KickStarter Pantheon - (Brad "EQ" McQuaid's new MMO)

[francisbaud]

Crafting introduction (with a few minutes of in-game footage)

 

[anvi]

Very Vanguard-ish, I miss that game so much ((

 

[ADL]

 

[anvi]

They are setting up the store to sell pantheon t shirts and mugs and stuff. To test it works they are selling artwork which looks really nice. That picture above not so much but the others are nice. EQ and Pantheon was done by https://www.keithparkinson.com/ who died, but his art still sells.

 

[LizardWizard]

They are setting up the store to sell pantheon t shirts and mugs and stuff. To test it works they are selling artwork which looks really nice. That picture above not so much but the others are nice. EQ and Pantheon was done by https://www.keithparkinson.com/ who died, but his art still sells.

Ah yesh. Can't wait to purchase merch of game that doesn't exist. I'm sure the 25ish active reddit users will will mop this offer up.

 

[anvi]

I don't care what people buy, especially you! I played EQ for 20 years and never bought any merchandise.

 

[LizardWizard]

I played EQ for 20 years

If you actually actually think Pantheon is going to deliver that EQ nostalgia crack you're delusional

 

[Shackleton]

I played EQ for 20 years

If you actually actually think Pantheon is going to deliver that EQ nostalgia crack be released you're delusional

With a heavy heart, FTFY.

 

[anvi]

There are people playing it right now and they aren't selling space ships so... If they don't release it they get nothing. If they release it they get money even if it a buggy unfinished mess.

Also not sure what you think "EQ nostalgia crack" is. I play EQ all the time, I don't need nostalgia. And I've had that EQ crack experience from other games too, that's not impossible to reproduce. Vanguard and Rift was almost better than EQ, still could be with tweaks. In Beta Rift was amazing but they made it easier across the board before release, and then did it again at least once more. Now all the mobs explode at your feet... But the point is you can have the EQ nostalgia feel from other games. The problem is only a few, and they didn't last. No reason there couldn't be more though.

Also EQ had funding from Sony, right from the start, and it was totally cutting edge when it was released. You needed a high end PC to even play it. This little struggling to get off the ground indie game is not this generation's EQ, you would need a billion dollars to do that today. But it might be a remake of EQ in a modern engine and with some new ideas. That would be cool, and the videos show it already looking close. Also both EQ and Vanguard work in the same sort of way, and nothing else works quite like that. So this has a good a chance as anything of being another similar experience to EQ or Vanguard, especially important now seeing as EQ and Vanguard are basically dead now in their proper form.

The questions should be:

1) Will it make beta in 2022?
2) Will they bridge the gap between EQ's grind but efficient use of content, and modern MMOs just throwing everything at you but you being done in a month?
3) Will they fix some of EQ's major problems?
4) Will Brad's style survive without him, or will some decision maker sell out and take the easy option?

 

[LostHisMarbles]

In a moment of idiocy long since surpassed by others, i got me an advisor's pledge ($300) i've by now no interest in using. Am selling it for 100 euro if anyone's interested.
Not the kind of man to do freebies and i've no friends who play games to pass it on to. Am also unwilling to use a game selling site, no way i'm giving my cell phone and all the other private data required to some pimply manchild. I prefer asking here; was a member for quite some time before i asked DU to nuke me, so i thought i'd come and gauge interest. Am thinking this way i get something back, you get a very good deal if that's your thing. Better than a total waste.

Got this right after their failed Kickstarter, ie long before they revamped their pledging system, so it comes with a number of currently unavailable extras, just no longer recall what they are, sorry. You can check their forums for info however.
Some you can see on the actual URL as crossed out (applying for me nonetheless, like the pre-Alpha accesss), others not anymore, but i think they're ingame items they no longer provide.
On top of the usual bullshit they peddle to victims like me, this pledge also comes with an additional key for a second digital account. You can have a look here, under 'Advisor': https://www.pantheonmmo.com/pledge/
The account(s) have had zero playtime obviously, but also zero bans, zero warnings.

