Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Yosharian]

As an aside, here's what I did with some of these feats in my homebrew in order to make them less shit:

* Improved Critical: if a character takes this feat and uses a weapon with the Keen quality, whenever they roll to confirm a critical hit, they roll with advantage.

* Weapon Focus: every time a character with this feat gains a new iterative attack, the bonus granted by this feat increases by 1.

* Weapon Specialization: every time a character with this feat gains a new iterative attack, the bonus granted by this feat increases by 2.

* Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization: every time you gain a level, you may change the weapon affected by this feat to another weapon that you are proficient with. If you do this, you must also change any pre-requisite feats to the new weapon, as well as any feats that have these feats as pre-requisites.

* Greater Weapon Focus: now grants advantage on attack rolls instead of a +1 bonus.

* Greater Weapon Specialization: now grants advantage on damage rolls instead of a +2 bonus. This only applies to the base damage roll, not additional damage dice. In addition, whenever a 1 is rolled, re-roll the die.

* Shield Focus: every time a character with this feat gains a new iterative attack, the bonus granted by this feat increases by 1. Also grants proficiency in all shields, including tower shields.

* Greater Shield Focus: this feat no longer provides a direct bonus to Shield AC. Instead, it doubles the bonus provided by the Shield Focus feat.

* Shield Specialization: this feat functions as before, except that you may choose a new type of shield each time you gain a level. In addition, you may add your entire shield bonus (including the bonus from Shield Focus and including enhancement bonuses) to your CMD.

* Greater Shield Specialization: this feat functions as before, except that you may choose a new type of shield each time you gain a level. If you do so, you must also change the shield type chosen for Shield Specialization.

 

[Desiderius]

Now that's what I'm talking about! Good work Yosh. Now let's move from Theory-crafting to practice.

(1) Your list is inaccurate. That's the difference between testing shit in the game and theory-crafting. There is no Improved Shield Bash in game. If you Bash with Shield you don't lose AC.
(2) Your infinite Shield spell theory requires (a) playing an Alchemist (b) forgoing all the other valuable buffs he has at lvl one and (c) either burning all your extend rods or resting more often than I'd like, even at higher lvls. My timer is Bard Performances, which is usually 20-25 min.
(3) Single target min/lvl buffs end up being tedious to cast 3/4 times over and over. If you have a Vivi and a Pet that's two already. Big opportunity cost to not just going ahead and playing with a Shield.
(3) There are in fact several Large Shields which beat the Shield spell starting in Lone House at the beginning of Ch 2. The Shield Artisan is up shortly thereafter.
(4) Two-handed is not in fact better than two-weapon if you're playing in a field of +20 dam per hit, and there's no reason not to be. The only reason to go Two-handed is if you're restricted to Standard Actions (say you have a good Move Action ability), don't have enough feats/DEX for Two-weapon, or want the most bang for the buck on AoOs and/or want to use Reach. TWF PA is the way to go all things equal. Crusader alone has the feats to get there (while also keeping it's AC decent enough for melee), which is what makes it viable.

The Feats:

• Heavy Armor Proficiency: I was a big splasher when the game came out, but have slowly come around to the idea getting to the high level shit as fast as possible. There are a couple Heavies I like to have someone around to wear, and if there's no one else you could do worse than getting this at lvl 15, especially if you roll a Dwarf. It's nice on Harrim.
• Improved Shield Bash: it's astonishing that you put this much effort into evaluating a class and don't even bother to make it to the first step of character creation:

Improved Bash not in game.

