Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I did not realize there was a chain of feats behind Vital Strike. Also, more significantly, I experienced a major failure of reading comprehension. I was interpreting it as roll damage twice and use the better roll. Now that I properly understand what Vital Strike (and its improvements) does, I can see its value.

 

[Haplo]

I did not realize there was a chain of feats behind Vital Strike. Also, more significantly, I experienced a major failure of reading comprehension. I was interpreting it as roll damage twice and use the better roll. Now that I properly understand what Vital Strike (and its improvements) does, I can see its value.

Yeah, it can be... rather strong (although here I'm spending AP):

 

[Desiderius]

24d8x3 <= exponential

Interesting that the most overcooked (Sword Saint) and most mailed-in (Eldritch Archer) archetypes are for the same base class (Magus).

Hopefully Owlcat will give us a real Eldritch Archer in Wrath.

 

[Yosharian]

I have to be that guy and just point out that a well-built character can do that much damage (or more) with iterative attacks too! Vital Strike is only better when you have to move and attack. So it's useful if you're using the turn-based mod, or if the character is constantly moving for whatever reason.

 

[boobio]

Guys don't play this sjw game its really bad.

 

[Yosharian]

That's quite interesting because his first complaint is based on a misunderstanding that I also spotted. When you enter the locked room, there are two containers. One of them is the 'loot' which the 'you stole from me!' scene revolves around, the OTHER container contains the key.

I noticed this myself, at first I was like 'huh how do I get the key without looting it?' but then I realised the actual valuable loot that Linzi was referencing was the other container.

 

[Yosharian]

I agree with him about the alignment dialogue problems.

Remarkably popamole of him to not realise that the wererat encounter is optional and thus it's fine to have that encounter as one that 'the players cannot win' as he says.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I have to be that guy and just point out that a well-built character can do that much damage (or more) with iterative attacks too! Vital Strike is only better when you have to move and attack. So it's useful if you're using the turn-based mod, or if the character is constantly moving for whatever reason.

Not just movement though, but ability use, as Desiderius has demonstrated with Free Booters and Slayers, or capitalizing on True Strike like Haplo. There might be some niche use for getting past DR, but I am in overall agreement with you.

 

[PETEX]

What niche does a Slayer fill between say Fighter, Ranger and Vivisectionist? When do you choose Slayer?

 

[Yosharian]

What niche does a Slayer fill between say Fighter, Ranger and Vivisectionist? When do you choose Slayer?

Slayer is a good choice if you really need a Full BAB progression but don't want to take Fighter for whatever reason. The Sneak Dice offer good damage and the bonus feats give you a lot of versatility.

Ultimately if you aren't just dipping, other classes offer more bang for the buck, but if you're just interested in, say, a 2- to 6-level dip, Slayer offers quite good value.

Fighter by comparison has slightly less damage, and because it isn't implemented correctly there's some wonkiness with how valuable the abilities are.

Ranger is much better kept pure to increase animal companion potency and get more spells. It's a much weaker class to dip in and out of. Freebooter is kind of an exception to this though since 4 levels of that gets you some really nice stuff.

Vivisectionist is also a good dip class but it's abilities are a lot more neutered by the low class level - your mutagen is shorter, your spells are less potent and less numerous. Vivi is much better if you get at least 6 levels or more, while Slayer is pretty good even if you only dip into it a bit. It's also medium BAB.

 

[Desiderius]

I have to be that guy and just point out that a well-built character can do that much damage (or more) with iterative attacks too! Vital Strike is only better when you have to move and attack. So it's useful if you're using the turn-based mod, or if the character is constantly moving for whatever reason.

Not really, not 800 per whack. That's a Sword Saint special. The better you get at the game the more often you have to move because shit just dies too fast. Vital Strike/Cleave have the advantage of all the damage happening at once. If you like iteratives I'd just played a ranged toon.

 

[Yosharian]

My main character does more than 800 damage a round with a full iterative attack. More than 900 if I use cute stuff like Perfect Critical (though I'll admit that Vital Strike uses that kind of resource a LOT more efficiently than my build would, so that's one positive for it).

I don't find that I have to move all that much during fights. Mostly stuff comes to me when I rush forward.

As I said, being able to move and attack is more of a striker tactic than a tank tactic.

 

[Desiderius]

What niche does a Slayer fill between say Fighter, Ranger and Vivisectionist? When do you choose Slayer?

Well, my best MC was a Slayer. Here's what your Combat Log looks like on Slayer:

That's at level 11.

