Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Incline OSR Games - Official thread

Bara

Arcane
Joined
Apr 2, 2018
Messages
1,335
Can someone explain to me why people are choosing Old School Essentials over the original B/X or BECMI rules? Isn't it just cheaper to buy a print copy of the Rules Cyclopedia and be done with it?
Buying anything D&D from DriveThruRPG means more money going to WotC, which we don't want, while buying the old books from eBay or Noble Knight or wherever is expensive as fuck.

Also, as was already said, OSE's layout, as well as its clear, to-the-point writing style, make it much more usable at the table. There's just no comparing it to the horribadly organized BECMI or the big, bulky and WORDY RC.

(I have no experience with the original B/X. I would gladly buy the boxes but they cost far more than I can spend on them.)
There is a version of B/X out there referred to as the 40th Anniversary Omnibus out there if you can find it that combines the red and blue books into one.
The pdf is also print ready and people have used it with lulu to get a physical version.

Though some have mentioned they've had their orders suspended and their accounts deleted for copyright infringement.
Your mileage may very if you bother to go that route.
 

Bara

Arcane
Joined
Apr 2, 2018
Messages
1,335
Legit though I think this is Gavin trying to grab more folks from 5e more than anything else after the OGL fiasco.

Don't now if exalted funeral the one that pushed the idea or not but I dont think it'll pan out the way he wants.

Most all the people who were system jumping I fell are flipping back now that 5e is in the CC now and just be going for third party release now and ditching wotc products if they're to unhappy with wotc.
 
Joined
Feb 14, 2023
Messages
2
Dolmenwood Kickstarter delayed to middle of this year and to be its "own system" but compatible and another version of OSE to be released with work starting on a creative commons version using the 5e SRD as its base in 2024.

Dolmenwood Developments​

February 15, 2023

It's been a very hectic last month, with leaked documents indicating Wizards of the Coast's intent to "deauthorize" the Open Game License, massive public outcry, and then their surprise release of the D&D 5e SRD under an ultra-permissive Creative Commons licence.
The aftermath of these events is still playing out, but like many other publishers, we were forced to reassess our plans and priorities. We considered a lot of contingency plans for a lot of different possible scenarios. In the end, many of the contingency plans proved unnecessary. But one very important one has stuck.
We’ve decided to publish Dolmenwood as a standalone game, rather than as a supplement requiring a separate core rules book (e.g. the Old-School Essentials rules).

Dolmenwood as a Standalone Game​

First up, let’s look at what it means for Dolmenwood to be published as a standalone game:
  • The Dolmenwood Player’s Book will be expanded by about 80 pages (to around 200 pages total), and will include the core game rules, all character classes, and complete spell and equipment lists.
  • The Dolmenwood Campaign Book will be expanded by about 40 pages (to around 450 pages total), and will include full referee guidance and a chapter of all-new Dolmenwood magic items.
  • The Dolmenwood Monster Book will be expanded by about 50 pages (to around 150 pages total), and will include around 60 additional monsters.

Benefits​

While the concept of publishing Dolmenwood as a standalone game first emerged during the “sky is falling in” OGL panic, there are some really major benefits to the idea that made us stick with it.
Flavour: The most exciting benefit for fans of Dolmenwood is that this gives us the freedom to make Dolmenwood more Dolmenwood. Many of the spells, magic items, monsters, and so on will be tailored to the unique flavour of the setting, rather than simply reproducing already familiar material. Also, during the development of Dolmenwood, quite a few ideas were dropped or side-lined because they didn’t fit well with the OSE core rules. Some of these ideas are now being brought back. A good example is the distinction between magic weapons of arcane, fairy, or holy origin, which doesn’t exist in OSE but which plays an important role in Dolmenwood.
Accessibility: Publishing the setting as a complete game (rather than also requiring a separate book of rules) makes it accessible to a far wider audience, including people who don’t already have Old-School Essentials and perhaps have never dipped their toes into old-school gaming before. We’re really excited about this, as we want the fantastic world of Dolmenwood to reach as many players as possible and to hopefully be a great introduction to old-school RPGs.
Timeline: As announced in our previous blog post on the OGL topic, we’ve decided to create a revised, non-OGL edition of Old-School Essentials. Publishing Dolmenwood as a standalone game means that rather than delaying Dolmenwood until the revised OSE is published (which would entail a long wait), we can continue and publish the setting with only a small delay.