• Martial Weapon Proficiency: similar to Heavy, bad fit for Crusader since you're aiming for a specific weapon to get that sweet wide crit range for Improved Crit. Just take Exotic and get what you really want.
• Saving Shield: again not in game. C'mon man. Talk tabletop with you PnP buds. I'll leave out the rest of the extra feats.
• Shield Focus: totally agree, complete garbage
• Tower Shield Proficiency: Tower Shields not awful, several great ones in game, but not for bashers.
• Shield Master: the whole class builds toward this (which is bugged currently to give you an extra +4 to hit) and the following
• Bashing Finish: with Brilliant Inspiration (Nobility Domain at lvl 11 if you stay straight Cleric) it triggers 7/16ths of the time which ends up nearly two extra attacks per round by your third iterative on your main.
• Exotic Weapon Proficiency: not a bonus feat, but you're missing the whole point of exotic. It's for getting things you can't get anywhere else. See below for what make's Lion's Claw special.
• Weapon Focus: not a bad early game feat, and it's a prerequisite for many great feats such as Shatter Defenses.
• Greater Weapon Focus: isn't a prerequisite for other feats like its predecessor. Garbage.
• Improved Critical: again, missing the point. You choose the weapon you need to use this to get to 15-20 for Bashing Finish
• Weapon Specialization: outclassed by the sheer quantity of damage boosts in this game unfortunately. Usually a solid feat in these sorts of games. Still, with nine attacks plus AoOs shit adds up
• Greater Weapon Specialization: end up with this at lvl 20. Could do worse.

You use your extra feats for prereqs to get to/get the most out of Shield Master and Bashing Finish. You can use equipment to get the DEX you need. The issue is getting enough feats and giving up beating saves/penetrating resistance is how you free them up in addition to the free feats Crusader provides. Plays a lot like a Vivi, except you get full Channeling, Frightful Aspect, Archon's Aura, Spontaneous Healing, +5 Shield of Faith, a +6/+6 Divine Favor/Power, +4 Magical Vestment, Eaglesoul, Inspiring Command, Greater Heroism, etc, etc...

Lion's Claw (Falcata with 18-20 x3 crit range): to evaluate the benefit of different crit ranges you multiply the range by the multiplier* then add the non-crit range and divide by twenty. So a 20(x2) weapon would be (2 +19)/20 = 105% of normal damage. Lion's Claw with Improved Crit is 15-20 (3) so (18+14)/20 = 32/20 = 160% of normal damage, plus trigger another attack with Bashing Finish with maximum frequency and available by beginning of Ch. 5.

* - multiply by confirmation chance if that's a factor

 

[Yosharian]

Energy drain is cool but it is no implosion. That shit was godly.

Hey Yosh I noticed you updated your PC build to use twin snakes instead of the greataxe also it gets flurry. How does it stack up vs the Monk 11/Pal3/Twohanded fighter I just cleared the game with? I was doing about 50 DMG a hit.

Yeah Implosion was insane.

I decided that the extra (full BAB) attack, combined with the benefit of dealing Force damage (which is quite the advantage against certain enemies) made up for the decrease in crit damage from Vanquisher. Probably Vanquisher will outdamage it in terms of pure damage output, but when you look at effective damage output, especially since you get that extra attack at all stages of the game (whereas Vanquisher only comes in once you loot it), I think it's fine. The thing is, those megacrits are wasted if the monster is almost dead, you know?

How does it stack up against your build... I have no idea. It's primarily an AC tank and saving throw beast, and only secondly a damage dealer.

 

[Yosharian]

If your argument is "I want to play TWF Shield because I can't be bothered to cast one more Shield spell on my tank", then that's your opinion but respectfully I disagree.

If your argument is "the Shield spell is too short to rely on", then that's your opinion but respectfully I disagree.

If your argument is "There's this neat shield that outperforms the Shield spell by a couple of points" then I don't think that's a good reason for an entire character build. Even a +5 Tower Shield is only 5 more points than the spell. Hardly game-breaking. And such a shield would not be available for 90% of the time, unlike the spell.

I don't particularly disagree with your other points. Still think Crusader is a shit archetype.

 

[Desiderius]

If your argument is "I want to play TWF Shield because I can't be bothered to cast one more Shield spell on my tank", then that's your opinion but respectfully I disagree.

If your argument is "the Shield spell is too short to rely on", then that's your opinion but respectfully I disagree.

If your argument is "There's this neat shield that outperforms the Shield spell by a couple of points" then I don't think that's a good reason for an entire character build. Even a +5 Tower Shield is only 5 more points than the spell. Hardly game-breaking. And such a shield would not be available for 90% of the time, unlike the spell.

I don't particularly disagree with your other points. Still think Crusader is a shit archetype.

