Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Desiderius]

Pretty much no mechanically advantage to being evil as well.

Jaethal's undead advantage is too good, ironically. It's kind of immersion breaking watching enemies cast vampiric touch on her, simply because she is at the front of the party.

You can be good and still enjoy her almost until the end.

And if you're a really good boy, you get her back before the end.

But alive, without the undead goodies.

She gets new ones.

 

[Parabalus]

Pretty much no mechanically advantage to being evil as well.

Jaethal's undead advantage is too good, ironically. It's kind of immersion breaking watching enemies cast vampiric touch on her, simply because she is at the front of the party.

You can be good and still enjoy her almost until the end.

And if you're a really good boy, you get her back before the end.

But alive, without the undead goodies.

She gets new ones.

Pretty much no mechanically advantage to being evil as well.

 

[Jvegi]

The AI in this game allows you to lure enemies from their group and kill them one by one. I just defeated the Stag Lord this way. Actually, it was the bear who did it.

No such bullshit in IWD2.

 

[Delterius]

Pretty much no mechanically advantage to being evil as well.

Should you need one? The 'evil companions are powerful and all but being evil is not really possible' thing Baldurs Gate did is unnecessary here. You can be a Goodly ruler or an Evil tyrant. Or something in between with its own personality. You can gloat at your enemies, reap vengeance upon rival states and work your subjects dry. Or you can proclaim virtues of rule, be friendly towards other countries and tax people reasonably. Story paths should be valid in their own right. No carrots needed for evil characters since the stick is busy hitting peasants all night.

 

[Mangoose]

The AI in this game allows you to lure enemies from their group and kill them one by one. I just defeated the Stag Lord this way. Actually, it was the bear who did it.

No such bullshit in IWD2.

...That may be because by IWD2, the team already had experience wit Falllout/Fallout2/BG1/2/TOB, IWD 1... (and PST lol). By "experience" I mean that each game showed what works/doesn't work. Iteration.

 

[Jvegi]

...That may be because by IWD2, the team already had experience wit Falllout/Fallout2/BG1/2/TOB, IWD 1... (and PST lol). By "experience" I mean that each game showed what works/doesn't work. Iteration.

Yeah. Owlcat was starting from scratch. It's not like they've played those games.

 

[Mangoose]

...That may be because by IWD2, the team already had experience wit Falllout/Fallout2/BG1/2/TOB, IWD 1... (and PST lol). By "experience" I mean that each game showed what works/doesn't work. Iteration.

Yeah. Owlcat was starting from scratch. It's not like they've played those games.

Why would that help? Playing those games doesn't mean you know the source code, and your engine is different. AI may be quick to design but enjoy coding it.

 

[Desiderius]

What’s your point? There are various ways to “solve” the Fort area with full frontal assault being the hardest. Unleashing the Owlbear takes a certain dialogue choice, a reasonably tough skill check, and some non-obvious tactical set-up.

This is what we want. Stop shitting on it just to give you some grist for empty tough guy posturing.

 

[Mangoose]

What’s your point? There are various ways to “solve” the Fort area with full frontal assault being the hardest. Unleashing the Owlbear takes a certain dialogue choice, a reasonably tough skill check, and some non-obvious tactical set-up.

This is what we want. Stop shitting on it just to give you some grist for empty tough guy posturing.

The stupid Owlbear bugged on me. I finally managed that one by sneaking my team up the stairs up to where the Staglord was standing, I had either an animal companion or party member ready on the left platform... And then my summoner played decoy for the main group, leading them away to the gate. Loll.

Edit: Desiderius 100% correct on the frontal assault. If you're doing a frontal assault every time, that means you're playing the game instead of playing the encounter.

 

[Jvegi]

What’s your point? There are various ways to “solve” the Fort area with full frontal assault being the hardest. Unleashing the Owlbear takes a certain dialogue choice, a reasonably tough skill check, and some non-obvious tactical set-up.

This is what we want. Stop shitting on it just to give you some grist for empty tough guy posturing.

