Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Seari]

Desiderius does extending Stunning Barrier increase stun duration to 2 rounds?

 

[Sykar]

Full class indeed works, but min maxing you multiclass. It's ok to have a more laid back casual approach of rpgs, but i expected more in depth builds knowledge here.

Factually fake news. For example with CotW I am playing a School Savant Diviner and anything I would add would make my arcanist weaker, at best it would be a side grade. So no there are plenty of builds were adding extra classes adds nothing or worse makes the build weaker. It is worse for spell casters since they usually hit important spell levels, 3 and upwards basically, a level, or more, later now, and their class abilities are compromised. A Diviner basically loses his top tier talent which upgrades his initiative bonus from 9 at 19 to 20 at 20. There is nothing in the game that can make up for that. Also the aura that reduces enemy saves, hit, etc. can be used 1 round per class level. I much rather have an extra round of that aura than anything else in the game.

 

[LannTheStupid]

fake news

Hmmm...

with CotW I am playing

A! You are not playing Kingmaker.

Wakarimashita.

 

[Sykar]

fake news

Hmmm...

with CotW I am playing

A! You are not playing Kingmaker.

Wakarimashita.

Retard, please. Which part of "Diviner" do you fail to understand? I could play this class as a wizard diviner and it would be the exact same problem, lose 11 initiative and extra rounds of -2 to saves, to hit, etc. for what benefits exactly? Never mind that you also delay higher level spells by another level and lose caster levels.

 

[Mortmal]

Full class indeed works, but min maxing you multiclass. It's ok to have a more laid back casual approach of rpgs, but i expected more in depth builds knowledge here.

Factually fake news. For example with CotW I am playing a School Savant Diviner and anything I would add would make my arcanist weaker, at best it would be a side grade. So no there are plenty of builds were adding extra classes adds nothing or worse makes the build weaker. It is worse for spell casters since they usually hit important spell levels, 3 and upwards basically, a level, or more, later now, and their class abilities are compromised. A Diviner basically loses his top tier talent which upgrades his initiative bonus from 9 at 19 to 20 at 20. There is nothing in the game that can make up for that. Also the aura that reduces enemy saves, hit, etc. can be used 1 round per class level. I much rather have an extra round of that aura than anything else in the game.

Caster no, its not often worth it to multiclass except arcane trickster and dipping one level of vivisectionist , many melee dex build can benefits from a monk level.

 

[Seari]

Very interesting, I'll start using that spell.

 

[Desiderius]

It’s an interesting question whether the jacked-up Wrath Unfair could bring that Monk splash marginal AC back into play. You’re almost certainly better off just not tanking those bosses where it would matter in the first place and relying on your core class abilities and good party design/tight play against everything else.

 

[Desiderius]

The problem with trying to splash with gishes in PF is that those are exactly the classes with the most scaling abilities and slow spell progression that get boned the most by those missing levels.

Likewise if you want an AT in P:K (you probably don’t - they’re not that great until they’re suddenly too good) you’ve got Octavia and in Wrath you can get the Sneaks from Trickster Mythic.

 

[Sykar]

The problem with trying to splash with gishes in PF is that those are exactly the classes with the most scaling abilities and slow spell progression that get boned the most by those missing levels.

Likewise if you want an AT in P:K (you probably don’t - they’re not that great until they’re suddenly too good) you’ve got Octavia and in Wrath you can get the Sneaks from Trickster Mythic.

Yeah you lagg now a level behind pure wizards&sorcs and also lose out on extra feats, scaling abilities, etc. Just looking at the attribute boost from Transmuter, Octavia ends up with +2, while pure Transmuter can add up to 5. Even if you get gear at worse you can just boost strength by 5 which adds to the groups carrying capabilities so will always be a plus at least. Or you can ditch any dex boosting gear and get con/wis/cha/int from gear instead and forget about int unless you can get more than +5 which you do not iirc.

 

[NJClaw]

ELEXmakesMeHard

Have you posted about your "Paladin 20, Bard 20, Alchemist 20, Cleric 20, Sorcerer 20, Kineticist 20" P:KM builds anywhere? I like the idea of playing pure classes on high difficulty, if I do another playthrough.

Nothing strange, each character is extremely straightforward. The Paladin is an Aasimar, everyone else Human (the Alchemist also works as a Motherless Tiefling, if that Int penalty doesn't bother you). All base classes, except the Alchemist (Vivisectionist) and the Sorcerer (Sylvan).