She's not your tank, she doesn't have Image. She's your hammer. She hits like a truck, especially when you need her to in hard fights with the Cleric self-buffs, and she's a far better use of the Cleric slot than Healbot or shitty Sorc. Beating saves on Unfair requires a boatload of feats far shittier than the ones you refuse to even test here.

You're looking at things too much in a vacuum. The reason for the entire build is to use the best in game Cleric self-buffs to their fullest extent while making the best of a utility class that you pretty much need on your team.

And yeah, Shield spell spam gets old, has a substantial opportunity cost, and you miss out on the utility of the enchantments on the in-game shields.

 

[Yosharian]

Fighter 20
Race: Tiefling (Motherless - Qlippoth-Spawn)
Alignment: NE
Point buy: 20

• STR: 19 (+2) [+5 increase = 22]
  
• DEX: 15
  
• CON: 12
  
• INT: 10 (-2)
  
• WIS: 10 (+2)
  
• CHA: 08

Skills: 2/level

• Athletics: skill checks
  
• Perception: essential skill

Camp role: Guard

Endgame Equipment:

• Main Hand: Blinding Light (+5 Estoc, 18-20x3, chance to Blind on hit)
  
• Offhand: Ravena's Oath (+5 Heavy Shield, 1d6 stacking Bleed on hit)
  
• Armor: Onslaught (+5 Mithral Full Plate, +8 Enh. to Strength, +20 Enh. bonus to move speed)
  
• Belt: Conqueror Wyrm (+8 Enh. to Constitution)
  
• Feet: Owlbear Skin Boots (Slow/Paralyze/Entangle/Difficult Terrain immunity)
  
• Gloves: Gloves of Dueling (+2 to Weapon Training bonus)
  
• Head: Stubborn Head (+4 Enh. to Dexterity, +3 Natural Armor bonus)
  
• Neck: Amulet of Evil Doom (DR 10/Good)
  
• Ring1: Ring of Protection +5 (+5 Deflection bonus to AC)
  
• Ring2: Fortunate Fencer (+2 to melee attack rolls)
  
• Shoulders: Charred Mantle (+6 Resistance to saves, Fear/Confusion immunity)
  
• Wrist: Golden Vision (+2 untyped bonus to saves vs Illusion spells)

Immunities: Slow, Paralyze, Entangle, Difficult Terrain, Fear, Confusion

Buff Spells Breakdown:

• 10 Min/level Buffs: Heroism/Heroic Invocation
  
• Min/level Buffs: Legendary Proportions, Death Ward, Spell Resistance
  
• Round/level Buffs: Displacement/Greater Invisibility, Haste
  
• Other Buffs: Inspire Courage, Inspire Heroics

Feats & Abilities (*: bonus feat, italics: important ability):
L01 Fighter 1: Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting*
L02 Fighter 2: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Estoc)*
L03 Fighter 3: Weapon Focus (Estoc)
L04 Fighter 4: Outflank*
L05 Fighter 5: Dazzling Display
L06 Fighter 6: Shatter Defenses*
L07 Fighter 7: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
L08 Fighter 8: Shield Bash*
L09 Fighter 9: Improved Critical (Estoc)
L10 Fighter 10: Blind-Fight*
L11 Fighter 11: Shield Master
L12 Fighter 12: Bashing Finish*
L13 Fighter 13: Penetrating Strike
L14 Fighter 14: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting*
L15 Fighter 15: Critical Focus
L16 Fighter 16: Greater Penetrating Strike*
L17 Fighter 17: Staggering Critical
L18 Fighter 18: Critical Mastery*
L19 Fighter 19: Sickening Critical or Blinding Critical
L20 Fighter 20: Greater Weapon Specialization (Estoc)*, Weapon Mastery (Estoc)

AC Bonus Breakdown:

• +10: Basic AC bonus
  
• +4: Dexterity bonus [19 Dexterity] (15 base, +4 Enhancement)
  
• +3: Natural Armor bonus [Stubborn Head]
  
• +6: Size bonus to Natural Armor [Legendary Proportions spell]
  