Yes. And it's cool those options are there. Nice. Bit gamey, but whatever.

How does it change the fact you can attract those fuckers one by one because enemies who are outside of your "attraction circle" will just stand there? It's even more annoying since the "attraction circle" is smaller than your vision range.

Stop shitting on it just to give you some grist for empty tough guy posturing.

You're obviously very emotionally attached to this game. Nothing wrong with that. You do you.

I am experiencing it for the first time. I've played KotC, ToEE, and IWD2 in the last year, and all of those games have silly and shitty things. PoK is no different and I hope it proves to be at least on the level of those other games. So far it's trying, but stumbling along the way.

 

[Mangoose]

What’s your point? There are various ways to “solve” the Fort area with full frontal assault being the hardest. Unleashing the Owlbear takes a certain dialogue choice, a reasonably tough skill check, and some non-obvious tactical set-up.

This is what we want. Stop shitting on it just to give you some grist for empty tough guy posturing.

Yes. And it's cool those options are there. Nice. Bit gamey, but whatever.

How does it change the fact you can attract those fuckers one by one because enemies who are outside of your "attraction circle" will just stand there? It's even more annoying since the "attraction circle" is smaller than your vision range.

Stop shitting on it just to give you some grist for empty tough guy posturing.

You're obviously very emotionally attached to this game. Nothing wrong with that. You do you.

I am experiencing it for the first time. I've played KotC, ToEE, and IWD2 in the last year, and all of those games have silly and shitty things. PoK is no different and I hope it proves to be at least on the level of those other games. So far it's trying, but stumbling along the way.

Uh honestly you're not going to get great AI until modders come. This is the game development process -> some time designing, more time coding, and then months debugging, trying to hunt for a missing bracket or semicolon.

I mean, BG1/BG2 would be SOOOO much crappier if not for SCS: https://gibberlings3.github.io/Documentation/readmes/readme-stratagems.html#aitweaks Smart guys, one of the ways they let you change difficulty was whether or not enemy mages prebuffed. Well, I might as well quote it here:

1. BASIC: Enemies choose their targets and use their spells fairly unintelligently. They refrain from using some of their more dangerous special abilities and spells. (This is roughly the level of the unmodified game's 'Core' difficulty.)
2. IMPROVED: Intelligent enemies attack and use their powers fairly sensibly, though most will not use class abilities, and some of their most dangerous special abilities are still avoided.
3. TACTICAL: Enemies continue to use intelligence in their targetting, and now use most of their powers and often call for help from nearby allies. Spellcasters begin casting some spells in advance of combat, especially if they arrive in the area in sight of the party. Some supernatural creatures gain the ability to use their abilities instantly and uninterruptably.
4. HARDCORE: Enemies now use all of their powers as effectively as they can; a small number receive a boost to hit points. Some enemy numbers are increased. Spellcasters more aggressively cast spells in advance. In the later game, some of the most powerful spellcasters begin to use High-Level Abilities.
5. INSANE: Several enemies receive further boosts to their abilities and their numbers; spellcasters aggressively cast spells before combat; use of High-Level Abilities now occurs (for the most powerful spellcasters) throughout the game.

And it's still being worked on right now (I don't know why, it's already insane enough). I'm pretty sure they've been working on this over a decade. I don't know where the entire changelog is but Version 22 was back in 2013, when they combined SCS1 and SCS2 as they were somewhat developed separately.

 

[Mangoose]

Yes. And it's cool those options are there. Nice. Bit gamey, but whatever.

How does it change the fact you can attract those fuckers one by one because enemies who are outside of your "attraction circle" will just stand there? It's even more annoying since the "attraction circle" is smaller than your vision range.

Just wanted to point out... the options are how you play the game. Attracting enemies is the same as "gaming the system" in MMOs, where you're always trying to pull as little enemies as possible. THAT'S gamey. In essence, what you're doing is exploiting one of the things they didn't could figure a way to patch up, or didn't have time, or didn't notice, or didn't have the $$$ to hire playtesters. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

There's a reason I stopped wanting to be a code monkey. You spend WAY more time debugging than actually designing and writing. And the more complexity, the greater the debugging process. And it is NOT fun. Hell, just by coding experience is a big deal.