Also nice having an MC who can handle Trickery for several reasons. Trapfinding also severely underrated. Can't Critically Miss a skill check, so with high enough Perception you never miss anything.

Didn't even know to be looking so was unbuffed.

Main advantages:

(1) Full BAB. If you haven't played a full BAB MC you owe it to yourself. Everything just goes much more smoothly.

(3) Studied Target. Early game activate then Charge, later let Sneak trigger it or activate as Swift Action. Lets you use Power Attack/Deadly Aim/Piranha Strike whole game.

(2) Combat Style Feats. Lots of goodness without needing prereqs. Only other class which gets it is Ranger.

(3) Advanced Rogue Talents

(4) Trapfinding

Vanguard gets Uncanny Dodge, Vanguard's Bond (team boosts always better than they look), and ability to share Teamwork Feats for bosses.

Spawn Slayer gets (big) bonuses against big stuff, the bigger the better.

 

[Desiderius]

My main character does more than 800 damage a round with a full iterative attack. More than 900 if I use cute stuff like Perfect Critical (though I'll admit that Vital Strike uses that kind of resource a LOT more efficiently than my build would, so that's one positive for it).

I don't find that I have to move all that much during fights. Mostly stuff comes to me when I rush forward.

As I said, being able to move and attack is more of a striker tactic than a tank tactic.

But you're fighting imaginary 10K hp mobs. Real shit dies before you get your third attack off.

 

[Yosharian]

That's fine, I just switch to the nearest target and dump my remaining iteratives into it. As I said, it's my tank, so monsters come to it naturally when it runs into the battlefield, ignoring traps, spells and other dangerous shit with stupidly powerful Pally saves.

Skill checks are not supposed to critically fail in Pathfinder so I don't know why you think Trapfinding does that

Trapfinding
A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.

 

[Yosharian]

Wait Vanguard gets Uncanny Dodge? At what level?

If it's 7th level that's too bad because that's way too late and Vanguard loses a lot of the things that makes Slayer good

In my opinion the Spawn Slayer's 7th level ability is fine, but not that good. The main problem I have is that it boosts your CMB against big bads, but those big bads often are immune to trip anyway. The bonus isn't even that impactful unless it's Gargantuan or larger, and chances are those guys are definitely immune (or functionally immune) to trip.

So I just don't rate that ability, though it's a nice bonus I guess.

The really nice one is the fact that Studied Target gets a flat buff at 5th level vs Large targets, and in exchange you lose swift action Studied Target at level seven which means that Slayer dips of 6th level or less get a straight up buff for no loss. And how often do we actually manually activate Study Target anyway, not that often.

 

[Desiderius]

That's fine, I just switch to the nearest target and dump my remaining iteratives into it. As I said, it's my tank, so monsters come to it naturally when it runs into the battlefield, ignoring traps, spells and other dangerous shit with stupidly powerful Pally saves.

Skill checks are not supposed to critically fail in Pathfinder so I don't know why you think Trapfinding does that

No, the point is that your skills get so high that you're autopass, which is different than attacking/defending that can always critically fail. So for skills the payoff is bigger for going off.

Unless your nearest target is five feet away or less, you're burning a turn to do that. Ranged doesn't have to. Mobs don't have time to all come to you if you're actively taking them out before they can do bad things.

 

[Desiderius]

Wait Vanguard gets Uncanny Dodge? At what level?

If it's 7th level that's too bad because that's way too late and Vanguard loses a lot of the things that makes Slayer good

In my opinion the Spawn Slayer's 7th level ability is fine, but not that good. The main problem I have is that it boosts your CMB against big bads, but those big bads often are immune to trip anyway. The bonus isn't even that impactful unless it's Gargantuan or larger, and chances are those guys are definitely immune (or functionally immune) to trip.

So I just don't rate that ability, though it's a nice bonus I guess.

The really nice one is the fact that Studied Target gets a flat buff at 5th level vs Large targets, and in exchange you lose swift action Studied Target at level seven which means that Slayer dips of 6th level or less get a straight up buff for no loss. And how often do we actually manually activate Study Target anyway, not that often.

7th level isn't too late. Early game you're using Studied Target to delay a beat until mobs are engaged. Then once your Uncanny Dodge comes online you switch to Charges to turn on Studied Target since you've had time to get your AC up and you don't have to worry about being ambushed on the first round. Timing is perfect.

I'd never splash less than ten levels. Slayer 10 is one of the best levels in the game. I'd go Dirty Trick for Spawn Slayer so you can use it on everything. Blind is OP. You also get a significant bonus to your Studied Target that scales with size (to help you hit Bokken or Ithuliak for instance).