• +5: Enhancement to Natural Armor [Amulet of Natural Armor +5]
  
• +5: Deflection bonus [Ring of Protection +5]
  
• +1: Dodge bonus [Haste spell]
  
• +4: Dodge bonus [15th level Bard Song - Inspire Heroics]
  
• +7: Shield bonus [Ravena's Oath]
  
• +9: Armor bonus [Full Plate]
  
• +5: Enhancement to Armor [Onslaught]
  
• -2: Size penalty [Legendary Proportions spell]
  
• Total Armor Class: 57
  
• Touch Armor Class: 22

Endgame Ability Scores (fully-buffed):

• STR: 38 (24 base +8 Enhancement +6 Legendary Proportions)
  
• DEX: 19 (15 base +4 Enhancement)
  
• CON: 24 (12 base +8 Enhancement +4 Legendary Proportions)
  
• INT: 10 (10 base)
  
• WIS: 10 (10 base)
  
• CHA: 08 (8 base)

 

[NJClaw]

• Shield Slam: bull rushes can be quite useful in PnP, but in a CRPG they're rather useless. I can't bull rush an opponent off a cliff, or into a pit of lava.

Well, you will be able to in Baldur's Gate 3

Sorry for the shitpost, I am actually interested in what you guys are discussing, but I couldn't resist

 

[Desiderius]

Battering Blasting dudes into Acid Pits is one of my favorite things to do with Octavia.

 

[Nerevar]

Tried out the str dual wield vivisectionist it is okay I guess. Soloed bane of the living with and without transformation powerattack is turned on.

Spoiler

The this build probably needs some fine tuning though it has cleaving finish too (and no wings). One really cool thing you can do if you don't need to cast shield is have your level 1 slot full of true strike for use with lesser quickened wands. Also I'm not sure the stats are optimal though.

 

[Desiderius]

Those are both solid Shield Bashers and may well be marginally better than using weapons. Certainly look like fun.

The point of the Crusader build is not the OPest Shield Basher in the game (those builds don't have a constant field of -2 attack/save/AC for all enemies in 20ft either) but the best (at worse a viable) way to leverage the best in game Cleric self-buffs (by doubling them up without sacrificing too much survivability + lategame Bashing Finish) to provide solid action economy for a class which typically struggles with that (i.e. healing in combat, weak DC narrow offensive spells, or plinking ineffectually with an xbow).

Also depends on your group makeup whether you need a solid off-tank good DPS or not.

 

[Pink Eye]

Tried out the str dual wield vivisectionist it is okay I guess. Soloed bane of the living with and without transformation powerattack is turned on.

Spoiler

The this build probably needs some fine tuning though it has cleaving finish too (and no wings). One really cool thing you can do if you don't need to cast shield is have your level 1 slot full of true strike for use with lesser quickened wands. Also I'm not sure the stats are optimal though.

That looks nice, good job.

 

[Nerevar]

Here's the build so far. Looking for input any feats I can shuffle around.

1 Scaled Fist 3 Paladin 16 Vivisectionist
Race: Asimar (Angelkin)

Alignment: LG
STR: 18 (+2) +4
DEX: 14
CON: 12
INT: 14
WIS: 07
CHA: 17 (+2) +1 at level 4

Skills 3 Mobility Max Persuasion and Perception.


Feats & Abilities
L01 Monk 1: Dodge,Cranestyle
L02 Paladin 1:
L03 Paladin 2: Dazzling Display
L04 Paladin 3: Mercy Fatigue
L05 Vivisectionist 1: Outflank
L06 Vivisectionist 2: Feral Mutagen
L07 Vivisectionist 3: Powerattack
L08 Vivisectionist 4: Preserve Organs
L09 Vivisectionist 5: Shatter Defences
L10 Vivisectionist 6: Cornugan Smash
L11 Vivisectionist 7: Wings
L12 Vivisectionist 8: Two Weapon Fighting*
L13 Vivisectionist 9: Improved Two Weapon Fighting*
L14 Vivisectionist 10: Crippling strike
L15 Vivisectionist 11: Greater Two Weapon Fighting*
L16 Vivisectionist 12: Greater Mutagen
L17 Vivisectionist 13: Imp Crit (Whatever you want)
L18 Vivisectionist 14: Mummification
L19 Vivisectionist 15: Crane Wing
L20 Vivisectionist 16: Grand Mutagen

You could replace TWF with Cleave and cleaving finish. Vanquisher or Twinsnakes might be better than using dual wield.

