Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[oldmanpaco]

Shatter Defenses requires Shaken condition. Start combat with Dirge Lingering to turn it on.

Yeah I get that but does it still work regularly on Hard/Unfair??

 

[Desiderius]

Shatter Defenses requires Shaken condition. Start combat with Dirge Lingering to turn it on.

Yeah I get that but does it still work regularly on Hard/Unfair??

That's what I said. Yes, it does.

 

[Desiderius]

Thanks for the reply. Guess I'll go with a wizard/duelist.

Yeah, Wiz Elf can make a nice one. Most natural fit is Sword Saint if you've played with those. See pic above for one.

 

[oldmanpaco]

Shatter Defenses requires Shaken condition. Start combat with Dirge Lingering to turn it on.

Yeah I get that but does it still work regularly on Hard/Unfair??

That's what I said. Yes, it does.

Alright good to know.

 

[NJClaw]

I'm starting a new playthrough of Kingmaker and I need someone to help me make some choices. Desiderius, I'm asking specifically for your help because, due to your continuous shilling for bards, I want to try one. Consider that I play on hard, not unfair, so I can live with something not as optimized as it could be. I know you hate them, but I also want to try a full mercenaries party.

I'm all set on the rest of the party:
- aasimar Paladin with a single Monk level;
- tiefling Vivisectionist, I still have to decide if it's worth going strength-focus for the added bite attack or if it's just better to stick to dexterity for better AC and easier abilities distribution;
- human Kineticist (earth/fire) with bowling and dreadful carnage;
- human Sylvan Sorcerer;
- a cleric with animal and community domains, but I really could use help with this build: is it worth it to take archery feats? Usually with my clerics I fill my feats slots with Extra Channel and that's it;

The character I need most help with is the Bard:
- are there particular feats I should pick other than Lingering Performance? Is Extra Performance worth it?
- the group already has 4 melee toons (the Paladin, the Alchemist and two animal companions), so I would prefer a ranged Bard: is it too nonoptimal?

 

[Haplo]

Shatter Defenses requires Shaken condition. Start combat with Dirge Lingering to turn it on.

Yeah I get that but does it still work regularly on Hard/Unfair??

That's what I said. Yes, it does.

Alright good to know.

There's no roll on Dirge.
If you're not immune to fear and are in aura radius, you're fucked... so its actually great for Unfair.

 

[Desiderius]

I'm starting a new playthrough of Kingmaker and I need someone to help me make some choices. Desiderius, I'm asking specifically for your help because, due to your continuous shilling for bards, I want to try one. Consider that I play on hard, not unfair, so I can live with something not as optimized as it could be. I know you hate them, but I also want to try a full mercenaries party.

I'm all set on the rest of the party:
- aasimar Paladin with a single Monk level;
- tiefling Vivisectionist, I still have to decide if it's worth going strength-focus for the added bite attack or if it's just better to stick to dexterity for better AC and easier abilities distribution;
- human Kineticist (earth/fire) with bowling and dreadful carnage;
- human Sylvan Sorcerer;
- a cleric with animal and community domains, but I really could use help with this build: is it worth it to take archery feats? Usually with my clerics I fill my feats slots with Extra Channel and that's it;

The character I need most help with is the Bard:
- are there particular feats I should pick other than Lingering Performance? Is Extra Performance worth it?
- the group already has 4 melee toons (the Paladin, the Alchemist and two animal companions), so I would prefer a ranged Bard: is it too nonoptimal?

Hap finally talked me into ranged Bard and it's fine if you're log jammed in melee. Javelins are nice because they keep you in range for your songs and are simple proficiency. You can use Bracers of Archery late to use the busted unique Bows, but then you'll need to position yourself more. Just take the usual ranged feats (including Rapid Fire and Deadly Aim lategame) with Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses. Once you hit lvl 12 with Vitals and Deadly Aim (and all your passive buffs) you'll do fine damage, but your main job is casting AoEs like Slow or devastating single target spells against bosses that only land half the time, which is enough. I don't feel like Spell Focus feats do enough compared to the items you'll find. Extra Performance isn't worth it with once you have Lingering, though it is nice on Linzi at lower levels. Late game you can get Dispel, Greater high enough to really do some work.