How Does This Affect the Timeline?​

A little bit, but nothing major. We had planned to launch the Kickstarter for Dolmenwood in March 2023. We’re now pushing the Kickstarter date back a few months, to around June / July 2023.

What Will the Dolmenwood Rules Look Like?​

Our aim is for the Dolmenwood rules to be comfortably familiar to old-school players, while being accessible to those new to old-school gaming. The general approach we’re taking is:
  • Maintaining strong core rules compatibility with Old-School Essentials and the broader old-school games ecosystem.
  • Streamlining some game mechanics and improving the clarity and consistency of the rules, making the game easier to learn.
  • Building in more guidance for beginners, with a focus on introducing the old-school play style.

How Does This Affect the Revised, Non-OGL OSE?​

Now that the pressure from Wizards of the Coast seems to be off, we plan to continue printing and selling OSE in its current form (under the OGL) for the time being. Then, once Dolmenwood is finished, work will start on the revised, non-OGL version of OSE (perhaps in 2024).
As things currently stand, we’re envisaging basing the revised version of Old-School Essentials on the 5e SRD that’s now released under Creative Commons (rather than on the OGL-released 3e SRD). This will likely require reworking some game elements that aren’t present in the 5e SRD.
It’s possible that some of the new Dolmenwood material may make its way into the revised version of OSE, but that’s something we’ll assess a bit further down the road.
We’re excited to share more news and updates on Dolmenwood as work continues!

I've seen this being posted around around with it being stated this is a summary of some of the changes he's shared with his Patreons
  • different names for the saving throws
  • monster HD is called Level
  • descending Armour is gone, attack bonuses are in
  • All magic weapons are +2, but have more interesting varied natures
  • Treasure Tables are renamed and probably reworked
Not in the patreon so can't confirm anything.

If true I don't get the point of changing monster HD to "Level" now. Even saw some where that he was replacing Save vs Death/Posion with Save vs "Doom"
The term Hit Dice is still in the 5E SRD not for the monsters sure but for the classes yes. That just seems a bit too overcautious if true.

Lack of Thac0 and renaming the treasure tables is going to make plugging together multiple things require conversions and will be a little tedious.

Honestly kinda grateful that OSRIC is keeping their wits about them and not rewriting everything in a attempt to get out of the OGL.
So much so that word was they said if wotc ever tried to stop them from selling OSRIC or take down the PDF they were welcome to sue them.

Also, Gavin's sold OSE in so many versions now if he rewrites and releases a new CC version I do really wonder if people are going to go for it.
Or even back funding the books as much as last time as felt like the core selling point of OSE is "this is exactly like B/X just reformatted."

Would people really be down for a Creative Commons OSE that has less content as they won't use any of the Open Game Content from the OGL?
Also seems to highlight that he intends to rename a bunch of things if he's even changing saving throws and having different level brackets in places like the early days.
I'm an extreme minority here but most of these changes look good to me. I dislike
More news just now

Dolmenwood Core Rules​

February 16, 2023

Following yesterday's announcement about Dolmenwood being a standalone game, I wanted to give some more details about what that looks like from a rules standpoint, compared with B/X / OSE. The reason for each change is explained below, the overall aims being:
  1. To streamline presentation and make the game easier for newcomers to pick up.
  2. To maintain compatibility with OSE and other old-school games.
Caveat: Everything written here is provisional / work in progress.

