Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Shadenuat]

But I remember wondering, because she couldn't kiss anyone, whether they could still do all the other stuff besides kiss on the lips.

Well, maybe one of the better sides of being immortal is that TNO could have sex with succubus, die and then rise from the dead.

 

[evdk]

But I remember wondering, because she couldn't kiss anyone, whether they could still do all the other stuff besides kiss on the lips.

Well, maybe one of the better sides of being immortal is that TNO could have sex with succubus, die and then rise from the dead.

That's some serious la petite morte.

 

[octavius]

The PsychoBlonde wants to come up with solutions to the "degenerate rest" problem: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60377-solutions-to-the-degenerate-rest/

I don't see the big problem. If you want to abuse the game machanics and do the unleash hell-rest-rinse and repeat trick, and think that's fun, so do it. Personally I try a bit of role playing, and not rest more than once per day or per dungeon. I was able to get through most areas of Pools of Darkness, Dark Queen of Krynn and the Baldur's Gate games that way. Conserving your magic, and scouting in the BG and IWD games, makes the games more strategic, which is a good thing in my book. Hopefully Project Eternity will be similar.

No matter what the devs do there's alway people who think beating the game mechanics is more fun than beating the game. And as long as it's a single player game it doesn't really matter.
Ultra lame stuff like instant healing after combat is much worse and can ruin a game by taking away the challenge.

 

[Roguey]

Sawyer elaborated on respeccing btw
http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...d=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=2#post407719398

Things I am in favor of in RPGs:

* Allowing the player to respec advancement choices (e.g. skills, feats, spells, etc.) at specific points in the game.
* Tying the respec to something that is explained in the context of the world (e.g. a trainer NPC of some sort or at least a location where the character can spend time).
* Imposing a non-trivial cost to the respec.
* Tying respec capability to level of difficulty and/or game modes.

Things I am not in favor of:

* Allowing the player to respec the base aspects of a character (e.g. class, race). Especially when it comes to companions, many of these concepts are too integral to what the character is all about.

I have been making RPGs for 13 years. During that time, I have directly watched literally hundreds of people play these games and indirectly heard many more describe their experiences. I've seen expert players, moderately-experienced players, and people who are new to RPGs. It brings me only misery to see someone stop playing a game because they slowly realize they made an irrevocable strategic mistake due to their own ignorance, lack of experience, or even careless reading of a description.

I think it is good to allow advanced players to lock off respec options and I think it is good to put an in-game cost and location restrictions on when/where respec can occur, but I think it is extremely valuable tool, even for experienced players. In a system that allows myriad options, it is extremely easy for a player to make a choice that is valid and grants a benefit but does not produce the outcome they expect (e.g. produces an orthogonal rather than directly complementary/stacking benefit).

I see nothing wrong with this.

 

[Infinitron]

Remember, the point is not just to pick the best option for the game, but also to send a message to the game developers that us hardcore D&Ders are out in force.

BTW, we are approaching 1.7 million dollars.

 

[oldmanpaco]

Is mana/cooldown the only alternative they're considering? I haven't been following PE that closely.

The problem is that carbon-copying the Vancian system from PNP does not work for CRPGs. In CRPGs there is 10x more combat, without DM oversight, plus very very little non-combat magic opportunities. Strategic? It's only strategic if you have some method to scout or investigation a situation/adventure/dungeon before making memorization choices. Otherwise it's not really strategy... just logistics.

I mean Vancian magic would work if either (A) the campaign, encounters all, were balanced around the system, rather than having filler combat willy nilly, or (B) the system was balanced for the amount of combat in the game (between rest periods). Or I guess any mixture of the two.

Your poll is dumb, btw. I picked "Other" for all three because the success of a design choice depends on how well it fits in the whole design, and how well it is implemented. It's not a black and white choice.

The magic system has not been really discussed beyond something to do with souls. Like I said I was speculating.

When you have multiple magic using members of a party and a limited number of spells - offensive, defensive, healing, utility - the planning of what you will memorize is a strategic decision based on location, party equipment and expected foes. I agree non-combat uses of magic are far to limited in the classic IE games and most games in-general.

I agree that balancing is hard. But it's hard for every game.

Make your own damn poll. I was at work and didn't have a ton of time. I just put in the IE version, what I thought was the next most common and then the Other option.