Likewise use your Cleric feats making him an effective Reach fighter so your Archon's Aura will stay in range of the mobs. With the team you're putting together you shouldn't need to Channel much at all.

 

[Desiderius]

This is another interesting Cleric option (since you've already got a pet on your Sorc):

 

[Nerevar]

Whelp wrapped up that last battle. The hardest form of the lantern king was the one that can cast the big AOE dispel because it would remove all of the good buffs.

I only managed to win by making everyone stay against the wall and turning off their AI and then just teleporting my monk to focus the boss each time.

Big difficulty spike getting to House at the end of time. It was much much easier for me this playthough even on the harder difficulty. First time I did this area I got frustrated and had to use elemental swarms to beat even trash mobs.

Just need to think of a new character and focus on not messing up my henchmen quests this time and rushing the good things for my characters Ruin ETC maybe there is a guide for that.

Spoiler

Nok nok died and so did Jaethal and then Tristian died too.

I'm thinking 1 Scaled fist/2 Paladin/X Two Handed fighter/Something else? Just so I can have damage to do big numbers.

Character end game stats.

Spoiler

 

[Nerevar]

What does crusader get for losing a domain?

 

[NJClaw]

What does crusader get for losing a domain?

Five feats and access to Fighter feats (like Weapon Specialization), but they also lose one slot for each spells level.

 

[Desiderius]

What does crusader get for losing a domain?

The feats required to Shield Bash. Next to levels feats are the scarcest resource in the game, so three by lvl ten is a lot.

You trade offensive casting for dominant melee presence combining your excellent self-buffs with tons of attacks. I probably wouldn't bother with the Monk Splash if I had it to do over. Human Crusader starts with three feats so can start game with TWF, Shield Bash, and Double Slice if you like.

Weapon Specialization is the worst one.

You get Shield Bash, Weapon Focus (for prereq), and Improved Crit at lvl ten.

 

[Nerevar]

That's really rough. Still medium BAB too. I don't even know what the pathfinder domains do, on NWN it would do cool stuff like give you heal as a lower spell level same with divine power so you could have heal fully slotted on two spell levels.

What domain do you take on this monk 2/ crusader 16? I know community and animal are good but I don't know if they fit into a fighter build.

Crit for 150 on 15-20 looks good too I noticed a few fights on my character I just beat the game with I would have to swap to perfection and the spiked shield for the AC. Where do I get that Falcata?

 

[Desiderius]

That's really rough. Still medium BAB too. I don't even know what the pathfinder domains do, on NWN it would do cool stuff like give you heal as a lower spell level same with divine power so you could have heal fully slotted on two spell levels.

What domain do you take on this monk 2/ crusader 16? I know community and animal are good but I don't know if they fit into a fighter build.

Crit for 150 on 15-20 looks good too I noticed a few fights on my character I just beat the game with I would have to swap to perfection and the spiked shield for the AC. Where do I get that Falcata?

That's Nobility Doman from Abadar.

It's not that bad, you still get full channeling, fast spell progression, and Archon's Aura, which are the important things. Instead of nuking or CCing you're bashing. Very hard. Cleric has best self-buffs in game, and they stack.

Falcata is from Varnhold.

 

[Desiderius]

Nobility also has some sweet Domain spells like Brilliant Inspiration at lvl 11 (usually unique to Bard at 16 at the earliest).

I'll rebuild it tonight with lategame items and post pics.

 

[Nerevar]

The first skill is just like a free heroism? Morale doesn't stack right but the insight will.

The second one looks good though a +2 everything bard song type skill? You can spam it has a tiny duration though. I like the big 1/2 hour buffs and the guarded hearths.

