - both encounter and daily. So that Sawyers 45 cooldown after combat is a lot like that.

Although Sawyer would probably take issue with those per-day abilities, because what if the player wants to use one, but doesn't know whether he'll need it for the next encounter? What then, hmm?

Hehehe, yeah.