The important feats are:
- Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, Outflank, and Shatter Defenses on the Paladin, Alchemist, Cleric, and Bard. Power Attack on the Paladin, Martial Weapon Proficiency on your Cleric and Bard if you want them to fight with a reach weapon like a glaive or bardiche (it can be useful since the frontline can get pretty crowded). You can avoid taking those feats with your Bard and/or Cleric if you play them ranged (there are some good bows and crossbows), but then you have to take at least Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot and ideally also the rest of the ranged feats. A reach weapon (with Enlarge Person when needed) basically makes you sort of a small-range ranged character and lets you benefit from Outflank, so I usually do that.
- Lingering Performance, and (Greater) Spell Focus (Enchantment) on the Bard.
- Weapon Focus and Dazzling Display on the Sorcerer, so that he can waste his empty turns enabling Shatter Defenses for everyone. Then pick (Greater) Spell Focus for your favorite school (I usually go for Conjuration, which has amazing debuffs and CC). The other feats can be anything from Point Blank Shot/Precise Shot if you want to use ranged touch spells, other (Greater) Spell Focus (Evocation has one of my favorite spells in Stormbolts, but Transmutation can also be useful), Improved Initiative, (Greater) Spell Penetration if you want to rely a lot on non-Conjuration spells.
- Two-Weapon Fighting (and its Improved and Greater versions) on the Alchemist.

Class feature choices:
- For the Paladin's Mercy: Fatigued, Exhausted, and Blinded/Paralyzed are my priorities.
- The obligatory Discoveries for the Alchemist are Infusion and Greater/Grand Mutagen, but Feral Mutagen can also be useful (especially at low levels).
- For the Sorcerer's Animal Companion, the Smilodon is the safest bet. Each animal has its own usefulness, but the pouncy boy lets you shred anything to pieces without too much hassle.
- For the Cleric's domains, either Animal/Community (Erastil) or Nobility/Law (Abadar). Erastil gives you another Smilodon (but you have to take Boon Companion), an incredibly powerful single-use buff to take down the real threat of each area (giving +8 to attack rolls and saving throws to the entire group makes no sense), and another healing pool that also removes fatigue (so you can travel more without resting); Abadar gives you a very strong effect for all your allies (+2 to attack rolls and AC) that you can use 10 times per day (so during every encounter that matters): Nobility is more consistent than Community, but Community gives you a "WIN" button for a single encounter each day.

Paladin's spells for each level:
1 - Stunning Barrier, Divine Favor, and Lesser Restoration. Veil of Positive Energy whenever you have to fight the undead.
2 - Bestow Grace (doubling your CHA bonus to ST makes you virtually immune to any effect). Aura of Greater Courage is useful on the rare occasion that an enemy uses fear effects.
3 - Archon's Aura is too good to use 3rd level slots on anything else.
4 - Eaglesoul and Resounding Blow.

Alchemist's spells for each level:
1 - all the 1st level slots are there to cast Shield on your melee characters and animal companions.
2 - all the 2nd level slots are there to cast Barkskin on your melee characters and animal companions.
3 - all the 3rd level slots are there to cast Displacement during any difficult fight. There are other good spells, but you can use them with your other characters.
4 - Freedom of Movement, Greater Invisibility, and Death Ward are all great, but the most unique thing you can do is to share Echolocation with the Paladin and animal companions.
5 - Communal Stoneskin.
6 - Transformation, Legendary Proportions, Heal.

Bard's spells for each level:
1 - Hideous Laughter
2 - Cacophonous Call and Mirror Image. Heroism can be good while you wait to unlock Good Hope, Cat's Grace can help to ease the buffing burden on the Sorcerer.
3 - Good Hope, Displacement, and Mass Feather Step. Maybe Confusion, but you don't really need it.
4 - Freedom of Movement, Greater Invisibility.
5 - Mass Cacophonous Call, Greater Heroism.
6 - Brilliant Inspiration, Overwhelming Presence.

For the Bard, even though Inspire Courage, Dirge of Doom, and Inspire Heroics are your go-to songs, don't sleep on Fascinate, which is a very powerful CC you can use almost at will. Use Inspire Competence whenever you need to disarm a trap or unlock a chest.

Sorcerer's spells for each level:
1 - Enlarge Person, Snowball, Grease, Mage Armor (for the animal companions).
2 - Glitterdust, Create Pit, Cat's Grace (for the animal companions), Mirror Image.
3 - Haste, Stinking Cloud, Spiked Pit, Slow.
4 - Acid Pit, Enervation, Greater Invisibility.
5 - Animal Growth, Hungry Pit.
6 - Greater Heroism, Chains of Light, Sirocco.
7 - Legendary Proportions, Power Word Blind.
8 - Stormbolts, Frightful Aspect.
9 - Mass Icy Prison, Tsunami.