I want to jump on this next playthrough while the iron is hot but I'll need to do one more varnhold playthrough real quick to get the falchion I missed it somehow. For the main campaign I might do turnbased and attempt to join the 0.3% club.

Just need to decide on a character build.

 

[Desiderius]

The first skill is just like a free heroism? Morale doesn't stack right but the insight will.

The second one looks good though a +2 everything bard song type skill? You can spam it has a tiny duration though. I like the big 1/2 hour buffs and the guarded hearths.

I want to jump on this next playthrough while the iron is hot but I'll need to do one more varnhold playthrough real quick to get the falchion I missed it somehow. For the main campaign I might do turnbased and attempt to join the 0.3% club.

Just need to decide on a character build.

Guarded Hearth is one per rest attack and saves only (no AC/skillz), Command is WIS+3 per rest. Big difference. By midgame you get five or six rounds, which should be enough.

 

[Yosharian]

What does crusader get for losing a domain?

Crusader is fucking shit.

 

[Nerevar]

That build he posted has some good AB/AC though and lvl 9 spells.

I think I'm imagining a NWN cleric that can cast divine power and it will give them the same AB as a fighter and they walk around casting implosion with magic resist.

Is there spell mantle on pathfinder? That was a good spell too.

 

[Yosharian]

That build he posted has some good AB/AC though and lvl 9 spells.

I think I'm imagining a NWN cleric that can cast divine power and it will give them the same AB as a fighter and they walk around casting implosion with magic resist.

Is there spell mantle on pathfinder? That was a good spell too.

The problem is that those bonus feats are restricted to feats that are (mostly) shit. The loss of a domain is bad enough, but one less spell per day? Fuck that shit. Just be a normal Cleric and still own just as much.

 

[Nerevar]

I like the idea of it but all it makes me want to do is try to make a STR vivi with Falcata and bashing shield to see what kind of AB/AC that ends up with.

But still level nine spells. Kinda gay that domain spells only let you use one slot you should be able to fill your book with them.

 

[Desiderius]

That build he posted has some good AB/AC though and lvl 9 spells.

I think I'm imagining a NWN cleric that can cast divine power and it will give them the same AB as a fighter and they walk around casting implosion with magic resist.

Is there spell mantle on pathfinder? That was a good spell too.

The problem is that those bonus feats are restricted to feats that are (mostly) shit. The loss of a domain is bad enough, but one less spell per day? Fuck that shit. Just be a normal Cleric and still own just as much.

Evidence, how does it work?

Can always count on Yosh for the Fextralife day or release level takes.

Weapon Focus, Shield Bash, and Improved Crit are all essential feats for Shield Bashing since Bashing Finish triggers on crits and you need Focus to get Shatter to land your bazillion iteratives all beefed up by the best self-buffs in the game.

Meanwhile you're blowing your feats trying to make your 3/4 BAB Cleric a crappy Sorc.

 

[Yosharian]

Heavy Armor Proficiency, Improved Shield Bash, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Saving Shield, Shield Focus, Tower Shield Proficiency, and Weapon Focus*.

10th level: Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Greater Shield Focus, Greater Weapon Focus*, Improved Critical*, Shield Slam, Shield Specialization, and Weapon Specialization*.

20th level:Greater Shield Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization*

Two things I'll establish before diving into individual feats:
1) Alchemist Infusion means you can give everyone who needs it a +4 Shield bonus to AC. For a Level 1 spell. The duration of which starts off relatively short but quickly becomes quite decent. Whether or not this ability is balanced or not is irrelevant - the value of all other abilities must be evaluated on the basis that the Shield AC they bring to the table is effectively useless unless it can surpass the bonus the spell provides.

2) Two-weapon fighting with shields is only a good tactic if Shield AC is useful enough to warrant its use over either traditional TWF or Power Attacking with a 2H. Since TWF is less effective than PA 2H anyway, if Shield AC from an actual shield then becomes redundant because of infused Shield spells, then the whole strategy becomes very underpowered compared to other choices. Shield TWF isn't bad per se, it's just very underwhelming compared to other options. TWF in general becomes sorta competitive if you have access to a bunch of Sneak Attack dice, which the Cleric doesn't get, but once you come up against Damage Reduction, PA 2H starts to pull ahead quite significantly. Also Two-Weapon Rend, which is a really nice TWF feat that helps reduce the gap between TWF and 2H, is missing from Kingmaker.