Core Rules: Mechanical Changes​

Just one. Removing descending Armour Class / THAC0 / the attack matrix.
Reason: Ascending AC is a bit easier for complete newcomers to understand, is much easier to explain, and is already familiar to the vast majority of gamers (via D&D 3, 4, 5 and their associated ecosystems). The standard OSE dual format ("AC 8 [11]") looks arcane and confusing for new players.

Core Rules: Presentation Changes​

Adventuring Skills​

There are a bunch of X-in-6 based skills common to all character classes hidden away in B/X (e.g. listening at doors, searching for traps, the surprise roll, etc). Dolmenwood will present these as a skill system, rather than as ad hoc rolls. There will be 4 skills: Listen, Search, Stealth, Survival. The underlying mechanic for these checks remains the same (i.e. X-in-6 chance of success, with certain races / classes getting an improved chance of success).
Reason: Explaining this "hidden skills system" explicitly makes it easier to understand and apply.

Saving Throw Categories​

Dolmenwood will use slightly different names for the 5 save categories: Doom, Ray, Hold, Blast, Spell. The mechanic for rolling saves remains the same.
  • Doom: Effects that instantly kill or inflict ongoing physical malignities—for example, poison, disease, death magic.
  • Ray: Rapidly moving, directional effects that can be dodged—for example, energy rays, magic wands.
  • Hold: Effects that hinder or prevent movement—for example, paralysis, petrification, falling rocks that may crush or pin characters.
  • Blast: Lethal energy effects that fill a wide area—for example, wyrm breath, explosions.
  • Spell: Potent, directly targeted effects—for example, arcane or holy spells, fairy glamours, magic staves or scrolls.
Reason: This makes the save categories more broadly applicable (e.g. Ray instead of Magic Wand, Blast instead of Breath Attack), which makes them easier to understand and apply.

Movement Rates​

Are noted in a simplified format: "Speed 40", rather than "MR 120' (40')"
Reason: Exploration speed (the "120'" in the example) rarely matters for monsters. It's just noise to include it in all stat blocks.

Hit Dice​

Monster Hit Dice are being reframed as monster Level (to match PC level).
Reason: Hit Dice is an odd term that means pretty much the same as another term that already exists: level. Melding the two terms makes the game easier to understand.

Character Creation: Changes​

Separate Race + Class​

Only the race + class character creation method will be presented. Note that the method of character creation doesn't affect the core game rules in any way. A race-as-class Halfling created using the B/X rules can adventure alongside a race + class Grimalkin Hunter without issue.
Reason: OSE presents two methods of character creation: one based on B/X, the other based on AD&D. The two different methods make sense to people versed in D&D history, but are a really common point of confusion for newcomers. Zoning in on just a single method makes the game much easier to understand. The vast majority of players are already familiar with the race + class option, making it the obvious choice.

Standard Classes​

Dolmenwood will include the standard cleric, fighter, thief, and magic-user classes. (In addition to the following Dolmenwood-specific classes: friar, hunter, knight, minstrel, sorcerer. A total of 9 classes.) Each of the standard classes will have some minor tweaks, tying it in with the setting and/or adding some common house rules. As noted above for races, a standard B/X thief will be able to adventure alongside a Dolmenwood thief without issue, should players wish.
  • Cleric: Can use any type of weapon, but only holy magic weapons. Chooses to be a member of one of 3 Dolmenwood holy orders, each granting a small class ability.
  • Fighter: Gain a combat talent at levels 1, 5, and 10.
  • Magic-user: Use the AD&D style spell book rules (see OSE Advanced Fantasy). Roll or choose from a list of starting spell books. Gain detect magic as an X-in-6 class skill (each attempt takes 1 turn).
  • Thief: Use X-in-6 skills across the board, unified with the general adventuring skills framework. Optional point buy system for skill improvement.
Reason: Cleaning things up a bit, better tying things in with the setting, and adding a few extra abilities to classes that are commonly house ruled.

Referee-Facing Stuff​

Monster #Appearing​

Will be listed in a simplified format. (The exact format isn't yet finalised.)
Reason: The B/X #Appearing format is very weird and confusing.