Cleric's spells for each level:
1 - Shield of Faith.
2 - Bull's Strength (for the animal companions).
3 - Communal Delay Poison, Archon's Aura, Magical Vestment, Communal Resist Energy.
4 - Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, Communal Protection From Energy.
5 - Breath of Life, Cleanse.
6 - Heal, Inspiring Recovery.
7 - Resurrection, Greater Restoration.
8 - Holy Aura, Stormbolts, Frightful Aspect.
9 - Mass Heal, Overwhelming Presence.

As for the kineticist, I usually go Fire/Earth, with the Dazzling Display/Dreadful Carnage and Trip/Greater Trip/Fury's Fall/Agile Maneuvers feats chains. Infusions and Wild Talents: Extended Range, Bowling, Wall, Enduring Earth, and Deadly Earth. The Kineticist isn't too synergic with the rest of the party, but:
- having an always-ready touch attack/AoE effect can be handy in many situations;
- tripping an enemy still gives a bonus to your companions, and Dreadful Carnage can free the Bard's song so that you can use Inspire Courage instead of Dirge of Doom.

If you don't enjoy the Kineticist as a class, you can easily drop it in favor of a Ranger or Druid.

 

[Bloodeyes]

So I'm just getting back into this game and I'm finally going to play through all of it when I get a break from work/study soon. The build I've decided on is Ecclesitheiurge 19 Monk 1. Race is Aasimar (Plumekith).

Stats are

STR: 14
DEX: 18
CON: 14
INT: 7
WIS: 19 (All points go here)
CHA: 7

Deity is Pharasma, domains are death and repose (I know I should go for animal and community or something but I want to be a necromancer). Alignment is Lawful neutral.

I've only got up to level 5 so far playing the prologue. Custom difficulty, everything set to "normal" or "1", all cheat things like the second chance on death turned off. I left the ability to respec on though, because I'm sure to fuck something up and I don't want to restart again.

Levels so far

1: Cleric - Weapon finesse
2: Monk - Crane style
3: Cleric - Weapon Proficiency Elven curve blade
4: Cleric
5: Cleric - Spell focus necromancy.

Skills are mobility (only put one point here to get the bonus from crane style), perception and persuasion.

I'm planning to take greater spell focus, combat casting, weapon focus ECB, wings, spell pentration, greater spell penetration and something else at 20 (toughness? Improved initiative?).

What do you guys think of this? Any major fuckups here/ideas to make it better? What about a second level of Monk for evasion? Is it worth losing another caster level when all my spells will be save or suck?

Another option I've been looking at is just going standard cleric with fighter 1 Aasimar lawbringer, still a necro (same deity + domains).

STR: 16
DEX: 12
CON: 16
INT: 7
WIS: 17 (all points go here)
CHA: 14

That build to level 5:

1: Cleric: Selective channel
2: Fighter: Weapon focus falchion
3: Cleric: Combat casting
4: Cleric
5: Cleric: Spell focus.

Would take all spell focus/penetration, wings and the two crit feats that make the falchion better. Couldn't get them until end game though because of BAB for the cleric being slower. Is this better than the Ecclesitheurge option? At level 5 his attack and defense are lower but damage is more and he can use his channel negative energy (which seems to kind of suck).

 

[Seari]

Not gonna lie, your builds are bad, but it doesn't matter on normal. My advice would be go glaive or fauchard for reach with STR and don't dip.

 

[Bloodeyes]

Not gonna lie, your builds are bad, but it doesn't matter on normal. My advice would be go glaive or fauchard for reach with STR and don't dip.

So with the strength one I took a fighter level to avoid having to take heavy armor and martial weapons proficiencies. You'd say just take those feats then? Also is channeling worth it? Because if I didn't channel I could have this for starting stats:

Spoiler

Or this:

Spoiler

 

[Orud]

Is there a reason why 'bless weapon' isn't that favored for Paladins? I prefer it way more than, for example, stunning barrier. Sure, the good aligned magic weapon property it confers isn't that great, but it causes every threat against an evil creature to be auto confirmed (plus it lasts for ages).

Granted, I'm only 2/3rd through the game. So I guess it might be because evil enemies stop appearing in the last third?

 

[Seari]

Not gonna lie, your builds are bad, but it doesn't matter on normal. My advice would be go glaive or fauchard for reach with STR and don't dip.