What does Vanguard lose? Sharing Teamwork feats is clunky but gets good late and Bond is another stacking group buff. Unfortunately with the way the rounding works it doesn't hit +2/+2 until lvl 15, but it's infinite use, stacking, and +1/+1 right away.

 

[PETEX]

Slayer is a good choice if you really need a Full BAB progression but don't want to take Fighter for whatever reason. The Sneak Dice offer good damage and the bonus feats give you a lot of versatility.

Ultimately if you aren't just dipping, other classes offer more bang for the buck, but if you're just interested in, say, a 2- to 6-level dip, Slayer offers quite good value.

Fighter by comparison has slightly less damage, and because it isn't implemented correctly there's some wonkiness with how valuable the abilities are.

Ranger is much better kept pure to increase animal companion potency and get more spells. It's a much weaker class to dip in and out of. Freebooter is kind of an exception to this though since 4 levels of that gets you some really nice stuff.

Vivisectionist is also a good dip class but it's abilities are a lot more neutered by the low class level - your mutagen is shorter, your spells are less potent and less numerous. Vivi is much better if you get at least 6 levels or more, while Slayer is pretty good even if you only dip into it a bit. It's also medium BAB.

I was setting up different builds and looking into whether Slayer could compete with Vivisectionist as a base for STR TWF but it seems like the Slayer would be both harder to keep alive and would hit for less. Altough I wonder how useful would the Slayer's ability be to skip combat style prerequisites and the power of Studied Target if single classed.

7th level isn't too late. Early game you're using Studied Target to delay a beat until mobs are engaged. Then once your Uncanny Dodge comes online you switch to Charges to turn on Studied Target since you've had time to get your AC up and you don't have to worry about being ambushed on the first round. Timing is perfect.

I'd never splash less than ten levels. Slayer 10 is one of the best levels in the game. I'd go Dirty Trick for Spawn Slayer so you can use it on everything. Blind is OP. You also get a significant bonus to your Studied Target that scales with size (to help you hit Bokken or Ithuliak for instance).

What does Vanguard lose? Sharing Teamwork feats is clunky but gets good late and Bond is another stacking group buff. Unfortunately with the way the rounding works it doesn't hit +2/+2 until lvl 15, but it's infinite use, stacking, and +1/+1 right away.

How do you feel about Deliverer Slayer and Divine Anathema at level 10?

 

[Yosharian]

Ability to skip pre-reqs... Not too useful for TWF due to Kingmaker's insane magic items. It's pretty good for obtaining Cleaving Finish, though. Studied Target is ok.

Deliverer is astonishingly bad. Stick with standard Slayer or Spawn Slayer. Vanguard could work I guess.

 

[Desiderius]

I was setting up different builds and looking into whether Slayer could compete with Vivisectionist as a base for STR TWF but it seems like the Slayer would be both harder to keep alive and would hit for less. Altough I wonder how useful would the Slayer's ability be to skip combat style prerequisites and the power of Studied Target if single classed.

No, Slayer does way more damage. Vivi gives you spell utility in exchange (and a bite attack if you're into that).

With full BAB and Studied Target Slayer can afford to use Power Attack the whole game.

Mutagen gets you a little extra AC, but neither one is tanking or anything without Image. I like Vanguard for melee Slayer so Uncanny Dodge gives Slayer the edge if you've got Jub for the spells.

Combat Style lets you get your TWF feats without needing the DEX. Big DEX items don't start showing up until you're lvl 13 or 14 unless you get lucky with an artisan, while Slayer can have six attacks by lvl 11 (seven with Haste). Vivi also needs to worry more about INT than Slayer.

Alternatively, you can use Menace combat style to get Shatter Defenses without Focus or Dazzling Display.

Trapfinding is great utility.

 

[Cyberarmy]

With full BAB and Studied Target Slayer can afford to use Power Attack the whole game.

Did that with my latest character and he was a beast. Seriously Slayer is all in one pack.

 

[Yosharian]

You have to get at least one feat from the Menacing style in order to pick up Shatter at level 6 though. You can't just go straight to Shatter.

 

[Desiderius]

You have to get at least one feat from the Menacing style in order to pick up Shatter at level 6 though. You can't just go straight to Shatter.

Pretty sure you just get Power Attack at lvl 2 (or four) then that unlocks Shatter at lvl 6

 

[PETEX]

Holy crap. Guess I'll experiment with either Spawn Slayer or Vanguard and try full BAB. Uncanny Dodge might favor the Vanguard indeed in melee.