Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Yosharian]

My first question would be, why are you using a CHA-dumped build to perform Demoralise on enemies.

With Intimidating Prowess. That's like at least +15 Intimidate from Str alone, probably more.
The 5 from Cha he's not gaining really isn't a huge deal.

It's a +15 mid- to late-game when he's rocking a +8 belt. By which time it doesn't matter anyway because Frightful Aspect.

 

[Yosharian]

I just did some more testing and noticed that my trip CMB bonus was a little less than in my previous tests. Strange, I thinks to myself.

Anyway after some checking I've confirmed that the Fighter's Weapon Training bonus IS being applied to CMB - just not with the Two-Handed Fighter variant. Seems like they work that variant's Weapon Training differently, and whatever the code is under the hood, it isn't getting applied to CMB, while the standard Fighter's is.

Kinda sucks because my new build was using the Two-Handed Fighter and now I have to go back to the drawing board - or lose the +3 to my Trip CMBs. Dammit Owlcat.

 

[Haplo]

My first question would be, why are you using a CHA-dumped build to perform Demoralise on enemies.

With Intimidating Prowess. That's like at least +15 Intimidate from Str alone, probably more.
The 5 from Cha he's not gaining really isn't a huge deal.

It's a +15 mid- to late-game when he's rocking a +8 belt. By which time it doesn't matter anyway because Frightful Aspect.

He shouldn't use manual Dazzling Display at early levels much anyways. It was good on release, but now it's too slow as a Full Round Action.

 

[Haplo]

I just did some more testing and noticed that my trip CMB bonus was a little less than in my previous tests. Strange, I thinks to myself.

Anyway after some checking I've confirmed that the Fighter's Weapon Training bonus IS being applied to CMB - just not with the Two-Handed Fighter variant. Seems like they work that variant's Weapon Training differently, and whatever the code is under the hood, it isn't getting applied to CMB, while the standard Fighter's is.

Kinda sucks because my new build was using the Two-Handed Fighter and now I have to go back to the drawing board - or lose the +3 to my Trip CMBs. Dammit Owlcat.

Ah, yes, I remember. This, lack of Advanced Training options and lack of Armor Training really does make the THF archetype inferior (except for dipping maybe).

 

[Seari]

This seems good. How about adding a single Sword Saint level in the middle instead of Fighter at the back and pick the weapon type there? I saw something similar in Haplok's Vivi build. Also are the Archaelogist/DD levels better than additional Vivi levels?

Thank you for the responses.

As a character concept I hate Sword Saint dip, but you can do it of course. It's a matter of preference, bard dip is just a way to get some defense. Nothing wrong with your build btw, if you follow Haplo's advice.

I just noticed that you need martial prof to use Double Axes, I'll change the build a bit.

 

[Yosharian]

I just did some more testing and noticed that my trip CMB bonus was a little less than in my previous tests. Strange, I thinks to myself.

Anyway after some checking I've confirmed that the Fighter's Weapon Training bonus IS being applied to CMB - just not with the Two-Handed Fighter variant. Seems like they work that variant's Weapon Training differently, and whatever the code is under the hood, it isn't getting applied to CMB, while the standard Fighter's is.

Kinda sucks because my new build was using the Two-Handed Fighter and now I have to go back to the drawing board - or lose the +3 to my Trip CMBs. Dammit Owlcat.

Ah, yes, I remember. This, lack of Advanced Training options and lack of Armor Training really does make the THF archetype inferior (except for dipping maybe).

Yes but a monk tank doesn't need the armor training and my build could make great use of Backswing and the CMB bonus.. if it worked. It fucking sucks.

 

[Haplo]

This seems good. How about adding a single Sword Saint level in the middle instead of Fighter at the back and pick the weapon type there? I saw something similar in Haplok's Vivi build. Also are the Archaelogist/DD levels better than additional Vivi levels?

Thank you for the responses.

As a character concept I hate Sword Saint dip, but you can do it of course. It's a matter of preference, bard dip is just a way to get some defense.

Well, Uncanny Dodge and Mirror Image are kinda big. You also get +1 Bite, permanent stats & AC.
But getting Vivi to 16 has its perks also, so...

 

[PETEX]

There's a test for that here:

https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.p...rom-owlcat-games.125267/page-630#post-6630954

Two-bladed weapons aren't the easiest to manage, but when you get there they combine the best of both worlds between two-weapon and two-handed.