So with the strength one I took a fighter level to avoid having to take heavy armor and martial weapons proficiencies. You'd say just take those feats then? Also is channeling worth it? Because if I didn't channel I could have this for starting stats:

Spoiler

Or this:

Spoiler

Well if you want to be a necromancer, Pharasma isn't really the right choice, since she hates undead and all. Urgathoa is the one you want.

Depends on what you want to do. Since you're taking Death domain, you can use the companion Jaethal and focus on Channel Negative Energy to damage enemies and heal you both. You need Selective Channel to not damage other companions, req 13 CHA. Number of uses and DC is dependent on CHA.
Do you want to be a DC caster and melee when you're not casting or do you want to focus on melee and use buffs.
DC caster pumps WIS with like 16/14 STR to melee, melee character goes 16 WIS and pumps STR. Both can act as necromancers since Animate Dead doesn't require any investment. Do not dip a cleric, it fucks your progression.
Take the feat, either glaive or fauchard. Fauchards are better but there are fewer and you have to depend on artisans. Glaives are more common.

 

[Seari]

Is there a reason why 'bless weapon' isn't that favored for Paladins? I prefer it way more than, for example, stunning barrier. Sure, the good aligned magic weapon property it confers isn't that great, but it causes every threat against an evil creature to be auto confirmed (plus it lasts for ages).

Granted, I'm only 2/3rd through the game. So I guess it might be because evil enemies stop appearing in the last third?

Fey, beasts and constructs aren't evil.

 

[Bloodeyes]

Not gonna lie, your builds are bad, but it doesn't matter on normal. My advice would be go glaive or fauchard for reach with STR and don't dip.

So with the strength one I took a fighter level to avoid having to take heavy armor and martial weapons proficiencies. You'd say just take those feats then? Also is channeling worth it? Because if I didn't channel I could have this for starting stats:

Spoiler

Or this:

Spoiler

Well if you want to be a necromancer, Pharasma isn't really the right choice, since she hates undead and all. Urgathoa is the one you want.

Depends on what you want to do. Since you're taking Death domain, you can use the companion Jaethal and focus on Channel Negative Energy to damage enemies and heal you both. You need Selective Channel to not damage other companions, req 13 CHA. Number of uses and DC is dependent on CHA.
Do you want to be a DC caster and melee when you're not casting or do you want to focus on melee and use buffs.
DC caster pumps WIS with like 16/14 STR to melee, melee character goes 16 WIS and pumps STR. Both can act as necromancers since Animate Dead doesn't require any investment. Do not dip a cleric, it fucks your progression.
Take the feat, either glaive or fauchard. Fauchards are better but there are fewer and you have to depend on artisans. Glaives are more common.

I want to melee and cast offensive spells. Harrim and Linzi can heal/buff. Went death + repose because anti-undead necromancer. As in uses necromancy damage/debuff spells and fights when not casting. Uses death domain and offensive necro skills, doesn't summon undead. Fits with being a lawbringer Aasimar, less so with a Plumekith. Urgathoa is disgusting. I like playing sinister but not evil. Never actually enjoy making evil choices, even if I think I will. Hence lawful neutral. Death domain will make me heal from negative energy, repose will give immunity to death effects. Seems strong against undead and thematically fits with Pharasma. I was planning to redeem Jaethal and turn her to pharasma. I haven't got up to that part but I hear it can be done. I'll take your advice and reroll without the fighter level. Crusader is also an option but lots of people in Reddit threads were saying it's not worth it and just to take a fighter level instead.

 

[Desiderius]

I know I should go for animal and community or something but I want to be a necromancer

No, you shouldn't. You're doing it right, they're doing it wrong. Especially Animal, which blows chunks. In general, if you're doing something you want a class that has spells/abilities that enhance it. Cleric has less than none for pets since you have to burn a Feat for Boon and you're already short of those.

 

[Desiderius]

Not gonna lie, your builds are bad, but it doesn't matter on normal. My advice would be go glaive or fauchard for reach with STR and don't dip.

Falch is underrated, especially with that sweet Improved Crit from Crusader. And Reach doesn't work with Touch spells/abilities.

 

[NJClaw]

I know I should go for animal and community or something but I want to be a necromancer

No, you shouldn't. You're doing it right, they're doing it wrong. Especially Animal, which blows chunks. In general, if you're doing something you want a class that has spells/abilities that enhance it. Cleric has less than none for pets since you have to burn a Feat for Boon and you're already short of those.

Owlcat broke animal companions and made them obscenely overpowered compared to what they should actually be (not complaining, they're more fun this way). Even without any specific features to enhance them and having to waste a feat, they're still incredibly strong and can compete with any other domain power, especially on core difficulty.