Treasure Types​

These will be replaced by a new system of letter codes and treasure tables separately listing Coins, Riches (gems, jewellery, art objects), and Magic. Each list will be sorted in order of average value, making it easy to choose a treasure type by looking down the list. (There'll be a 1:1 conversion guide from the B/X treasure types, for those who need it.)
Reason: The B/X treasure types don't follow any kind of pattern, making them difficult to understand and use.

Monster Tags​

Monsters will be listed with "tags" noting their size (small, medium, large), creature type (fairy, undead, animal, etc), and intelligence (mindless, animal, low, etc).
Reason: This simple addition clarifies a lot of other rules, for example which monsters count as "larger than human-sized" for the sake of small characters gaining an AC bonus.

Equipment​

There'll be a bunch of tiny changes and additions here and there, such as:
  • Slow weapons: Removing this rule as virtually no one uses it.
  • Rations: Stating how long rations of each type remain fresh.
  • Crossbows: Making them armour piercing (+2 to attack vs metal armour), to counteract their Reload downside.
  • Battle axes: Now one-handed.
  • Silver: Specifying the cost of making silver weapons of any kind (i.e. not just daggers and arrows).
Reason: Adding useful little details, clearing up minor rules.

Old-School Essentials​

Just to reiterate from yesterday's post: our intent with OSE is as follows:
  • Continue reprinting and publishing the game in its current form.
  • At some point in the future (perhaps 2024?) start work on a revised, non-OGL version. (Despite WOTC's current stance on the OGL v1.0a remaining in place, we feel the best approach in the long run is to move away from it, to avoid potential future rug-pulling attempts.)
  • Whether any of the changes listed above for Dolmenwood may appear in a future revised OSE is as yet undecided.
:decline:


This, is just bad. Like damn he's gutting race-as-class, survival and search skills, monsters having hit dice is to complicated so changing it to levels.

And this stuff might end up being Old-School Essentials 2e.

Welp back to swords and wizardry or just the red and blue books I suppose.

I guess if nothing else OSE will not be synonymous or a stand it for B/X anymore.
I never liked that when people were just talking about B/X they'd keep calling it OSE.
I'm an extreme minority here but most of these changes look good to me.

-I dislike juggling multiple task resolution sub system so streamlining everything to a d6 is a welcomed change.

-Clerics using any type of weapon has always been a house rule of mine (so long as it reflects the clerics diety).

-The crossbow penetration is an idea I've toyed with in the past so I'm glad to see it used here. In most systems they're very underpowered.

-I'm not exactly sure what the slow weapons rule is, but if it's one that makes two handed swords lose initiative to daggers it should be tossed out. If anything the opposite should be the case, as reach is more important.

-I've always disliked the strange saving throw categories of old school d&d, and prefer a universal target number like DCC, crypts and things, or swords amd wizardry. The new categories here seem more consistent and well defined to me.

-I'm indifferent to race as class vs race choosing a class. I prefer human centric sword and sorcery settings anyways.

-Ascending armor class is superior to descending. And removing hit dice in favor of level is fine with me. It's probably a lot easier for new players.

I never bought the OSE products precisely because they were just re releases of od&d + ad&d without any real tune ups to the mechanics or unique spin, really just improved formatting. These new rules, if implemented well, might actually make me switch from Hyperborea 3E to this new edition of OSE.
 

Morblot

Aberrant Member | Star Trek V Apologist
Patron
Joined
Aug 30, 2014
Messages
2,288
Location
Finland
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut
-I'm not exactly sure what the slow weapons rule is, but if it's one that makes two handed swords lose initiative to daggers

It is.

it should be tossed out. If anything the opposite should be the case, as reach is more important.

Just to give you something to think about, I read a blog post once that suggested another way to handle the matter:

1.) Big weapons, such as polearms and 2h swords, are hard to use effectively in constricted spaces (e.g. dungeons) and that's why they act last in such environs.