 

[Captain Shrek]

I am totally against the Vancian system from narrative point of view. Mechanistically speaking it is possible to balance any magic system that is not out right OP or underpowered.

I will give reasons:

Vancian system has no inherent cost: It just requires re-memorization. Which means magic (by definition super powered) is cheap. This makes the entire idea of magic being awe-inspiring meaningless.

I rather favor a cost based system. One of my acquaintances, with whom I play PnP, has invented a cool Cost based system where the cost of spell casting is Runes. Not runes that you can craft, but runes that are symbolic of events that you achieve according to the events that happen in the game (surviving an icestorm gives a ice rune e.g.). You do not get a fire rune for casting a fireball spell but get a death rune if it results in death for balance reasons. This way you can force the characters to make sensible character choices all the while creating meta-narratives.

Now this is just an example that is probably invalid from cRPG perspective.

The point is that magic should feel rare and terrifying/exhilarating. If you could do it all the time especially for free, it kills the beauty of it.

 

[Executer]

I'm not sure if a memorization system will be a focus.

Jeez fuck, Feargus probably has PR talk in his blood now. What the fuck does it mean that it's not a focus? It's either in or not. Not a focus... typical PR bullshit meant to keep the sheeple confused.

Maybe they'll do what the Chaos Chronicle guys are doing and cross a (D&D) wizard with a sorcerer.

 

[octavius]

I am totally against the Vancian system from narrative point of view. Mechanistically speaking it is possible to balance any magic system that is not out right OP or underpowered.

I will give reasons:

Vancian system has no inherent cost: It just requires re-memorization. Which means magic (by definition super powered) is cheap. This makes the entire idea of magic being awe-inspiring meaningless.

I rather favor a cost based system. One of my acquaintances, with whom I play PnP, has invented a cool Cost based system where the cost of spell casting is Runes. Not runes that you can craft, but runes that are symbolic of events that you achieve according to the events that happen in the game (surviving an icestorm gives a ice rune e.g.). You do not get a fire rune for casting a fireball spell but get a death rune if it results in death for balance reasons. This way you can force the characters to make sensible character choices all the while creating meta-narratives.

Now this is just an example that is probably invalid from cRPG perspective.

The point is that magic should feel rare and terrifying/exhilarating. If you could do it all the time especially for free, it kills the beauty of it.

Vancian magic has a cost: the time it takes to prepare each spell. And in the pen and paper versions most (I think) spells also have a component cost.

Why should magic feel rare? Why not the whole range from magic being very rare (like in Tolkien's Middle Earth) to being common (Forgotten Realms)?

 

[Captain Shrek]

Vancian magic has a cost: the time it takes to prepare each spell. And in the pen and paper versions most (I think) spells also have a component cost.

Time is not a good cost. Simply because the metric of time is either too short or too long. Allow me to explain: Let's assume that time corresponds to the action of taking rest. If you have to rest for over too much time, the narrative looses sense. If you have to rest too little time, the cost is too cheap. If rest is only possible within fixed points, wizards become useless once they exhaust spells. The best way to check that is to invent a metric which allows contineous regeneration like MANA points but not automatic and fixed regeneration. i.e Not allow casting the same spells again and again with the same ingredients. Please realize that this is not similar to cooldown times. Time is not a metric at all here, but rather some kind of resource that is sourced through the story. I agree that this means really writing the game well.

Why should magic feel rare? Why not the whole range from magic being very rare (like in Tolkien's Middle Earth) to being common (Forgotten Realms)?

As I said, I am against the idea of FR (or DnD) magic where +1 swords are dime a dozen. Magic is something that is un-natural by definition. It must be rare and weird to be so otherwise it would be tecnhology. Now don't be misled by the rules of magic that formalize it. That is a necessity from mechanistic point of view since otherwise implementing random effects would be a pain.

But I agree that this is a relative taste and people may have differing and valid opinions other than mine.

 

[Alex]

(...snip)
I see nothing wrong with this.

It is still respecing. It is still magically losing something you learned so you can learn something else. If you don't want this to be such a big deal, have these things not be linked so much to a "level". Vancian magic system cares nothing about re-specifying because if you learned a crappy spell, you can just ignore it and learn another one. Have what the character learns cost time,resources and not necessarily be employable at the same time, like D&D vancian magic, instead of making the system do unexplainable , senseless things like that.