Well that looks really powerful to me. Do you have any additional advice regarding the necessary feats/classes to achieve what you had in screenshots (I noticed you had two Barbarian levels) or is mine/Seari's framework fine? Also do you have a preference between double axes and two-bladed swords?

It'll work, it's just not super effective until your STR score gets big. The point of that feat is to double-dip on ability score bonuses, not to replace a non-existent CHA bonus.

That said, Hap's right when he says it'll probably be OK. I just don't think it's very efficient to invest in these feats long-term when Frightful Aspect on a support Cleric gets it done instantly, no-save, min-per-level duration.

Two-bladed sword is 19-20/x2 for an Exotic feat. That's flat-out worse than weapons you can already equip. Yes there's added efficiency from having one weapon as the source of all your damage, but I'm not certain it's worth a feat, especially considering there are other things you should be picking up at that level (see Hap's comment).

Double weapons do not receive 1.5x STR modifiers. They are considered light off-hand, but that's irrelevant, there are decent off-hand weapons that don't require a feat.

Frankly depending on your team setup TWF might not be the best choice. For starters you need someone wielding Vanquisher - if you haven't got that, then ditch the TWF and go for greataxe instead.

Faterender is rather decent, but any kind of DR reduces its damage significantly. Twin Crystals is good for piercing DR but aside from that is rather boring and isn't going to be superior to a lot of the other weapons you could wield.

You want to pick your weapon type early to get access to Shatter Defenses in a timely manner, but unless you're a Sword Saint there's nothing stopping you from simply using another weapon in the meantime regardless of your Weapon Focus feat.

Martial proficiency gets you longsword and shortsword, Allslayer is one of the best off-handers and there are a couple of amazing longswords. That's what I'd go for, and in the meantime while waiting for the best in slot items to show up, you can use whatever best items you have since martial gives you proficiency in tons of weapons.

Good points regarding CHA. Yeah I'm familiar with greataxes and aware of Vanquisher in particular and I'll generally have a two hander somewhere in my party. It's just I'm looking into trying a two weapon character in particular for the next playthrough. Also that weapon combination (Redeemer/Allslayer) seems really powerful. Something to consider regarding the use of martial weapons.

As a character concept I hate Sword Saint dip, but you can do it of course. It's a matter of preference, bard dip is just a way to get some defense. Nothing wrong with your build btw, if you follow Haplo's advice.

I just noticed that you need martial prof to use Double Axes, I'll change the build a bit.

Thank you for taking the time and providing helpful framework!

Well, Uncanny Dodge and Mirror Image are kinda big. You also get +1 Bite, permanent stats & AC.
But getting Vivi to 16 has its perks also, so...

I'd try to tempo Shatter Defenses to get it around level 9-10.
Oh and Outflank should be at level 5!

If its Alchemist 16, why don't you have Grand Mutagen?
Also I'd really want Crippling Strike Advanced Talent in there.

Expendable feats IMO include Dodge and Accomplished Sneak Attacker.

Thank you for help and suggestions! In the case of Dodge if feel like it would really help especially early game.

 

[Desiderius]

My first question would be, why are you using a CHA-dumped build to perform Demoralise on enemies.

Yeah it might only work later on the game or not even be worth it.

Either way Twin-Bladed Sword is not a very good weapon to throw away an Exotic feat on, and Half-Orc is just a trash race.

Which weapon type would you rather choose for twf str build? Double axe but with Motherless Tiefling or human? Double weapon would be 1.5 str and are light off hand so lesser penalties if I'm not mistaken. Seems good for str stacking twf even though the availability is limited.

You either go non orc and go for Twin Crystals or you go orc and use Faterender, whichever you prefer. Also orc saves you a feat, since you don't need exotic. If you go non orc you'll probably have to cut Accomplished Sneak Attacker for Exotic.

If I were to make a build around two bladed weapons it would be something like this:

Scaled Fist 1/Alchemist 12/Archeologist 2/Dragon Disciple 4

Fuck the demoralize feats, you can't afford them and they are a waste. Just take a proper bard with you with Dirge.

This seems good. How about adding a single Sword Saint level in the middle instead of Fighter at the back and pick the weapon type there? I saw something similar in Haplok's Vivi build. Also are the Archaelogist/DD levels better than additional Vivi levels?

Thank you for the responses.

It'll work, it's just not super effective until your STR score gets big. The point of that feat is to double-dip on ability score bonuses, not to replace a non-existent CHA bonus.

That said, Hap's right when he says it'll probably be OK. I just don't think it's very efficient to invest in these feats long-term when Frightful Aspect on a support Cleric gets it done instantly, no-save, min-per-level duration.

Two-bladed sword is 19-20/x2 for an Exotic feat. That's flat-out worse than weapons you can already equip. Yes there's added efficiency from having one weapon as the source of all your damage, but I'm not certain it's worth a feat, especially considering there are other things you should be picking up at that level (see Hap's comment).

Double weapons do not receive 1.5x STR modifiers. They are considered light off-hand, but that's irrelevant, there are decent off-hand weapons that don't require a feat.

Frankly depending on your team setup TWF might not be the best choice. For starters you need someone wielding Vanquisher - if you haven't got that, then ditch the TWF and go for greataxe instead.

Faterender is rather decent, but any kind of DR reduces its damage significantly. Twin Crystals is good for piercing DR but aside from that is rather boring and isn't going to be superior to a lot of the other weapons you could wield.

You want to pick your weapon type early to get access to Shatter Defenses in a timely manner, but unless you're a Sword Saint there's nothing stopping you from simply using another weapon in the meantime regardless of your Weapon Focus feat.

Martial proficiency gets you longsword and shortsword, Allslayer is one of the best off-handers and there are a couple of amazing longswords. That's what I'd go for, and in the meantime while waiting for the best in slot items to show up, you can use whatever best items you have since martial gives you proficiency in tons of weapons.

^
|

Great summary of relevant issues. Are we sure Two-Bladed weaps aren't getting 1.5 on STR/PA? Still do get (slightly) bigger dice.

 

[Desiderius]

Early game (lvl 4 Unfair) Double=Axe build:

 

[Desiderius]

He shouldn't use manual Dazzling Display at early levels much anyways. It was good on release, but now it's too slow as a Full Round Action.

It's fun to open combat with from Stealth, especially if you Thug it up.

 

[Desiderius]

Well that looks really powerful to me. Do you have any additional advice regarding the necessary feats/classes to achieve what you had in screenshots (I noticed you had two Barbarian levels) or is mine/Seari's framework fine? Also do you have a preference between double axes and two-bladed swords?

In the case of Dodge if feel like it would really help especially early game.

+1 AC is a drop in the ocean. It's about Opportunity cost (what you're giving up to get the one AC).

Barb 2 gets you Martial Proficiency, another Bite (while Raging, if you're into that), Some Rage, Speed (i.e. larger Charge range), and Uncanny Dodge.

Everybody builds the cool Vivi starting out, but it's not like you're breaking the game or anything. I've found iteratives (including bites) to be overrated. Feel free to experiment with what works for you.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I've been experimenting with polearm builds. I've reached a bit of an impasse on what I want to do. The combat maneuvers seem like window dressing once you've got improved critical. I like the feat (adv. rogue talents), skill points, certain infusions/spells (displacement, greater invis.), and sneaks from the Vivisectionist, but they feel feast or famine when relying on their buffs. 'Roided out on buffs, they are impressive, but the structure of the game is punitive to characters that rest alot. The most significant buffs don't develop to late game though, and the limited BAB also delays some important feats. Reliance on "menace" type feats of getting flat-footed status also is quite a tax.

Right now I'm torn between 2:18 Paladin:Slayer vs 2:18 Paladin:2H Fighter. Both have lesser damage output than Vivsectionist, but are far less fiddly, better AB, and swim in feats. Slayer has access to limited sneaks, rogue talents (love), more skills, and better saves. It still makes it reliant on imposing conditions to work efficiently though. 2H Fighter's saves or only slightly less, but the loss of Crippling and Opportunist are felt. The class features also give damage bonuses that approach all those sneak die, and are good against everything without having to bother with conditions, studied target, or quarry. The DR is pretty great too. They're both so close, that it's a tough call.

 

[Haplo]

Well that looks really powerful to me. Do you have any additional advice regarding the necessary feats/classes to achieve what you had in screenshots (I noticed you had two Barbarian levels) or is mine/Seari's framework fine? Also do you have a preference between double axes and two-bladed swords?

In the case of Dodge if feel like it would really help especially early game.

+1 AC is a drop in the ocean. It's about Opportunity cost (what you're giving up to get the one AC).

Barb 2 gets you Martial Proficiency, another Bite (while Raging, if you're into that), Some Rage, Speed (i.e. larger Charge range), and Uncanny Dodge.

Everybody builds the cool Vivi starting out, but it's not like you're breaking the game or anything. I've found iteratives (including bites) to be overrated. Feel free to experiment with what works for you.

Barb isn't (easily) compatible with Monk, though.

 

[Desiderius]

Both have lesser damage output than Vivsectionist

Sneaks pale in comparison to Haploing. On the other hand, Sneaks are a more fair and balanced way to play the game.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Both have lesser damage output than Vivsectionist

Sneaks pale in comparison to Haploing. On the other hand, Sneaks are a more fair and balanced way to play the game.

I've seen impressive screenshots from Haplo in the past, but I'm not euphemistically familiar with his methods. Do you care to elaborate? My character concept was a reach combatant that could duo with Valerie as a tank. DPS over her shoulder, AoO oriented, with Combat Manuevers to support the tank, as well as tackle any boss/superior foes. Good saves are important to me, which is where the Paladin splash comes in.

 

[amurath]

W

I've been experimenting with polearm builds. I've reached a bit of an impasse on what I want to do. The combat maneuvers seem like window dressing once you've got improved critical. I like the feat (adv. rogue talents), skill points, certain infusions/spells (displacement, greater invis.), and sneaks from the Vivisectionist, but they feel feast or famine when relying on their buffs. 'Roided out on buffs, they are impressive, but the structure of the game is punitive to characters that rest alot. The most significant buffs don't develop to late game though, and the limited BAB also delays some important feats. Reliance on "menace" type feats of getting flat-footed status also is quite a tax.

Right now I'm torn between 2:18 Paladin:Slayer vs 2:18 Paladin:2H Fighter. Both have lesser damage output than Vivsectionist, but are far less fiddly, better AB, and swim in feats. Slayer has access to limited sneaks, rogue talents (love), more skills, and better saves. It still makes it reliant on imposing conditions to work efficiently though. 2H Fighter's saves or only slightly less, but the loss of Crippling and Opportunist are felt. The class features also give damage bonuses that approach all those sneak die, and are good against everything without having to bother with conditions, studied target, or quarry. The DR is pretty great too. They're both so close, that it's a tough call.

Why not get the best of both worlds with something like Angelkin Vivi 16/Monk 2/Paladin 2? 4 attacks, Grand Mutagen and lots of sneak attacks. Pick up a fauchard and go to town.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

W

I've been experimenting with polearm builds. I've reached a bit of an impasse on what I want to do. The combat maneuvers seem like window dressing once you've got improved critical. I like the feat (adv. rogue talents), skill points, certain infusions/spells (displacement, greater invis.), and sneaks from the Vivisectionist, but they feel feast or famine when relying on their buffs. 'Roided out on buffs, they are impressive, but the structure of the game is punitive to characters that rest alot. The most significant buffs don't develop to late game though, and the limited BAB also delays some important feats. Reliance on "menace" type feats of getting flat-footed status also is quite a tax.

Right now I'm torn between 2:18 Paladin:Slayer vs 2:18 Paladin:2H Fighter. Both have lesser damage output than Vivsectionist, but are far less fiddly, better AB, and swim in feats. Slayer has access to limited sneaks, rogue talents (love), more skills, and better saves. It still makes it reliant on imposing conditions to work efficiently though. 2H Fighter's saves or only slightly less, but the loss of Crippling and Opportunist are felt. The class features also give damage bonuses that approach all those sneak die, and are good against everything without having to bother with conditions, studied target, or quarry. The DR is pretty great too. They're both so close, that it's a tough call.

Why not get the best of both worlds with something like Angelkin Vivi 16/Monk 2/Paladin 2? 4 attacks, Grand Mutagen and lots of sneak attacks. Pick up a fauchard and go to town.

That's one of the things I tried. I did Human Pal 2/Scaled Fist 2/Vivi 16, using fauchard. The BAB is pretty weak without infusions, delaying critical related feats for some time. The mutagen develops very late, I also found the BAB lackluster without using infusions. That's not an issue on a big map, but I tend to visit multiple zones without resting, even after Chapter 1. Maybe I'm being too picky.

 

[Desiderius]

Well that looks really powerful to me. Do you have any additional advice regarding the necessary feats/classes to achieve what you had in screenshots (I noticed you had two Barbarian levels) or is mine/Seari's framework fine? Also do you have a preference between double axes and two-bladed swords?

In the case of Dodge if feel like it would really help especially early game.

+1 AC is a drop in the ocean. It's about Opportunity cost (what you're giving up to get the one AC).

Barb 2 gets you Martial Proficiency, another Bite (while Raging, if you're into that), Some Rage, Speed (i.e. larger Charge range), and Uncanny Dodge.

Everybody builds the cool Vivi starting out, but it's not like you're breaking the game or anything. I've found iteratives (including bites) to be overrated. Feel free to experiment with what works for you.

Barb isn't (easily) compatible with Monk, though.

Monk doesn't really give this kind of build anything it needs unless you're trying to solo with it, which is going to be a problem without Image or Uncanny Dodge. Barb gives it everything it needs.

 

[Desiderius]

Maybe I'm being too picky.

No, you're coming to the belated realization that Vivi is a fine class but nothing out of the ordinary, let alone broken.

Likewise, outside of some corner cases both Vivi and Monk splashes cost you more than they give you.

 

[Desiderius]

I've seen impressive screenshots from Haplo in the past, but I'm not euphemistically familiar with his methods. Do you care to elaborate? My character concept was a reach combatant that could duo with Valerie as a tank. DPS over her shoulder, AoO oriented, with Combat Manuevers to support the tank, as well as tackle any boss/superior foes. Good saves are important to me, which is where the Paladin splash comes in.

He focuses on getting big dice/bonuses and multiplying them. Sneaks don't get multiplied.

I stumbled on it through the back door trying to find Standard Actions to go with Freebooter's Bane Move action. Standard Actions (Charge/Pounce, Cleave, Vital Strike, Attacks of Opportunity) turn out to be pretty damn good.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Maybe I'm being too picky.

No, you're coming to the belated realization that Vivi is a fine class but nothing out of the ordinary, let alone broken.

Likewise, outside of some corner cases both Vivi and Monk splashes cost you more than they give you.

Yeah, I ultimately found even the monk splash for AC & Evasion not necessary. There are alot of great medium armors that permit high Dex bonuses, and Reflex is so high that Evasion is overkill. The sneaks are great, but when 1/4 of your attacks will do 100+ damage, they are less relevant. In my tests with random items in Endless Dungeon mode, the 2:18 Paladin:2H Fighter would do like 55 damage minimum to anything, using just a +1 Fauchard. With proper itemization from the campaign, that can be improved greatly. Great Cleave for hordes, iterative attacks for unique enemies. Everything explodes. The fighter class features really add up.

 

[PETEX]

+1 AC is a drop in the ocean. It's about Opportunity cost (what you're giving up to get the one AC).

Barb 2 gets you Martial Proficiency, another Bite (while Raging, if you're into that), Some Rage, Speed (i.e. larger Charge range), and Uncanny Dodge.

Everybody builds the cool Vivi starting out, but it's not like you're breaking the game or anything. I've found iteratives (including bites) to be overrated. Feel free to experiment with what works for you.

Okay I tried also putting this together (Barb 2/ Viv X) put I noticed that after the few first levels I'm at a loss on which feats to choose. Could you please provide any outline on which feats and at which level you chose while testing or would choose during a playthrough?

 

[Desiderius]

No. It's the bare minimum number of feats (another hint that maybe Vivi isn't all it's cracked up to be), and three of those are taken up by your two-weapon fighting feats. The fun of the game is figuring those out for yourself.

A couple non-obvious ones:

Blindfight helps a lot in Season, then gives you gaze immunity for the late game.

The radius for adjacency in Teamwork feats is 5 meters, so they're better than they look.

Shatter Defenses is a lot better for builds trying to land iterative attacks and bites, but it costs three Feats to get it if you're not using Combat Style Feats from Ranger/Slayer, one of the reasons I've leaned away from iteratives. It also requires mobs to be Shaken, to which Undead (including Ghosts) are immune.

 

[Seari]

Blindfight helps a lot in Season

Vivisectionists get Echolocation, although it's a bit late if you multi. Not a problem if you use Jubi.