As to trust and the usual, not sure what i can say other than mention my past participation here. No longer related to any of this, professional reasons, asked for a nuke, got me a guest account instead. So basically moot as it's all still here, i just cannot login to do this from my old account. Trust DU for the final laugh ^^
Now regarding the transaction assuming an interest:
- Paypal only, money in advance, all of it
- Once in, i let you know i've got it, you give me an email address for me to add in the account and remove mine.
- I send you the password so you can log in and change it to what you will. Change the email again for all i care.

You want any details, post here so i can reply, not sure if i can PM on a brand new account.

 

[Kalarion]

What made you change your mind Aenra? Did you sour on the development process? Just not interested anymore?

 

[LostHisMarbles]

Not much to do with Pantheon per se actually; what i've posted still stands; they managed to turn what was seemingly a clusterfuck into a very respectable game, all the right boxes ticked, actrual gameplay to prove it.

Just me and no longer having an interest in games, the folks that play them/i'd occasionally have to endure, the culture, mentality, or the 2k a pop GPUs needed every odd year.
My connection with RPGs of all kinds was in the end strictly a Codex-related one; had stopped playing for quite some time, just never really had the time or inclination to acknowledge it. But the odd title would pop up and habbit isn't shaken that easy i guess. So i donated. Sorry.. pledged.
Like i said, a moment of idiocy. Plenty of others over the years

My own aside, best wishes to you and everyone else, hope you're having a good one. Or will come launch day.

 

[LizardWizard]

Will it make beta in 2022?

4) Will Brad's style survive without him, or will some decision maker sell out and take the easy option?

They already pretty much admitted to shifting course awhile ago. Inevitably it will continue that way as they keep burning money with the end result of the game compromising to the point where its indistinguishable from any other modern MMO cash grab.

And also hinted basically confirmed a cash shop on Cohh's stream

vs

 

[anvi]

Not much to do with Pantheon per se actually; what i've posted in this thread (as Aenra) still stands; they managed to turn what was seemingly a clusterfuck into a very respectable game, all the right boxes ticked, actrual gameplay to prove it.

Just me and no longer having an interest in games, the folks that play them/i'd occasionally have to endure, the culture, mentality, or the 2k a pop GPUs needed every odd year.
My connection with RPGs of all kinds was in the end strictly a Codex-related one; had stopped playing for quite some time, just never really had the time or inclination to acknowledge it. But the odd title would pop up and habbit isn't shaken that easy i guess. So i donated. Sorry.. pledged.
Like i said, a moment of idiocy. Plenty of others over the years

My own aside, best wishes to you and everyone else, hope you're having a good one. Or will come launch day.

You can get away with much cheaper graphics cards if you stick to 1080p or 2k. The nerdy players are in most games but you can play for the fun of the game and not for the players. I rarely play with other people although I had a few guilds and one was really good. I wouldn't give up on gaming yet, is what I'm saying Most of my best memories from EQ are from things I did solo.

 

[anvi]

Will it make beta in 2022?

4) Will Brad's style survive without him, or will some decision maker sell out and take the easy option?

They already pretty much admitted to shifting course awhile ago. Inevitably it will continue that way as they keep burning money with the end result of the game compromising to the point where its indistinguishable from any other modern MMO cash grab.

And also hinted basically confirmed a cash shop on Cohh's stream

vs

MMO's aren't "cash grabs", they cost a lot to make well and hardly make any profit which is why they are mostly dead. Most of them were designed to have a monthly subscription of about $15 a month which is dirt cheap per hour of fun. And people keep paying each month because they like the game so much and it's such good value.

Cash Shops are a newer thing and they can be huge game ruiner or make no difference, and anything in between. Depends how it is made, depends on the game, and depends on the player. I doubt most people today could even say why it is even a problem. They can even be a good thing but it depends.

 

[ADL]

A lot of these games end up having an "optional" $15/mo sub that gives you currency and various gameplay benefits which I absolutely refuse to subscribe to on principle. If you pay $15/mo you should never see anything related to a cash shop in the game. What I'd like to see a game do is have servers with the cash shop bullshit in them for people who want the buy2play experience and for people who pay the subscription fee, they have separate servers where all the cash shop stuff are in the loot tables and at vendors to earn through gameplay.

 

[Ranselknulf]

Alternatively, make the base game free with a cash shop.

Then offer a $15/month subscription to servers without the cash shop.

