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Online Petition to Include a RTwP Mode in Baldur's Gate 3

Discussion in 'Larian Studios' started by Gaylord III, Apr 11, 2020.

  1. Alexandros Arcane

    Alexandros
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    Fuck those losers.
     
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  2. Gaylord III Literate

    Gaylord III
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    Hi, I understand everyone's sentiments. I'm not happy with the art direction either but petitions aren't supposed to be very broad in scope. I believe one of Larian's spokespeople has said the current assets are placeholders so the game will look more like BG3 in the final version. If not, then as you guys have pointed out they can't force us to buy it. It's a shame because I'm sure most of us want BG3 to revive the franchise and to be met with a similar critical reception as the first two games but some of their design choices have been very disappointing thus far. At least the petition signatories are trying to do them a favor by getting it back on track to a moderate extent. Having mainstream/broad appeal is one way to do it.
     
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  3. Slaver1 Educated

    Slaver1
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    They're barking up the wrong tree. The turn-based combat system is the least of the many problems BG 3 is grappling with.
     
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  4. Gaylord III Literate

    Gaylord III
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    Sure but not everyone will rank those issues by order of importance in the same way. Others aren't as inimical to the recently showcased artwork for example so this petition is an opportunity to prove that Larian responds to fan feedback, which could have a knock-on effect on other issues. We already have the data that indicates it would be a mistake not to reach out to the other half of the community that prefers a different combat mode. Can you quantify the amount/percentage of support or opposition to these other problems you speak of?
     
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  5. NJClaw Ontopolover by choice Patron

    NJClaw
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    Where is this data? Does it take into account the development effort necessary to support an entirely different game mode?

    Can you quantify the amount/percentage of support or opposition to the problem that you speak of?

    Honestly, the petition is ridiculous:
    Yeah... so? VR as a medium can too, should we go for a VR BG3?
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Burdened? We are talking about Larian and this petition presents the development of a turn based system as a BURDEN. You know that Larian has been working exclusively on turn based games for the last seven years, right?
     
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  6. Slaver1 Educated

    Slaver1
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    The fans should cut Larian some slack for the combat system it made its name with in the DOS series, which lead to critical and commercial success for the studio. The points that should be mercilessly hammered home pertain to the cartoonish aesthetics, cutesy writing and pre-ordained 'Origins' characterization that make a mockery of Baldurs Gate. Those are the 'DOS reskin' aspects that make the majority of the BG fandom ill from what I've ascertained. I think combat is one area where Larian should put their spin on things- but they need a serious course correction everywhere else.
     
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  7. a Goat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck

    a Goat
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    As I've said in my thread turn based is retrograde and rtwp is stagnation, therefore they should add advanced limb based real time combat system.
     
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  8. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    DraQ
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    That only ever applied to DOS1 that tried to ape WOW style for some reason. DOS2 departed from that style (and good fucking riddance), if anything a lot of stuff about its aesthetics tries to replicate (quite successfully) aesthetics of some old fantasy art (dem gratuitous cabochons).

    Like Minsc (and Boo)?
    Imoen?
    etc.?

    Like being a bhaalspawn ward of Gorion who was raised in Candlekeep?

    Gaylord III
    Were you born this way or is it an acquired mental deficiency?

    Presumably it also doesn't take into account that large percentage of almost any community consists of complete morons.

    :obviously:

    Yeah, let's not burden fairly successful TB RPG developers with translating TB ruleset into TB mechanics.
    Let's just make them do the easy job of trying to map TB onto RTWP without creating a total clusterfuck (and that's conveniently forgetting that being a clusterfuck is pretty much baked into RTWP in RPG context).
    GENIUS!

    In other news:
    Writing assembler is too hard, let's write a C++ compiler instead!
    :deathclaw:

    Jesus Fucking Christ, you'll probably find average IQ to be higher in Oblivion (or FO3) section of Bethesda's forums than on modern day 'Dex.
     
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  9. thesheeep Arcane Patron

    thesheeep
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    Codex 2012 Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    You know what this petition reminds me of?
    [​IMG]
     
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  10. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    DraQ
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    You know what this petition reminds *me* of?
    [​IMG]
    Wait, it doesn't just remind me of that, it's in fact the exact same thing.
    :smug:
    Show Spoiler
    Could we have all the muh-RTWP's avatards replaced with this pic?
    :philosoraptor:
    Maybe a petition would work?
     
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  11. Elex Arbiter

    Elex
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    Of course critics will focus on the trap argument of the turn based and others problems will be ignored.
     
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  12. Black Arcane

    Black
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    It still hasn't reached even 500 upboats.
     
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  13. ERYFKRAD Barbarian Patron

    ERYFKRAD
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    I'm shocked. Shocked, I say.
     
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  14. Ol' Willy Arcane Zionist Agent

    Ol' Willy
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    Gaylord Fucker, I presume. Exactly the kind of person who would enjoy RTwP combat.
     
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  15. Desiderius Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard Patron

    Desiderius
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    DraQ making sense. What is the world coming to. I’d like to see RTwP, but not from Larian, not really their thing.
     
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  16. Mangoose Arcane Patron

    Mangoose
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    Where's the fucking counter-petition?

    Guess what: There is no real-time with pause. There is real-time and you are allowed to pause when you want. RT is the developer. P is the player. A RTwP game is the developer doing the RT part and then making YOU do the pausing. In other words, RTwP = The developers give you an Real Time game and then force the responsibility of Pausing to the player.

    If they make an RTwP (or well written scripts, which at least BG attempted) where any "Pause" is completely intuitive, I'll consider that, because then the "P" actually is encoded in the "RT" engine/scripting, not human action.