2.) However, outdoors the situation is reversed; there's ample space, so now big weapons always win initiative.

I thought about adopting this myself but ultimately just ended up tossing the whole weapon speed rule in the name of simplicity. It's not like I ever remembered to use it anyway.

---

After calming down and reading Gavin's (proposed?) changes, I, too, am seeing some stuff I can agree with. But I'm somewhat bitter anyway as I've invested pretty heavily (to the tune of 300 - 400 €) into OSE 1e, plus a few dozen euros on Dolmenwood... and now I have to read how he's changed his mind about both? I can't help feeling a bit cheated.
 

Bara

Arcane
Joined
Apr 2, 2018
Messages
1,335
After calming down and reading Gavin's (proposed?) changes, I, too, am seeing some stuff I can agree with. But I'm somewhat bitter anyway as I've invested pretty heavily (to the tune of 300 - 400 €) into OSE 1e, plus a few dozen euros on Dolmenwood... and now I have to read how he's changed his mind about both? I can't help feeling a bit cheated.

Well he's keeping race as class rules in the appendix section now and apparently in his patreon none of the Dolemwood changes will make it in to OSE 2e when it happens.

So OSE will remain as close as source as it can while Dolmenwood becomes its own thing. Which I can accept.

Still feels that Race as class which I consider to be a great feature of B/X n' BECMI thrown in the back of the book now but okay.

Also as I look over my copy of B/X Omnibus edition I forgot to mention it has all the monsters from every module made during B/X reprinted in it to so its the most complete thing out there.

Everything also been retyped so the font is crisp and clear when printed. Probably my favorite book in my collection along with the RC pod copy and 1e Reprints.
 

Morblot

Aberrant Member | Star Trek V Apologist
Patron
Joined
Aug 30, 2014
Messages
2,288
Location
Finland
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut
So OSE will remain as close as source as it can
We'll see what 2e will be like. But I absolutely hate that there's even talk of 2e already.

while Dolmenwood becomes its own thing. Which I can accept.

I can't. It was supposed to be the campaign setting for OSE. I was going go steal liberally from it to use in my stuff. Now that it's not the same anymore it's useless to me. I can convert whatever systems and monsters from whatever game already; the point was specifically that I wouldn't have to convert anything!
 

Bara

Arcane
Joined
Apr 2, 2018
Messages
1,335
while Dolmenwood becomes its own thing. Which I can accept.

I can't. It was supposed to be the campaign setting for OSE. I was going go steal liberally from it to use in my stuff. Now that it's not the same anymore it's useless to me. I can convert whatever systems and monsters from whatever game already; the point was specifically that I wouldn't have to convert anything!

I feel yeah, I've just been so hard into Mystara it's always felt to be as the setting for B/X and BECMI so I could tolerate this change.
 

Trithne

Erudite
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
1,200
Welp next Without Number kickstarter is up already funded


I wonder if he'll do a cuthulu based game next and call it Horrors Without Number


I do wonder what this will include that Stars doesn't already have. Other than world building tables specific to cyberpunk tropes, but most of what thus would need, stars already has.

I do wonder how he'll fit his fighter-thief-mage class structure in without turning hacking into not-magic, which doesn't feel appropriate to how he generally does things.
 

Morblot

Aberrant Member | Star Trek V Apologist
Patron
Joined
Aug 30, 2014
Messages
2,288
Location
Finland
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut
I do wonder what this will include that Stars doesn't already have. Other than world building tables specific to cyberpunk tropes, but most of what thus would need, stars already has.

I do wonder how he'll fit his fighter-thief-mage class structure in without turning hacking into not-magic, which doesn't feel appropriate to how he generally does things.
Have you checked if he's sharing the version 0.1 (or whatever) of the rules for all to read? IIRC he's more or less always done that, so that one doesn't have pledge blindly. But I might misremember.
 