 

[anvi]

The problem with cash shops is that it used to be everything someone had in a game, was something they earned themselves. Cosmetic stuff too. I played EQ with some real life friends and a bunch of people we met in the game, and all of us were wearing a patchwork of crap. Cloth with pieces of leather and rusty junk. And everyone we ever met was another newbie too. We played like that for weeks until I got the boat to somewhere new and I saw two higher level players and it amazed me. They were floating, and one had shining steel plate with a 2-hander with flames coming off it.

Newbies would gather to watch a higher level player sometimes. They were fun to see, motivated you to get like that too, and when you do reach that point you got a real feeling of accomplishment. It might only be pixels but when other people are struggling to get things and you get something really good... it feels good. That's what the "crack" addictive thing was driven by. At level 12 ish you are weak and shitty and struggling to get by. Then at level 18 you get a powerful new spell and find a cloak of invisibility. It really motivates you to get to level 25 now where you can see another big leap forward.

A "cash shop" can ruin all this because from the start anyone can look pimped by just buying stuff. GW2 said their shop would only be cosmetic, not sure if they stuck with that all this time. I don't like it but I would go along with it to help them fund the game. I'd prefer to just pay a sub, but whatever. The bigger issue is pay to win which in my day was like 100% zero tolerance. If they sold anything at all that gave any gameplay advantage in any way, then it was pay to win bullshit and the game was no longer legit. That's how most people felt back then. Why put time and effort into building up a character but when little Timmy can come along with his dad's credit card and buy all the best stuff on day one. The games started doing it because Timmy was paying, apparently. But I know most people who were playing MMOs when they were new, hate this whole idea.

The problem is nobody under 40 ish has even seen a 'legit' game so doesn't even know that these sort of things can matter. A new MMO can have all sorts of crap in it from the start and most players don't know any better. Eg: Old EQ = 0 items for sale from the devs. Modern EQ = you can buy xp potions, powerful items, etc... And yet if I go on their forum and say the game "Pay to win" and disgusts me, the majority of players would laugh in my face. I know cuz I tried. They also will argue that it's not pay to win because you can't win Everquest! Duh!!! They deserve their dead game.

 

[Ranselknulf]

Cash shops and such came around because of the problems with the older style mmo systems.

Older style mmo systems were prone to heavy bot farming, and not just of raw resources, but unique creature spawns and all the most valuable equipment. Sure, maybe the first year or two of EQ was the golden era where people were naive and just trying to play.

Soon, the neckbeard players with bots entered the scene and tried to monetize if for themselves.

There was much strife. Once the regular players caught up to the 90 hour a week game players, as is normal when an expansion/game has been out for any period of time, the regular players wanted a shot at the "big creatures" that drop the best loot, but of course the 90 hour a week players had already devised a system to lock down that content so they could monetize it for themselves.

Informal "currency" exchange systems were devised, and much trickery and thievery took place. A lot of it was legitimate, but some was definitely not. Regular players got turned off by the non-stop overly dramatized money schemes of "end-game" and switched to new mmo's and just continued every time that eventuality played itself out.

Now, some people enjoy testing the "strength" of their bot programs and internet connection in a race for that monster spawn who might drop the next item you can sell for $50 to a non-botting fagget, but hey some people don't really consider that a game either.

So, cash shops entered the scene, and somewhat clumsily. At first they were seen as a way to help regular players race to the end game and keep up with the 90 hour a week players. A lot of people, myself included, didn't think this was right, but I certainly see the logic behind why they tried it, plus its extra cash for the company right? It didn't resolve the core issue of botting and people locking down spawns and other virtual resources that could be turned into real cash. Regular players would race to the end and still be locked out of some of the end-game. So, the cash shops started selling overpowered items so the regular players can at least have something, and the game just becomes a joke.

Companies kept trying to find the right "recipe" or for their secret sauce. Eventually, a lot of the companies came to the conclusion that a cash shop with mostly cosmetic items was appropriate, but they would allow players to buy virtual subscription items could be sold in game.

These virtual subscription items would grant a 1-month subscription to whoever had bought them. This resolved some of the thievery and trickery that goes on with the informal currency markets, and gave the 90 hour a week game players a little less to cry about when it comes to fairness.

A lot of games have now adopted this model to allow players to sell "subscription tokens", and heavy instancing to get around the core issue of botting.