I'm not too sure about this. If I dropped mummification and preserve organs and didn't take Paladin level 3 and got Aldori defender instead for 2 feats and dueling sword. That would give me more feats.

What should I change around here to make it work better?

 

[Desiderius]

Here's the build so far. Looking for input any feats I can shuffle around.

1 Scaled Fist 3 Paladin 16 Vivisectionist
Race: Asimar (Angelkin)

Alignment: LG
STR: 18 (+2) +4
DEX: 14
CON: 12
INT: 14
WIS: 07
CHA: 17 (+2) +1 at level 4

Skills 3 Mobility Max Persuasion and Perception.


Feats & Abilities
L01 Monk 1: Dodge,Cranestyle
L02 Paladin 1:
L03 Paladin 2: Dazzling Display
L04 Paladin 3: Mercy Fatigue
L05 Vivisectionist 1: Outflank
L06 Vivisectionist 2: Feral Mutagen
L07 Vivisectionist 3: Powerattack
L08 Vivisectionist 4: Preserve Organs
L09 Vivisectionist 5: Shatter Defences
L10 Vivisectionist 6: Cornugan Smash
L11 Vivisectionist 7: Wings
L12 Vivisectionist 8: Two Weapon Fighting*
L13 Vivisectionist 9: Improved Two Weapon Fighting*
L14 Vivisectionist 10: Crippling strike
L15 Vivisectionist 11: Greater Two Weapon Fighting*
L16 Vivisectionist 12: Greater Mutagen
L17 Vivisectionist 13: Imp Crit (Whatever you want)
L18 Vivisectionist 14: Mummification
L19 Vivisectionist 15: Crane Wing
L20 Vivisectionist 16: Grand Mutagen

You could replace TWF with Cleave and cleaving finish. Vanquisher or Twinsnakes might be better than using dual wield.

I'm not too sure about this. If I dropped mummification and preserve organs and didn't take Paladin level 3 and got Aldori defender instead for 2 feats and dueling sword. That would give me more feats.

What should I change around here to make it work better?

Greater Mutagen + Legendary + Cleaveage can more or less solo, but you also want Great Cleave and preferably Improved Cleaving Finish if you go that way. You don't necessarily need Shatter then since you don't have iteratives that need help to land.

But yeah, in the fairer direction Sneaks want TWF for more triggers. Likewise Cornugan works better with TWF since you apply your own Demoralize that helps your iteratives land instead of relying on Dirge. Mummification can give you limited protection against Gazes since you don't have Blindfight. I don't use Crane Wing without open hand.

 

[Desiderius]

If you've played alot of TWF, I'd encourage you to play the class as designed by using your Beast Shape spells, especially those with Pounce to compare. You'll find your combat log filling up with your attacks since you can use Pounce to move and get all full attacks.

 

[Pink Eye]

Here's the build so far. Looking for input any feats I can shuffle around.

1 Scaled Fist 3 Paladin 16 Vivisectionist
Race: Asimar (Angelkin)

Alignment: LG
STR: 18 (+2) +4
DEX: 14
CON: 12
INT: 14
WIS: 07
CHA: 17 (+2) +1 at level 4

Skills 3 Mobility Max Persuasion and Perception.