    The only time I like RTwP is playing something like the Total War games, where I may want to change strategy. Note - that means I'm pausing only ever so often in order to make important tactical/strategic decisions. It's literally a time-out, re-work the strategy. That is when pause becomes a beneficial utility for the player. (Though, competitively, I don't think they allow Pause)

    Another problem with RTwP is that you are not just deciding when to Pause for one character, but for everyone in your party. That means you are micromanaging ~6 different people, and your only provided solution is to be pay complete attention to your entire party and get ready to Pause. That's asinine game design.

    If you want to do RTwP "right," then you gotta first have a fundamental structure that minimizes pausing, or even makes it unnecessary. Example: Fucking Starcraft players. RTS have so much more to micromanage than the RTwP, but the good RTSes fundamentally make pausing unnecessary because it provides alternative methods than simply Pause.

    And everyone knows quite well that the best battles in the BG series were mage-vs-mage combat with counterspells and contingencies, none of which require yet another decision on when to Pause. Simply Pause after each action. Essentially, Turn-Based.

    Actually, there is one Real Time option that would be more intuitive in use: Simultaneous turns aka phase-based. I haven't played Numenera so I dunno if they did it well (or did they?), but it was great in Frozen Synapse. I think Door Kickers is like that, also?

    Point is, the RT signifies a Real-Time game, with P describing the incompetence of designing RT-Without-Pause. P is a crutch - in fact, it should be hung from rear-view-mirrors just as Disabled Driver placards.

    Edit: Also, I never bothered with PoE, but the idea of slowing down/speeding up time is seems a malleable idea.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2020
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  17. Mangoose Arcane Patron

    Mangoose
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    Yeah.. No. Turn-based is a system. So is RTwP. There are no retrograde systems - only bandwagon fads, there are just ones we haven't thought of yet, and those are systems to add to the choice of systems.

    Novelty has nothing to do with quality either. Your complaints about retrograding and stagnation rely on the assumption that novelty = quality, a premise yet to be justified before using it as the foundation for the specific argument.
     
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  18. Desiderius Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard Patron

    Desiderius
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    Lol.

    So many tards who’ve never discovered autopause settings on their mouths, let alone the games designed around them.
     
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  19. Mangoose Arcane Patron

    Mangoose
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    No, I have "discovered" them plenty on my I dunno, 2-3 runthroughs of BG (last time my Wild Mage protagonist became a squirrel lol), the milionth times of PST, just never bothered with IWD because I wasn't look for an action-focused game.

    But, hell, I haven't played those games in years, and I could probably list some of those autopause settings (triggers) from the back of my head right now. So, please. It's because I know how those settings were set up that I see how flawed the manner of autopause in said existing games. In fact, IE engine autopause was terrible because it did not cover sufficient actions. In other words, you still had to manually pause every now and then... but because that requires voluntary action, it means I be carefully watching what's going on the whole damn time in case autopause doesn't cover a certain context.

    An autopause system would be acceptable if manually pause is made impossible. This is not about balance, or complexity - this is about playability.

    Secondly, games designed around anything has no bearing on the quality of the final product. I already mentioned several other games that have "more" micromanagement, but done in a way where things can be taken care of on the macro level every so often. I didn't say Pause is bad in several RTS. But in the RPGs that have actually existed, Pause has always manifested as a crutch, no matter how it was designed or what was the intent.

    Thirdly, fucking tactics/strategy genre have made squad games that are real time WITHOUT pause, those being rather hardcore and reliant on covert operation. See: Commandos series.
     
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  20. Mangoose Arcane Patron

    Mangoose
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    Design Real Time well, you don't have to use Pause (unless you consciously are designing a game that perfects RTWP):



    (IMO, it's about finding macromanagement methods to coordinate the necessary micromanagement. Squad systems. Etc. ETc. ETc.)
     
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  21. Ol' Willy Arcane Zionist Agent

    Ol' Willy
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    "I want my RPG to be all actiony, like Diablo, but also I want to pause everything to think it out" is the mindset with which RTwP was born.
     
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  22. Shadenuat Arcane

    Shadenuat
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    Yeah watching all the shuffling with 1 goblin was painful, but sticking 2 systems in 1 game is not a way to go. Larian game with its 3d mechanics and granularity like los measurment needs tb only.

    (I also found it kinda painful how you go into UNDERDARK with some low level party by just jumping into it from what literally looks like tutorial areas.)

    If you want to speed it up, make a petition about removing retarded prep-animations all characters make all the time like to dash you need to wait until character screams like a maniac and glows in grey light. A simple way to prevent player make silly mistakes could be ability to partially cancel characters last action ie rewind it (movement only.)
     
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  23. Shaewaroz Arcane Patron

    Shaewaroz
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    A few years ago I would have preferred RTwP, but we already got Pathfinder: King Kong and two Pillars games, so we aren't starving for good RTwP RPGs anymore. Larian knows how to do turn-based right. Mechanically the game looks pretty promising - I'm mainly concerned about the writing and overall tone of the game. I'd hate to see BG3 turned into a light-hearted theme park like the D:OS games. That's what's going to turn BG3 into a rape if anything.
     
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  24. Desiderius Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard Patron

    Desiderius
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    Nice.

    It's good to finally hear a critique of RTwP from someone intelligent instead of the usual SJW-wannabe on-piling chimpouts. Even you left out any mention of autopause in your original comment, which is bizarre since that's the crux of the issue.

    Are there any autopause settings in P:K that are missing? Seems like they covered about every base to the extent to which I've taken off about half. That along with the frame-by-fame advance button (v default) gets you the best of both worlds tactically. I just find the turn-based too immersion breaking after playing RTwP where I have the choice. I'm aware of great players like Haplo who prefer TB but oddly never hear from them in these debates, such as they are.
     
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  25. Desiderius Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard Patron

    Desiderius
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    Exactly. It's great.

     
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