My personal opinion is either make a game openly bottable and incorporate that as part of the gameplay, so all players can have access to the same tools. Downfall, a lot of players might not know how to code, but I think thats less of an issue these days with the general knowledge of coding for young fags. Also, people can just copy/pasta good bits of code that are community recommended.

Alternatively, make a game that is small and niche so people will be less likely to bot grab world spawns and such. I think that's what the game this thread is about is going for, but even being niche isn't full protection from bot fags. P99 is a good example of this.

I have seen some games that do a sort of "captcha" test on game characters that appear to be botting, but thats not perfect either. It can annoy regular players.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

cash shops exist because devs are greedy, you don't need to write a thesis on it

 

[anvi]

Pantheon is a much safer bet than any other MMO, because it is a small privately funded indie game that can do what they want. As soon as the funding comes from typical games investors, then they want a cash shop. But the whole point of this game is to cater to that old audience who hates that shit.

Cash shops can be ok or bad or anything in between, you have to judge the final game and the final price. Like years ago I played MTG Online and that was free to play but you had to buy every card... very expensive. Then Hearthstone forced them to adapt and now I play MTG Arena instead which is much cheaper. I don't spend anything because I get cards from just playing casually. But enough people buy stuff that they are making a good profit.

I don't like the idea... but I like the game and it is free for me so I play it, and they are making money. Everyone wins? In an MMO I would have to weigh it up. Like with Rift, I loved that game and paid for a month, but when it went "f2p" it became grind for years or just buy the stuff you want which means potentially infinite cost... If you buy a bunch of stuff and then want more. GW2 however required paying for the game, and that meant the cash shop was cosmetic only. TL-DR- Cash shops are just the capitalist way. Subscriptions or 'buy to play' are the socialist way.

 

[anvi]

Also botters are a whole other subject. It does relate to the cash shop but still, you can design botters out of the game if you care enough. Vanguard did it, but they did lots of great things and that's partly why they died. Microsoft were writing them blank checks to make the best MMO ever, but they were using it to engineer this perfect game... A fun crafting system where mishaps could happen in the process and you had to react. It made crafting fun and stopped botters because the process was different each time. Anyone who liked crafting would have the perfect game. They also had a whole collectable card game inside the MMO where you could play as a diplomat and progress through the levels without having to fight anything. They had secret spells all over the world where you could hunt in a strange region and learn a unique spell from the mobs there. They let us attack individual body parts at one point, and there was a skill synergy system that created interactive bonuses between players if they reacted fast enough. This was built on top of an already amazing combat system and the best class design ever. You could fly your mount at any time, even inside dungeons, no loading screens anywhere in the game, you can just fly or swim across oceans to another continent and there it is. No instancing, you could be deep in a dungeon with 30 people, and above ground might be newbies that can hear you.

The problem was MS were expecting a big flashy WoW killer and they lost their patience because all this development was on stuff that most people couldn't even see. If you log in and do some quests get to level 10 or whatever, you never even saw any of the crafting, never saw any of the multiple groups of people or even a flying mount, never saw any other continents, etc.. They were like where the fuck has my last 10 million gone?! They lost patience and cut the funding and they had to sell out to SOE who quickly patched in some filler quests and then released it buggy and unfinished and about a year too early. That's the problem with MMOs. We could have amazing MMOs, the problem is the business side of all this. A well made MMO is just too much for any small budget teams and the MMO graveyard is proof of that. And big budget teams aren't interested in meticulous game design that creates the ultimate game. They used to be... But now they just use the big budget on some big mainstream hit game that is easy to manufacture.

 

[Ranselknulf]

cash shops exist because devs are greedy, you don't need to write a thesis on it

There is more to it than that, but if you want to reduce the issue to such, then there really isn't a discussion to be had.

 

[ADL]

Here's a quick glimpse into the future of how this game will be covered by 'influencers' who have little to no nostalgia for EQ or that era of MMORPG. Can't disagree. The game's ugly as sin despite them spending almost a decade on it and the combat animations are atrocious and lack any sense of visceral impact. Just two characters in an ugly environment waving stat sticks around.


At least Monsters&Memories has the sense to realize what it is, who it's for and they're able to pump out content like crazy.

 

[anvi]

Judging the graphics is retarded, they don't even have textures on half the world yet...