Feats & Abilities
L01 Monk 1: Dodge,Cranestyle
L02 Paladin 1:
L03 Paladin 2: Dazzling Display
L04 Paladin 3: Mercy Fatigue
L05 Vivisectionist 1: Outflank
L06 Vivisectionist 2: Feral Mutagen
L07 Vivisectionist 3: Powerattack
L08 Vivisectionist 4: Preserve Organs
L09 Vivisectionist 5: Shatter Defences
L10 Vivisectionist 6: Cornugan Smash
L11 Vivisectionist 7: Wings
L12 Vivisectionist 8: Two Weapon Fighting*
L13 Vivisectionist 9: Improved Two Weapon Fighting*
L14 Vivisectionist 10: Crippling strike
L15 Vivisectionist 11: Greater Two Weapon Fighting*
L16 Vivisectionist 12: Greater Mutagen
L17 Vivisectionist 13: Imp Crit (Whatever you want)
L18 Vivisectionist 14: Mummification
L19 Vivisectionist 15: Crane Wing
L20 Vivisectionist 16: Grand Mutagen

You could replace TWF with Cleave and cleaving finish. Vanquisher or Twinsnakes might be better than using dual wield.

I'm not too sure about this. If I dropped mummification and preserve organs and didn't take Paladin level 3 and got Aldori defender instead for 2 feats and dueling sword. That would give me more feats.

What should I change around here to make it work better?

If you're going Outflank, you will need combat reflexes.

 

[Desiderius]

If you're going Outflank, you will need combat reflexes.

Not necessarily. One is usually enough. He doesn't need to rely on AoOs like a big two-hander does since he already has so many attacks, and most of the game his DEX won't be that high anyway.

 

[Desiderius]

Beast Shape also saves three feats vs TWF, but you don't get to Smilodon until lvl 16 so that can be a long wait.

 

[Yosharian]

I wouldn't bother with Preserve Organs or Mummification, personally. Crane Wing is supposed to require a free off-hand so it's kind of an exploit.

 

[Pink Eye]

If you're going Outflank, you will need combat reflexes.

Not necessarily. One is usually enough. He doesn't need to rely on AoOs like a big two-hander does since he already has so many attacks, and most of the game his DEX won't be that high anyway.

I am addicted to AoO stacking

 

[Desiderius]

If you're going Outflank, you will need combat reflexes.

Not necessarily. One is usually enough. He doesn't need to rely on AoOs like a big two-hander does since he already has so many attacks, and most of the game his DEX won't be that high anyway.

I am addicted to AoO stacking

Well, this playthrough the mobs aren't making it through the first round of the crit chains. Tristian triggers and Amiri cleans up. But yeah, big fan.

 

[Desiderius]

As usual, testing is a good thing.

Tried to make Jaethal a pouncing tandem tripping Leopard, but:

(a) she's not getting pounce, was Leopard's having pounce just my imagination?

(b) The Feral Mutagen isn't stacking with the Leopard natural attacks. Didn't it use to just add a secondary bite attack? Now it's providing two claws and a bite instead of your equipped weapons.

(c) On the other hand she's a hell of a tripper.

If anyone with more experience with the class could comment, would appreciate it. The sneaks do help the natural attacks do respectable damage.

Also, Jaethal can't be Enlarged since she isn't a Humanoid, nor does Animal Growth work.

 

[Shadenuat]

Undead is not Humanoid, just like Outsider is not Humanoid.

As for pounce, devs probably just forgot. I generally find various shifting in pk and system in general meh compared to good old turn bear = 3 attacks at 18/00 or edwin devouring liches as mustard jelly.

 

[Desiderius]

Undead is not Humanoid, just like Outsider is not Humanoid.

As for pounce, devs probably just forgot. I generally find various shifting in pk and system in general meh compared to good old turn bear = 3 attacks at 18/00 or edwin devouring liches as mustard jelly.

Yes, Feyspeaker Val Grappling that Linnorm in Shambling Mound Wild Shape when I didn't even know that Grapple was in the game was enormously satisfying.

 

[BarbequeMasta]

As someone who's a total scrub wtih druids can you guys explain to me why one would ever pick Animal companion over Animal domain+boon companion on a pure druid?
The animal domain gives you a underleveled companion that you can fix with a feat right?

 

[NJClaw]

As someone who's a total scrub wtih druids can you guys explain to me why one would ever pick Animal companion over Animal domain+boon companion on a pure druid?
The animal domain gives you a underleveled companion that you can fix with a feat right?

There are only two advantages:
- you have your animal companions before level 4 (relevant probably only if you are playing with unfair difficulty);
- you don't waste a feat.

You need to decide if a feat is worth one domain spell slot each level.