Bara

Arcane
Joined
Apr 2, 2018
Messages
1,335
Morblot if your keen to find something to be your default setting for B/X / OSE maybe Overlords of Steel which is this guy next planned next project might be one to keep an eye out for. Gods of the Forbidden North still needs to be finished but what I've seen of that project looks promising.

In current news Shadowdark kickstarter seems to be the current big one.


Not sure what made it so enticing and not really that keen on the idea of 1 torch = 1 hour of real world time.
Seems to be a mix of a lot of different things. :|
 

ERYFKRAD

Barbarian
Patron
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
29,714
Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth

Bara

Arcane
Joined
Apr 2, 2018
Messages
1,335
Kickstarter for a new version of Swords and Wizardry to launch soon it seems

If you already own the books so far I just hear the only changes are to the treasure tables to make them better.
The creative commons rules released enough stuff of what they needed that there will be no rewrites of rules.

It'll be nice to have the book in hardcover at last since I missed the prior releases only was able to get a softcover printing.
 

Melan

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 20, 2012
Messages
6,950
Location
Civitas Quinque Ecclesiae, Hungary
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. I helped put crap in Monomyth
Note that there are also two adventures in the kickstarter (one solo and one following the Keep on the Borderlands structure), which you can get as part of the package, but also separately if you prefer.
 

Old One

Arcane
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
3,891
Location
The Great Underground Empire
FWIW, as someone who started playing with the B/X edition (I still have my original books), I was interested in this OSR stuff, so I looked at some BFRPG, then bought the two-book OSE set and then the new Hyperborea books. BFRPG obviously lacks polish, but it's perfectly usable. I can see why people like OSE for it's ease-of-use. It's pretty solid and it would be good for new players. Hyperborea is by far the most interesting though, and the quality of the hardcover books is amazing. It definitely brings back the old AD&D 1st Edition vibe.

I'm interested in the upcoming version of Labyrinth Lord too, just because he's dumping clerics entirely, which I personally think is a huge improvement.
 

Bara

Arcane
Joined
Apr 2, 2018
Messages
1,335
Another No Artpunk contest announced by prince of nothing.

Of interest this is to be high level focused with minimum adventure level starting at 7th.

So one to keep an eye out for your games that hopefully reach that point and past! ;)
 

Bara

Arcane
Joined
Apr 2, 2018
Messages
1,335
So latest two updates of the Swords and Wizardry kickstarter Matt's talking about license he'll use for the game for those curious.

Draft and update on section 11 of draft

In other news X-Crawl finally launched their kickstarter been waiting for this one for a while


Was hoping for a 1980s Running Man ish time period rather than updating it to modern day but eh I'll just move the time period down.
 
Self-Ejected

Netch

Self-Ejected
Joined
Jul 22, 2021
Messages
92
Not sure if there are any of you running B/X / OSE / OD&D based games with persistent worlds (i.e. Arneson/Gygax style campaigns with stables of characters, multiple player groups, persistent time, etc), but if so I have some questions:

1. How do you do your time keeping? I mean this in the literal sense. Do you have a sheet of paper every session where you just mark down each turn one at a time? How do you track/estimate time spent outside of dungeons or during travel?

2. Do you allow PvP? It seems common that back in the early days of D&D players/groups would compete with one another for loot, territory, resources, xp, etc, potentially moreso at higher levels. This being the case, do you allow full on lethal PvP between players? How would you handle a scenario where, let's say, a player takes some downtime in his stronghold and during this time another party of players decides to raid the stronghold for loot. Obviously you can't have them killing a player who isn't even at the table, so do you just poof them out of existence during downtime?

3. It appears that the usual recommendation for worldbuilding is the Gygax method: starting with a town or keep, a big dungeon, and some various small locations around this area, then as the players continue to play expanding from there. However, if you want to build a consistent world, how do you account for players deciding to do something drastic like wanting to sail to another continent? Do you plan out the general continent structure beforehand, or do you develop it organically? This is probably an easy problem to solve but I get really engrossed in making my world feel real/believable and the thought of not having a plan for this makes me anxious.