I'm not saying that the other domains suck and one should always go for Animal, only that it definitely doesn't "blow chunks".

 

[Desiderius]

Crusader is also an option but lots of people in Reddit threads were saying it's not worth it and just to take a fighter level instead.

People in Reddit should be listening to you, not vice versa. Thought you were sinister.

Only downside of Crusader (since you'll be principally fighting) for your purposes is losing a Domain, which is substantial. In exchange you get five (in practice four) feats, which is moreso.

As for the Fighter splash, you have the following scaling abilities:

Divine Favor
Shield of Faith
Divine Power
Magical Vestment, Armor (stacks with everything)

The Divine spells give Luck bonuses with stack with just about anything (except Prayer bonuses, but that's only +1 and Power scales up to +6).

So, I'd say think long and hard about Falchion, especially since fast spell progression with a Shield is one of the unique benefits of Cleric. One thing to consider is picking up Exotic Proficiency for Falcata instead which goes great with the Improved Crit bonus feat Crusader gets at level 10. That way you don't need Martial Proficiency at all, letting your Martial Proficiency classes use the best Martial weapons you find so you don't waste that ability on those characters.

 

[Desiderius]

[I'm not saying that the other domains suck and one should always go for Animal, only that it definitely doesn't "blow chunks".

The opportunity cost of clogging up the battlefield with their pathfinding and the spell resources required to buff them on top of losing the other Domain you could have had are massive. By far your best pet experience will be limiting yourself to one per party, and from that perspective you want that one to be the best it can be. That's Okbo or Sacred Huntmaster in P:K, or Mad Dog if you enjoy Barb gameplay.

If you're soloing Animal Domain is fine, but playing the Varnhold DLC shows just how frustrating it is to try to overcome the handicap that Animal Domain puts on a character. Very hard for her to do reliable damage with her Bow or to beat saves with her spells since she's so Feat starved.

 

[NJClaw]

From my experience, you're overexaggerating the pathfinding issue. In TB mode it's non-existent because you can precisely move everyone pretty easily, in RTwP it's worse but still very manageable with only 2 pets. And on core difficulty, you don't really need to waste many spells on them to make them useful.

I get it, it's too popular and sometimes for the wrong reasons, but that doesn't make shitting on it any more reasonable.

 

[Desiderius]

It's reasonable since Domains are the unique class feature of the Cleric class (Inquisitors don't get the bonus spells) and you're pissing it away for something ten other classes can do, and doing it worse then any of them can. Opportunity cost is the most important concept that is missing from contemporary build design and it is a glaring omission. It should be where you start, especially with party design.

 

[Bloodeyes]

Crusader is also an option but lots of people in Reddit threads were saying it's not worth it and just to take a fighter level instead.

People in Reddit should be listening to you, not vice versa. Thought you were sinister.

Only downside of Crusader (since you'll be principally fighting) for your purposes is losing a Domain, which is substantial. In exchange you get five (in practice four) feats, which is moreso.

As for the Fighter splash, you have the following scaling abilities:

Divine Favor
Shield of Faith
Divine Power
Magical Vestment, Armor (stacks with everything)

I was gonna have Harrim cast the buffs though, and just prepare damage + debuff spells on my main. So those should be based on his caster level, not mine.

The reason I'm so tempted to go Ecclesitheiurge is I could prepare more of my domain spells, like boneshaker at low level, undeath to death/slay living at mid level and horrid wilting/wail of the banshee at high level, allowing me to just spam those instead of casting buffs and melee fighting like a normal cleric. I don't want my PC to be normal.

I'd lose quite a bit of melee damage over a standard cleric/fighter 1 but at 5th level my AC and AB are actually slightly better, without even having any bracers on. Plus the better synergy between Plumekith and Ecclesitheiuge/Monk than Lawbringer and Cleric/fighter allows me to get Dex 18 for +4 to hit in melee, compared to 16 STR for +3 (both with 19 starting WIS). I've not played the game at high levels but what I've read says spells > melee at high levels so I wanted more of those while still being able to melee because I don't like my main being a back line pussy. I don't pretend to know the game that well but I think there may be something there with my Monk/Eccy. I mean losing a caster level blows but he's going to have max possible WIS + greater spell focus and greater spell penetration. Surely those feats make up for one lost level when it comes to his spell DCs? Or do you need max possible everything to hit reliably at high level?

As for going 2h, I hate how the cape clips through the shield. It just drives me crazy.