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Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

Desiderius

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[I'm not saying that the other domains suck and one should always go for Animal, only that it definitely doesn't "blow chunks".

The opportunity cost of clogging up the battlefield with their pathfinding and the spell resources required to buff them on top of losing the other Domain you could have had are massive. By far your best pet experience will be limiting yourself to one per party, and from that perspective you want that one to be the best it can be. That's Okbo or Sacred Huntmaster in P:K, or Mad Dog if you enjoy Barb gameplay.

If you're soloing Animal Domain is fine, but playing the Varnhold DLC shows just how frustrating it is to try to overcome the handicap that Animal Domain puts on a character. Very hard for her to do reliable damage with her Bow or to beat saves with her spells since she's so Feat starved.
 

NJClaw

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From my experience, you're overexaggerating the pathfinding issue. In TB mode it's non-existent because you can precisely move everyone pretty easily, in RTwP it's worse but still very manageable with only 2 pets. And on core difficulty, you don't really need to waste many spells on them to make them useful.

I get it, it's too popular and sometimes for the wrong reasons, but that doesn't make shitting on it any more reasonable.
 

Desiderius

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It's reasonable since Domains are the unique class feature of the Cleric class (Inquisitors don't get the bonus spells) and you're pissing it away for something ten other classes can do, and doing it worse then any of them can. Opportunity cost is the most important concept that is missing from contemporary build design and it is a glaring omission. It should be where you start, especially with party design.
 

Bloodeyes

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Crusader is also an option but lots of people in Reddit threads were saying it's not worth it and just to take a fighter level instead.

People in Reddit should be listening to you, not vice versa. Thought you were sinister.

Only downside of Crusader (since you'll be principally fighting) for your purposes is losing a Domain, which is substantial. In exchange you get five (in practice four) feats, which is moreso.

As for the Fighter splash, you have the following scaling abilities:

Divine Favor
Shield of Faith
Divine Power
Magical Vestment, Armor (stacks with everything)

I was gonna have Harrim cast the buffs though, and just prepare damage + debuff spells on my main. So those should be based on his caster level, not mine.

The reason I'm so tempted to go Ecclesitheiurge is I could prepare more of my domain spells, like boneshaker at low level, undeath to death/slay living at mid level and horrid wilting/wail of the banshee at high level, allowing me to just spam those instead of casting buffs and melee fighting like a normal cleric. I don't want my PC to be normal.

I'd lose quite a bit of melee damage over a standard cleric/fighter 1 but at 5th level my AC and AB are actually slightly better, without even having any bracers on. Plus the better synergy between Plumekith and Ecclesitheiuge/Monk than Lawbringer and Cleric/fighter allows me to get Dex 18 for +4 to hit in melee, compared to 16 STR for +3 (both with 19 starting WIS). I've not played the game at high levels but what I've read says spells > melee at high levels so I wanted more of those while still being able to melee because I don't like my main being a back line pussy. I don't pretend to know the game that well but I think there may be something there with my Monk/Eccy. I mean losing a caster level blows but he's going to have max possible WIS + greater spell focus and greater spell penetration. Surely those feats make up for one lost level when it comes to his spell DCs? Or do you need max possible everything to hit reliably at high level?

As for going 2h, I hate how the cape clips through the shield. It just drives me crazy.
 

Desiderius

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Divine Power is personal. It's your most important spell if you're fighting.

If you're casting then yeah you can hang close to the front lines with Ecclisitheurge if you're careful (and you need to to get the most out of Archon's Aura). With no Shield then Reach is best idea (probably take Exotic for Fauchard since there are some great ones). What you're describing is pretty much what I've been doing with Tristian and I used to splash for Fighter/Ranger level(s) but ended up figuring out it wasn't really necessary and you're better off getting the most out of your Domains and spells since there are so few Feats that help you do that.

Tristian AoO.jpg


Here you see him getting a nice whack in with a unique Fauchard you can get from the Artisan while he's casting Prayer at the same time.

As for Reddit sounds like it's about time for you to start offereing them advice more than vice versa, most of what you're getting from that direction isn't very good.
 