 

[Roguey]

The PsychoBlonde wants to come up with solutions to the "degenerate rest" problem: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60377-solutions-to-the-degenerate-rest/

I don't see the big problem. If you want to abuse the game machanics and do the unleash hell-rest-rinse and repeat trick, and think that's fun, so do it.

A problem is that a lot of people don't think that's fun but feel obligated to do it anyway because it's the optimal thing to do, hence degenerate gameplay.

 

[Infinitron]

The PsychoBlonde wants to come up with solutions to the "degenerate rest" problem: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60377-solutions-to-the-degenerate-rest/

I don't see the big problem. If you want to abuse the game machanics and do the unleash hell-rest-rinse and repeat trick, and think that's fun, so do it.

A problem is that a lot of people don't think that's fun but feel obligated to do it anyway because it's the optimal thing to do, hence degenerate gameplay.

Yes, I actually think it's important to be aware of "OCD-inspiring gameplay elements".

There are lots of players out there who loot everything. Sell everything. Need to kill everything. Need to always be at full HP. And when they discover the game isn't fun that way, they complain.

Yes, they're crazy, but I think games need to find ways to encourage these types of players to give up on their OCD behavior, in the same way that they teach players how to mechanically play the game, with tutorials. A psychological tutorial, if you will.

 

[Roguey]

(...snip)
I see nothing wrong with this.

It is still respecing. It is still magically losing something you learned so you can learn something else. If you don't want this to be such a big deal, have these things not be linked so much to a "level". Vancian magic system cares nothing about re-specifying because if you learned a crappy spell, you can just ignore it and learn another one. Have what the character learns cost time,resources and not necessarily be employable at the same time, like D&D vancian magic, instead of making the system do unexplainable , senseless things like that.

That works for magic specifically but not a million other things. Anyway he said that he's in favor of allowing advanced players (you) the option of locking it out so who gives a damn?

 

[hoverdog]

A mechanic similar to MoTB Spirit Meter is a great way to discourage rest-scumming.

At the same time it's a majestic dumbfuck detector

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Include a romance in the game that involves a character that gets involved with the PC where said character uses the fuck out of you then dumps your ass, taking all your stuff in the process (all while never putting out!). It would be perfect(and lulzy)!

Day one mod: "Romance Fix"

 

[Grimlorn]

Romance thread 2 down.

 

[Jaesun]

Someone come up with a Choice and Consequences thread. I can't think of anything good to write up. :/

 

[Jaesun]

Romance thread 2 down.

 

[Infinitron]

Good god, these retards are making polls about everything.

"HERE'S MY BULLSHIT IDEA. YES/NO"

 

[Surf Solar]

Someone come up with a Choice and Consequences thread. I can't think of anything good to write up. :/

I really don't care even about C&C in this game. All I want is some dungeon romper in ye olde looks where I can level my shit up and maybe talk to NPC once or twice a (gaming) day.

 

[Jaesun]

Someone come up with a Choice and Consequences thread. I can't think of anything good to write up. :/

I really don't care even about C&C in this game. All I want is some dungeon romper in ye olde looks where I can level my shit up and maybe talk to NPC once or twice a (gaming) day.

They are again going for more the BG type of game-play. NOT pure tactical focus of say IWD. Granted if this project is successful maybe they will do an IWD like shootoff.

 

[XenomorphII]

Include a romance in the game that involves a character that gets involved with the PC where said character uses the fuck out of you then dumps your ass, taking all your stuff in the process (all while never putting out!). It would be perfect(and lulzy)!

Day one mod: "Romance Fix"

Do a DLC that has you catch up to them. Promise a conclusion to the romance.

Then when you catch them if you try to do a love conquers all get robbed again and wake up missing a vital organ and as the player slowly bleeds to death have a note appear on screen (that the PC notices and looks at) that calls you a dumbass/loser/etc. then slowly fade out as you die. Game over, save deleted, no reloads.

 

[Surf Solar]

I know, I misworded it. I wanted to say, was there THAT much C&C in the BG games?? I can't recall much of it to be honest.

 

[Infinitron]

Jaesun Well, they've mentioned wanting to have IWD-style deep, deep dungeons.

In any case, C&C is pretty much a given. This is Obsidian we're talking about. They booted Brian Mitsoda out of a project (AP) for not writing good enough C&C.