4. If players are deep in a megadungeon and want to navigate out back to the nearby town/safe area so they can end a session, how do you play out that navigation? Assuming you require players to have a mapper, do you have them explicitly describe the path they take to leave, or do you determine this more generally? Also, if players end a session without being able to leave a dungeon, do you penalize them in some way and how do you ensure they get back to a safe location for downtime?

5. If you have a new group of characters starting, do you start them in the same place as the original group, or do you start them in another part of the world? I imagine since dungeons are persistent that if one group clears out four floors of the local megadungeon the new players won't have much to do, so I wonder how people get around that.
 
Last edited:

Arrowgrab

Arbiter
Joined
Jan 20, 2016
Messages
635
1. The keyword here is "procedures." Any D&D-like system worthy of the "old school" moniker would have procedures, a.k.a. rules, for this sort of thing. For dungeon exploration, you can just make a mark for every ten-minute "turn" on a sheet of paper if you want to keep it simple. The real meat of the idea is that various actions have codified lengths. Searching a room (not "I look behind the curtain," but "we thoroughly search the room") takes, say, 10 minutes. Trying to force, pick or batter down a stuck or locked door - 10 minutes. Torches last, say, 60 minutes, while lanterns twice that long.

You can, of course, make it a bit more fancy if you want to. I've seen DM's make a "DM sheet" which has a few rows of cells which you can tick in as the turns pass, with each row being the lifetime of a lantern. You can also put other stuff on the same sheet, such as an area for marking down the party's marching order, and/or some sort of initiative tracker.

On the larger scale of wilderness travel, it's the same thing: procedures. The system should have rules saying that e.g. travellers on foot can travel X miles/hexes on open ground, Y hexes on moderately difficult terrain (hills, forests), and Z hexes on hard terrain (swamp, mountains). Different numbers for riders. If you have a hex map with a set scale, now you can tell how far the party can travel in a day / half a day / whatever. And then you can just have a separate sheet or booklet, or maybe just use a part of your DM's notebook, to keep track of who travels where and when throughout the campaign - this is especially vital if you're running several groups with several parties in the same world and timeline. You can also use the same notes to keep track of the movement of important NPCs, the progress of various time-sensitive events and the like.

2. The most important thing about this is to sit down and talk about this before you begin the campaign. Make sure everyone is on the same page. PvP often happens in this context: an asshole ("disruptive player") keeps griefing the party. Does dumb shit for da lulz that gets the others in trouble, deliberately sabotages the mission, steals from party members (always shamelessly and without even trying to keep it a secret), causes friendly fire by shooting arrows or casting area-of-effect spells into melee, etc.; when the others complain he just grins and says "I'm just roleplaying my character, this is what he'd do." Then when the other players finally have enough and decide that "what their characters would do" is slit the asshole PC's throat while he's asleep, the guy starts crying to the DM about how the others are griefing him... and the DM steps in and stops the others from "going too far."

My point is, as a DM, you have to decide where you stand on players griefing each others and taking in-character revenge for it. And it's your responsibility to communicate your stance. If your policy is that "non-lethal griefing is okay but I won't let PCs kill each other," then you should say so clearly so your prospective players can go and find a DM who sucks less.

Now, you also referred to the wider-scope question of players getting into domain management and raiding/attacking each other. I don't know how this was done back in the day, specifically, but I would note that this is a rather niche aspect of traditional D&D-style tabletop roleplaying, and is arguably closer to wargaming. (And, of course, D&D grew out of wargaming.) If you're looking for players for a long-term campaign where this might become a relevant question, I would suggest you make it clear from the outset that you intend to explore such special styles and edge cases of tabletop roleplaying.

3. Once again, you're looking for procedures - only this time it's procedures and tried-and-true practices for generating new parts of a gameworld. There's a lot of stuff on this, far more than I'm aware of. Sine Nomine Publishing's games always have rules for this sort of thing, but I don't have much hands-on experience with them. There are also many other options.