The shit feats

• Heavy Armor Proficiency: it's really inefficient to spend an entire feat on Heavy Armor in Pathfinder, and HA itself is a dubious value proposition. The only reason it's somewhat decent in Kingmaker is because of Onslaught being so good, buit even so, you should try to pick it up with a multiclass dip instead.
• Improved Shield Bash: it's astonishing that one has to spend an entire feat simply to not lose AC while shield bashing. Good thing Kingmaker doesn't require it, but still.
  
• Martial Weapon Proficiency: again, a very wasteful way to gain this ability. This feat is sometimes necessary, but it's not something you want to spend a feat on unless it's absolutely necessary.
• Saving Shield: absolute trash. +2 Shield is a drop in the ocean. That's before even considering that your ally almost certainly already has a +4 Shield bonus to his AC. That said, this feat isn't even in Kingmaker.
  
• Shield Focus: a feat for +1 AC is appalling value. I'd only get this feat if I had nothing better to get.
• Tower Shield Proficiency: again, not something you want to spend a feat on unless it's absolutely necessary. And Tower Shields are awful.
• Greater Shield Focus: see Shield Focus.
• Shield Slam: bull rushes can be quite useful in PnP, but in a CRPG they're rather useless. I can't bull rush an opponent off a cliff, or into a pit of lava.
  
• Shield Specialization: a pathetic defensive bonus vs crits and a moderate bonus to CMD. Wow. Just what I look for in a feat. If it were implemented in Kingmaker, it would be a poor feat.
• Greater Shield Specialization: the ability to negate a critical hit is quite useful in PnP, where you face a reasonable amount of fights in an adventuring day. In Kingmaker, where you face 10x the normal amount of fights, the amount of incoming crits just makes this really poor. Again, if it were implemented in Kingmaker.

The not-so-shit feats

• Exotic Weapon Proficiency: basically +1-2 damage for a feat. The dimension of this feat changes somewhat when you consider Kingmaker's itemization, so it's not quite so bad. Also there's very few ways to pick up this feat by multiclassing, so sometimes it's needed.
• Weapon Focus: not a bad early game feat, and it's a prerequisite for many great feats such as Shatter Defenses.
• Greater Weapon Focus: I'd only get this feat if I had nothing better to get. It's not so bad, but not great, and isn't a prerequisite for other feats like its predecessor.
• Improved Critical: good feat, but only if you're using a weapon with a good crit range (at least 19-20, preferably 18-20). Also some weapons come with Keen already. Still, one of the better feats in the list.
  
• Weapon Specialization: a reasonably good feat, but again, I'd only get this feat if I had nothing better to get.
• Greater Weapon Specialization: a reasonably good feat, but again, I'd only get this feat if I had nothing better to get.

The two feats that are the best from the whole shield TWF line are:

• Shield Master: you get +2 to attack rolls when you attack with your shield (effectively) and you get to apply your shield's enhancement to attack and damage rolls. This is a great feat for your shield bashing antics.
• Bashing Finish: a free attack with your shield whenever you crit. If your main weapon has a 15-20 crit range then this can be a very nice damage feat, essentially it's 25% chance to get an extra attack every time you attack with your main hand.

And Crusader doesn't get those. It also doesn't get to dive into TWF without the necessary Dex requirements, which Ranger does. Nearly all the best weapons in Kingmaker lack the Agile quality, so if you're looking to maximise damage, you ideally want to have Strength as your main attribute. Having to reach 19 Dexterity isn't a huge deal given the ridiculous magic items Kingmaker hands out, but it's an extra headache you'd rather not have to deal with if your primary stat is Strength. You could even dump Dex to 8 (or 7, if you're a total min-maxer) if you weren't worrying about that 19 Dex requirement and planned on wearing heavy armor, since then the +8 belt brings you up to a very respectable 16 Dex, which is perfect for Onslaught.