 

[Desiderius]

You're obviously very emotionally attached to this game.

Oh Jesus fucking Christ with the armchair psychoanalysis. I’m so emotionally attached I got kicked off the Owlcat forums for criticizing it.

I am emotionally attached to criticism that makes sense and that makes games better. If you go through the trouble not to be detected by the other dudes and lure one guy off to check on something you should get rewarded for that. It’s not easy to do on that map nor should you really need to once you’ve gone that far. You’re nitpicking an outstanding encounter design.

Is it because you’re a miserable pussy who hates life because you suck at it? Not really my business to speculate.

 

[Rieser]

Someone hit a nerve.

 

[Jvegi]

If you go through the trouble not to be detected by the other dudes and lure one guy off to check on something you should get rewarded for that.

Not what happens though. I'm walking in range of a guy who stands a feet away from the boss. The guy goes after me, the boss doesn't. Even though he is in my field of view. Looks silly, plays silly, it's silly. And immersion breaking, which is a big deal.

It’s not easy to do on that map nor should you really need to once you’ve gone that far

It is extremely easy. I didn't need to do that, but the fight was pretty difficult. I've only managed to do half of the things you can do to weaken him before I was spotted. His arrows were vicious.

Not a bad encounter. It's the AI that's broken.

ANOTHER THING. Destroy undead, and probably most aoe abilities, are restricted to one room, even when the doors are opened. I couldn't destroy the undead in Old Sycamore caves (where those pressure plates are) because they were standing on the other side of the wide-opened passage, 5 feet away from me and in the line of sight.

Call it nitpicking. I call it some lame bullshit.

 

[Parabalus]

Pretty much no mechanically advantage to being evil as well.

Should you need one? The 'evil companions are powerful and all but being evil is not really possible' thing Baldurs Gate did is unnecessary here. You can be a Goodly ruler or an Evil tyrant. Or something in between with its own personality. You can gloat at your enemies, reap vengeance upon rival states and work your subjects dry. Or you can proclaim virtues of rule, be friendly towards other countries and tax people reasonably. Story paths should be valid in their own right. No carrots needed for evil characters since the stick is busy hitting peasants all night.

Difference is that good has plenty of carrots.

 

[Shadenuat]

I’m so emotionally attached I got kicked off the Owlcat forums for criticizing it

and the steam forums

not everyone wants a screaming coach telling them how to play the game. RPGs are about discovery. let people discover things themselves.

 

[Delterius]

Pretty much no mechanically advantage to being evil as well.

Should you need one? The 'evil companions are powerful and all but being evil is not really possible' thing Baldurs Gate did is unnecessary here. You can be a Goodly ruler or an Evil tyrant. Or something in between with its own personality. You can gloat at your enemies, reap vengeance upon rival states and work your subjects dry. Or you can proclaim virtues of rule, be friendly towards other countries and tax people reasonably. Story paths should be valid in their own right. No carrots needed for evil characters since the stick is busy hitting peasants all night.

Difference is that good has plenty of carrots.

none of them is 'gets to torture stefano moskoni to death' so you're wrong

 

[Desiderius]

I was fibbing Shad.

I got suspended for a week because one guy was mad that I challenged his claim to authority. He talked to the manager and manager was lazy. Same thing at Steam. People there got along.

Point stands that I'm vocal about criticisms and my reaction to lousy criticisms is about lousy criticisms not undue attachment to game as is.

The only thing I'm telling people is to try the game as designed before listening to the screaming coaches (or their own hangups they bring into it) so they'll have something to compare it to.

 

[Desiderius]

I call it some lame bullshit.

Yeah, I think you may just have had something bad to eat.

Spoiler

These trolls are in another room. Or maybe something bugged about that tomb or maybe you didn't have line of sight or maybe you missed your attack roll.