Whatever way you do it, the most important thing is to make the players understand that they need to give you proper warning if they want to do something like that. Yes, sandboxes are great, but sitting down to play at the beginning of the session and declaring that "we want to leave the sandbox entirely and travel to another one" just does not fly. It's not an issue with sandbox gaming, it's an issue with inconsiderate players. On a related note, if you end a session with the players planning to explore the Crimson Dungeon of the Doomed Satrap, then next time they suddenly decide to do something completely fucking different (and something you haven't already developed), it's perfectly fine to step in and say "No, guys, you said you were going to do this, I prepared to run this. You can do this, or you can do one of those other two things you've been considering earlier and which I have worked out to a certain detail, but you cannot throw me for such a loop and go do this thing out of the blue. I'm not ChatGPT, I'm not in the business of churning out low-quality crap at a moment's notice." This is fine. It's not "railroading."

4. In an old-school situation, you just play it out. You have the mapper or caller tell you which way they want to go. Every turn (or whenever the procedures call for it), you roll for random encounters, and do those if they happen. One thing I've seen as an alternative, only ever to be used when the game is dragging on way too far into the night, or when something has happened in-game that prevents one or more PCs from returning with the party, is the "Dawn Patrol table." Read about it here, and of course you can make your own. And yes, these tables should be very dangerous. The idea is that the players should be able to expect worse results from relying on the table than from being competent and recognising when to turn around and start heading out.

Specifically in large and megadungeons, this question also taps into dungeon design. Your dungeon could have certain "shortcuts" that, once found, gives the party a relatively quick and safe path of ingress/egress to lower levels. Or maybe they're hard to gain control of (in the middle of hostile territory / guarded by powerful monsters / require a specific item, magic or errand to activate, etc.), but prove very useful once the party gains access. You could also have other, more spacially scattered bottlenecks and level changes, which might be easier to find, but make it harder to get out quickly and safely. This is something you can play with to good effect.

5. If you're starting out separate groups in completely different areas, than you're essentially running two or more completely separate campaigns, since they won't have a way of affecting each other until much later. Even more importantly, you double, triple or whatever the amount of work you need to put into creating dungeons and adventures. Start them in the same general area instead. And yes, if one party finds a certain loot in your megadungeon, the others no longer can. Sucks to be them, they should have been quicker, smarter and more diligent. Mind you, "clearing out floors" is relative. Even a dungeon area with most of the hand-placed monster groups killed would still have random encounters. Also, a good setting is dynamic and alive. You might just decide that new monsters move into the "cleared out" areas. Or maybe other factions in the dungeon take advantage of the possibility to expand their own borders. Or maybe some monsters of that faction fled but will be back later with reinforcements.
 
Last edited:
Self-Ejected

Netch

Self-Ejected
Joined
Jul 22, 2021
Messages
92
1. The keyword here is "procedures." Any D&D-like system worthy of the "old school" moniker would have procedures, a.k.a. rules, for this sort of thing...

Thank you for the thought out, thorough answer, very helpful stuff. Clears up a lot of the confusion I had about this running this sort of game.

I think it's a shame that a lot of these things weren't better documented; it seems that most of the stuff from that era just assumes that people will be familiar with the broader way games were run, so if you want to run this sort of game now it requires a lot of digging through old interviews, forum posts, blogs, etc to get an idea of how the game was actually played.
 
Last edited:

Bara

Arcane
Joined
Apr 2, 2018
Messages
1,335
Another retro-clone though with some changes made and house rules by the Barrowmaze guy.
Guess enough people like his adventures to fund it, art is definitely good if nothing else.


Also on the topic of kickstarters nice to see the Dolemwood one hit over a million so now thats at least two OSR kickstarters (if you count shadow dark) to hit that mark. Neet.

As for actual content the Crawl fanzine for DCC recently released a new issue and which is pretty swell after being gone for so long.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom