Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Desiderius]

You'll miss the spells from Vivi unless you take Jewb, but Jewb is the best companion so it's probably for the best. I tried a Grenadier MC and it just wasn't the same.

 

[PETEX]

You'll miss the spells from Vivi unless you take Jewb, but Jewb is the best companion so it's probably for the best. I tried a Grenadier MC and it just wasn't the same.

You are right. I really enjoyed Jubi during my last playthrough and the buffs through infusion are nice. The grenades were also excellent. I'll just grab the guy again.

By the way do Vanguard's team buffs stack with Freebooter's Bane/Bond?

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

PETEX I've recently done alot of experimentation between Vivisectionist, Slayer, and 2H Fighter.

The Vivisectionist has more DPS potential, but its heavily reliant on buffs to overcome lower BAB, needs targets being eligible for sneak attack, and blooms late. You may never attain enough experience to get their capstone buffs. The lower BAB progression also delays very important feats like Improved Critical, and diminishes the usefulness of power attack. Their superior saving throws, and access to spells like Displacement and Improved Invisibility are noteworthy though. Spell Resistance is nice too, but far from essential. Sneak Attack is also easy to achieve in PF:KM.

The Slayer can basically do everything a fully buffed Vivisectionist can do, without buffs. Their endgame DPS will be slightly less once the Vivisectionist gets to Level 16 (Level 6 spells+Grand Mutagen), but that's if they ever get that high of level. They also have about half of the sneak attack amount (6d6 vs 10d6). Being able to effectively use Power Attack makes up for some of that, and getting access to Improved Critical several levels earlier is tremendous. The Slayer is going to operate a full strength, all of the time. Studied Target (+Quarry later) is a great bonus, and is inexhaustible. Travelling to different maps is not going to be a burden like it will with the Vivisectionist.

A much harder decision, is between Slayer & 2H Fighter. I still can't decide on that one.

 

[Desiderius]

That's good analysis from you both.

Unfortunately THF sucks when compared to straight Fighter (or Aldori) now that they added the free Weapon Training feats.

If you want to stand in the middle of the fray and straight-up own play Fighter. If you want a focused Assassin who can also give you a much-needed Perception God play Slaya.

If you want stupid make a Cleaving Slayer.

 

[PETEX]

Just a guess but to me it looks like when compared to Fighter, the Slayer dual wielder has easier access to relevant style feats, some sneak dice, studied target and advanced rogue talent, for instance. Fighter on the other hand would wear heavier armor easier, have access to advanced fighter feats, such as armored bravery and then weapon specialization. In case of dual wielding, which I'm looking forward to trying this time on the MC, I'm more inclined to Slayer.

Mr. Maniloquent, in regards to 2h my MC had 10 Freebooter levels and stacked bastard sword dice. It gave access to Lead Blades and Bond/Bane that helped teammates also by buffing AB. If you want to wield big weapons it might be something worth looking into.

 

[Desiderius]

Just a guess but to me it looks like when compared to Fighter, the Slayer dual wielder has easier access to relevant style feats, some sneak dice, studied target and advanced rogue talent, for instance. Fighter on the other hand would wear heavier armor easier, have access to advanced fighter feats, such as armored bravery and then weapon specialization. In case of dual wielding, which I'm looking forward to trying this time on the MC, I'm more inclined to Slayer.

Mr. Maniloquent, in regards to 2h my MC had 10 Freebooter levels and stacked bastard sword dice. It gave access to Lead Blades and Bond/Bane that helped teammates also by buffing AB. If you want to wield big weapons it might be something worth looking into.

Don't forget Duelist Gloves. Once you get those you're good to go for Power Attack too just in time for your first iterative.

Take another look at the Weapon Training feats.

Fighter can dual-wield Falcatas at no penalty. Fighter's Tactics is Inquisitor's Solo Tactics. Trained Initiative. They're all so good.

Yeah, Freebooter 10 is king of all. This discussion is in addition or if you want to add difficulty.

 

[PETEX]

Don't forget Duelist Gloves. Once you get those you're good to go for Power Attack too just in time for your first iterative.

Take another look at the Weapon Training feats.

Fighter can dual-wield Falcatas at no penalty. Fighter's Tactics is Inquisitor's Solo Tactics. Trained Initiative. They're all so good.

Yeah, Freebooter 10 is king of all. This discussion is in addition or if you want to add difficulty.

So I checked and put together a base fighter single classed for 20 levels. And yes, Fighter's Tactics and Trained Initiative looked both good. Effortless enables you to wield two heavy blades without crippling off hand penalties making such build more easily achievable. If spending enough levels you can practically pick all the nice advanced feats. Armor Training allows you to blitz everywhere even in heavy armor and put dex to use.

Dueling Gloves would improve Fighter's weapon training indeed making Power Attack land easier earlier.

I also noticed the feats Penetrating Strike and Greater Penetrating Strike. I was wondering if these feats would also be beneficial in punching through DR especially when dual wielding? These both required heavy Fighter investment.

Fighter 20 capstone would also automatically confirm all critical threats and make double axes x4 criticals. Falcatas would get x4 also. I wonder how powerful that would be.

These got me thinking again, although the advanced rogue talents are really nice for dual wielding also. Guess I'm having similar thoughts with Mr. Malinoquent. Can't say that fighter's goodies and ease of use don't sound good.

 

[Desiderius]

I wonder how powerful that would be.

((4x6 + 14)/20) x2 = 3.8x normal damage, and that's not counting things like triggering AoOs from Outflank.

 

[Yosharian]

You have to get at least one feat from the Menacing style in order to pick up Shatter at level 6 though. You can't just go straight to Shatter.

Pretty sure you just get Power Attack at lvl 2 (or four) then that unlocks Shatter at lvl 6

As long as you get it from the combat style and not as a regular feat, yeah

 

[Yosharian]

I also noticed the feats Penetrating Strike and Greater Penetrating Strike. I was wondering if these feats would also be beneficial in punching through DR especially when dual wielding? These both required heavy Fighter investment.

Unfortunately these abilities are garbage

 

[PETEX]

Unfortunately these abilities are garbage

Do you mean mechanics wise or is 10 DR pen just too little for the feat investment?

 

[Yosharian]

Unfortunately these abilities are garbage

Do you mean mechanics wise or is 10 DR pen just too little for the feat investment?

They're not implemented correctly. They only work for some types of DR (i.e. ones that don't matter). The important types of DR aren't bypassed by this ability. They're utter trash, don't bother. Go for a different class.

 

[Desiderius]

Unfortunately these abilities are garbage

Do you mean mechanics wise or is 10 DR pen just too little for the feat investment?

Both evidently. Game blows through damage-based abilities like DR by midgame.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Unfortunately TWF sucks when compared to straight Fighter (or Aldori) now that they added the free Weapon Training feats.

What's your reasoning? I'm not sure I follow. If you're going to be using 2H weapons, having your weapon training be exclusive to 2H weapons isn't detrimental. Instead of getting bonuses to weapons you'd never use, you get bonuses to Disarm and Sunder. The loss of armor training sucks, but the massive strength and power attack bonuses are potent. Given your affinity for Vital Strike, I would imagine you fond of Overhand Chop. Power Attack + Overhand Chop + Vital Strike should all stack. TWF would get alot out of that with their doubling bonuses.

They're not implemented correctly. They only work for some types of DR (i.e. ones that don't matter). The important types of DR aren't bypassed by this ability. They're utter trash, don't bother. Go for a different class.

Thanks for that. I was thinking it was bugged. I noticed that it wasn't going through DR consistently on my tests. I thought it was a bug. What DR does it work against?

 

[mediocrepoet]

They're not implemented correctly. They only work for some types of DR (i.e. ones that don't matter). The important types of DR aren't bypassed by this ability. They're utter trash, don't bother. Go for a different class.

Thanks for that. I was thinking it was bugged. I noticed that it wasn't going through DR consistently on my tests. I thought it was a bug. What DR does it work against?

Are you sure about this? The only time I noticed it not working is when using a weapon you don't have weapon focus in. Incidentally, the description says it only works for weapons you have weapon focus in, so it seemed to be working properly as far as I could tell.

 

[Desiderius]

What's your reasoning? I'm not sure I follow. If you're going to be using 2H weapons, having your weapon training be exclusive to 2H weapons isn't detrimental. Instead of getting bonuses to weapons you'd never use, you get bonuses to Disarm and Sunder. The loss of armor training sucks, but the massive strength and power attack bonuses are potent. Given your affinity for Vital Strike, I would imagine you fond of Overhand Chop. Power Attack + Overhand Chop + Vital Strike should all stack. TWF would get alot out of that with their doubling bonuses.

Not the Weapon Training itself, the free alternative Weapon Training Feats that THF doesn't get.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

They're not implemented correctly. They only work for some types of DR (i.e. ones that don't matter). The important types of DR aren't bypassed by this ability. They're utter trash, don't bother. Go for a different class.

Thanks for that. I was thinking it was bugged. I noticed that it wasn't going through DR consistently on my tests. I thought it was a bug. What DR does it work against?

Are you sure about this? The only time I noticed it not working is when using a weapon you don't have weapon focus in. Incidentally, the description says it only works for weapons you have weapon focus in, so it seemed to be working properly as far as I could tell.

Tested it out. Penetrating Strike had no effect against a Mite's DR. Uncertain what DR it affects. Possibly bugged.

Not the Weapon Training itself, the free alternative Weapon Training Feats that THF doesn't get.

I built a THF and vanilla Fighter to compare them, differentiating only where the class features factor. I think you may be right about Vanilla fighter being better, but I might be experiencing some bugs, so it's difficult to be certain. Most notably Overhand Chop and Backhand Swing do not appear to be functioning. The UI does not take them in account, so it's difficult to track. Will need to test a little more. Conclusively not working with Vital Strike as it should, though

 

[Yosharian]

I think it only works against DR that's conditional against types of physical, so for example DR 5/Bludgeoning.

 

[Yosharian]

Backswing does work, I've tested it

Works for iteratives and for bonus haste attack. Not for AOOs

 

[Desiderius]

Not for AOOs

That's going to be a problem.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Yosharian I am in agreement about Penetrating Strike. It didn't work on a Nixie either, but did on a skeleton.

Backhand swing does not work for AoOs. It doesn't work for cleaving finishes either. Only plain old iteratives. Deal breaker, I think. Greater Power attack works, but that comes very late and only really adds up to +6 damage by level 20. I think I'd rather have +4 to saves, initiative, AC, and other features, etc. from a vanilla fighter.

 

[Seari]

Man I wish Rend was implemented, I really like the bear form aesthetically. I would totally use a bear companion as well with Thundering Claw.

 

[NJClaw]

Man I wish Rend was implemented, I really like the bear form aesthetically. I would totally use a bear companion as well with Thundering Claw.

Rend IS implemented.

It's not implemented in the correct way, but that's not that big of a problem (it just triggers more often than it should).

 

[Seari]

Rend IS implemented.

It's not implemented in the correct way, but that's not that big of a problem (it just triggers more often than it should).

You're right, I missed it in combat log. Both claw attacks have to hit for it to trigger. Power attack doesn't add damage to it, neither does Thundering Claw. I think I'll stick to smilodon after all.

 

[NJClaw]

Rend IS implemented.

It's not implemented in the correct way, but that's not that big of a problem (it just triggers more often than it should).

You're right, I missed it in combat log. Both claw attacks have to hit for it to trigger. Power attack doesn't add damage to it, neither does Thundering Claw. I think I'll stick to smilodon after all.

Rend triggers if both claws hit (and that's coherent with Pathfinder), however it works even if each claw hits a different enemy (and that shouldn't happen).

One benefit of Rend is that it adds 1.5x the Strength bonus and it also should ignore DR (so the bear could do a tiny bit more damage than the Smilodon against enemies with high DR). But, yeah, the Smilodon is obviously the superior choice, that's painfully true.