Destroy Undead is a Ray. It requires a touch attack.

 

[Desiderius]

Someone hit a nerve.

How much weed did you need to smoke to kill yours?

 

[Jvegi]

These trolls are in another room. Or maybe something bugged about that tomb or maybe you didn't have line of sight or maybe you missed your attack roll.

Destroy Undead is a Ray. It requires a touch attack.

I mean the cleric ability to damage undead around him. Turn Undead, I'm not sure if it's called the same here.

AoE, centered on the caster. Casted multiple times by two clerics. They were face to face with the undead, with only a doorstep between them. The opening was wide enough to fit at least 4 people. It had no effect, no rolls were made by the undead. I had to run in behind them through attacks of opportunity to damage them.

Did this fireball damage enemies in multiple chambers? I wonder if the blast can go through openings in walls. It's possible my situation was a bug, perhaps the game was acting like the passage was still closed.

 

[Xamenos]

These trolls are in another room. Or maybe something bugged about that tomb or maybe you didn't have line of sight or maybe you missed your attack roll.

Destroy Undead is a Ray. It requires a touch attack.

I mean the cleric ability to damage undead around him. Turn Undead, I'm not sure if it's called the same here.

AoE, centered on the caster. Casted multiple times by two clerics. They were face to face with the undead, with only a doorstep between them. The opening was wide enough to fit at least 4 people. It had no effect, no rolls were made by the undead. I had to run in behind them through attacks of opportunity to damage them.

Did this fireball damage enemies in multiple chambers? I wonder if the blast can go through openings in walls. It's possible my situation was a bug, perhaps the game was acting like the passage was still closed.

Definitely a bug, and one I never encountered when I last played the game.

 

[Desiderius]

I mean the cleric ability to damage undead around him. Turn Undead, I'm not sure if it's called the same here.

AoE, centered on the caster. Casted multiple times by two clerics. They were face to face with the undead, with only a doorstep between them. The opening was wide enough to fit at least 4 people. It had no effect, no rolls were made by the undead. I had to run in behind them through attacks of opportunity to damage them.

It's called Channel Energy, but can be confusing for new players. The Gold one heals your team, the Teal one damages Undead. Since those are the first Undead you've likely encountered it's possible you haven't figured that out yet. I didn't even use the ability my first time and was confused about it for a long time.

Those Undead are meant to be challenging, they're also entirely optional and don't give much EXP. Loot's ok. If you're losing your Bard for that second Cleric that could make the game more difficult.

 

[Mangoose]

I mean the cleric ability to damage undead around him. Turn Undead, I'm not sure if it's called the same here.

AoE, centered on the caster. Casted multiple times by two clerics. They were face to face with the undead, with only a doorstep between them. The opening was wide enough to fit at least 4 people. It had no effect, no rolls were made by the undead. I had to run in behind them through attacks of opportunity to damage them.

It's called Channel Energy, but can be confusing for new players. The Gold one heals your team, the Teal one damages Undead. Since those are the first Undead you've likely encountered it's possible you haven't figured that out yet. I didn't even use the ability my first time and was confused about it for a long time.

Actually, no. If it's Gold, it either heals the living or it hurts the dead. You'd be channeling Positive Energy. If it's green, that means you're channeling Negative Energy, which will hurt living people or it heals the undead. I'm PRETTY sure that you'll have two Golds or two Greens unless you're Harrim. So.. If you're going Negative Channeling (or if you have both from being Neutral and whatever Feat) pick up Selective Channeling. Nothing like a +2d6 negative energy channeling hat and then spamming negative channeling with Jaethal. And then raising the ones you killed so they distract them from you.

TBH Jvegi Pulling them one by one is inefficient. I pulled all of them with one character. Not because I could kill them, but because it got them away from the Stag Lord, and my team was hiding beside the building by the Stag Lord. Again, in a fight, you think only about the fight and how to beat the fight, not about the macro level roleplaying or what not. I wiped out those stragglers after I killed the Staglord.