And remember you are giving up an entire Domain for this, which could be +2 AC/Attack for the entire team, including pets (Nobility), an utterly broken boss fight spell and tons of extra healing (Community), or a freaking animal companion (Animal). AND you are giving up 1 spell per level which is almost worse than a Fighter 1 dip.

Overall the thing that strikes me most about this is just how bad some of the feats in Pathfinder are, to the point where they are almost trap feats that serve no purpose other than to appeal to role-players who want to 'feel' like they're getting the most out of their shield. If these feats weren't so bad, then by extension the Crusader wouldn't feel so underwhelming.

 

[Yosharian]

The Cleric spell list in Kingmaker at 7th-9th levels:

7th

Arbitrament, Bestow Grace of the Champion, Blasphemy, Cure Serious Wounds (Mass), Create Undead, Destruction, Dictum, Holy Word, Inflict Serious Wounds (Mass), Jolting Portent, Restoration (Greater), Summon Greater Elemental, Summon Monster VII, Umbral Strike, Word of Chaos, Waves of Ecstasy

8th

Angelic Aspect (Greater), Fire Storm, Cloak of Chaos, Cure Critical Wounds (Mass), Death Clutch, Euphoric Tranquility, Frightful Aspect, Holy Aura, Inflict Critical Wounds (Mass), Shield of Law, Stormbolts, Summon Elder Elemental, Summon Monster VIII, Unholy Aura

9th

Energy Drain, Heal (Mass), Overwhelming Presence, Polar Midnight, Summon Monster IX

The key buff spells at each level (from the perspective of a character who hits things in melee):

• Bestow Grace of the Champion: short duration, and the only really decent ability scales off Charisma which isn't likely to be your best stat. Also, not Personal range.
• Greater Angelic Aspect: Evil DR is pretty good in Kingmaker. Immunity to Acid and Cold is situational at best. Electricity and Fire resist 10 is easily achieved with a level 3 spell. Deflection and resistance bonuses should be covered by items already or other spells such as Shield of Faith. The best thing about this spell is the DR, but for an 8th-level spell that's pretty disappointing.
• Cloak of Chaos: almost useless in Kingmaker considering how many chaotic enemies you face.
• Frightful Aspect: a very good spell, however other people on your team probably have it, so it's not necessary for YOU to have it in order to inflict Shaken on enemies, and the other bonuses can be achieved by allies casting Legendary Proportions on you. Spell Resistance can come from the 5th level spell.
  
• Shield of Law: a very nice spell in Kingmaker, but its range isn't Personal, so allies can cast it for you. Also is protective in nature rather than offensive - it doesn't boost your offense other than keeping you safe (which of course means you can deal damage).

That's pretty much it. Personally this doesn't strike me as a very good list for a Cleric looking to become an offensive powerhouse in melee. If you compare these advantages (what little there are) against the alternatives that you get from maining Inquisitor, a class which gets Divine Power (the best Cleric spell for boosting physical damage), there's really no comparison. And Inquisitor also gets triple Judgment, Greater Bane... and if you go Tactical Leader (which you should), you can give your Judgment bonuses to another ally for 1 minute... that's crazy value.

Ultimately the ideal melee Cleric uses a Reach weapon and strikes a balance between "I deal damage in melee" "I cast buffs" and "I heal allies". Trying to focus in one of those areas to the exclusion of the others flies in the face of the class' strengths, in my opinion, and you're better off with a different class if that's your goal.

 

[Nerevar]

Energy drain is cool but it is no implosion. That shit was godly.

Hey Yosh I noticed you updated your PC build to use twin snakes instead of the greataxe also it gets flurry. How does it stack up vs the Monk 11/Pal3/Twohanded fighter I just cleared the game with? I was doing about 50 DMG a hit.