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NJClaw

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Surely those feats make up for one lost level when it comes to his spell DCs? Or do you need max possible everything to hit reliably at high level?
Your level doesn't affect your spells' DCs, but it does affect their effects (the damage they deal, their duration, the bonuses you get), and how soon you get them, which is by far the most noticeable thing.

Being one level behind the standard progression means gaining access to high-level spells later than optimal. When you get to character level 5 and should finally start casting Communal Delay Poison and Archon's Aura, instead you're still casting Boneshaker and Sound Burst. Obviously, this isn't anything game-breaking but not being able to cast your best spells as soon as possible is a pain in the ass. Still perfectly fine with a single level in another class though, so just go with whatever looks best to you. Trying out different combinations to see what works best is part of the fun.
 

Seari

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Really for normal anything works but non reach clerics are really squishy, there are Stunning Barrier and Grace spells however.

Gentle Touch from Repose domain seems really good, never noticed that ability before.

Also most advice from reddit I read is just awful.
 
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Desiderius

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non reach clerics are really squishy

Nothing is really squishy if you avail yourself of the resources at your disposal.

Harrim12tankingbigzombie.jpg


The reason he's dicking around with DEX and Monk splashes is because he's worried about squishiness. You're better off to take care of that with distract, debuff, and disable as well as smart tactics. Best defense is a good offense.
 

Desiderius

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The reason I'm so tempted to go Ecclesitheiurge is I could prepare more of my domain spells, like boneshaker at low level, undeath to death/slay living at mid level and horrid wilting/wail of the banshee at high level, allowing me to just spam those instead of casting buffs and melee fighting like a normal cleric. I don't want my PC to be normal.

I'd lose quite a bit of melee damage over a standard cleric/fighter 1 but at 5th level my AC and AB are actually slightly better, without even having any bracers on. Plus the better synergy between Plumekith and Ecclesitheiuge/Monk than Lawbringer and Cleric/fighter allows me to get Dex 18 for +4 to hit in melee, compared to 16 STR for +3 (both with 19 starting WIS). I've not played the game at high levels but what I've read says spells > melee at high levels so I wanted more of those while still being able to melee because I don't like my main being a back line pussy. I don't pretend to know the game that well but I think there may be something there with my Monk/Eccy. I mean losing a caster level blows but he's going to have max possible WIS + greater spell focus and greater spell penetration. Surely those feats make up for one lost level when it comes to his spell DCs? Or do you need max possible everything to hit reliably at high level?

As for going 2h, I hate how the cape clips through the shield. It just drives me crazy.

Yeah, I really like this concept. I'd never tried the Monk splash on Tristian (since he's not Lawful) but it does make a big difference since you can't wear armor already due to your base class and you want to max WIS for that class too. Thinking maybe take the Monk splash at level 11 so you get Boneshatter on time and you pick up Wings then too so you can change your playstyle at that point to reflect the massive AC boost.

Here's what I went with:

Pharasma AC Breakdown.jpg


Didn't get a shot of midcombat but there you pick up another +3 at least from Wings. Also missing the easy +2 Sacred Bonus from Blessing of the Faithful and Vestment shld be +4. If you want to go one-handed Pharasma gives you Dagger which allows Arcane Protector (+3 Dodge AC) which opens up Crane Wing and/or Deflect Arrows as well. Alternatively Elf opens up the sick mid-game Longswords for same approach and gives you free Spell Pen and Perception boost. Traditional Monk also makes Perception a class skill and gives you +2 Will.

Phasma AC.jpg


I went with base Aasimar because the extra CHR gives you more Channels with higher DC and is good on MC, especially if you go with Dazzling Display when you're not casting. DD is kind of a nonbo with Crane Style since you have to attack to turn on Fighting Defensively bonuses.

Pharasma Domain spells.jpg


The most fun thing about Ecclesitheurge is all the interesting Domain spells you get access to. Most of the good ones from Pharasma are from Water and Knowledge so you can't spam them but Scare and Circle of Death are both outstanding (especially if you're focusing on Necromancy) and usually not available to Clerics.

Undeath to Death is awesome vs Ghosts and Cold spells vs Fae so everything here is pretty good.

Repose ability.jpg


This means you don't have to keep Death Wards memorized all the time and just throw this up when you need this effect, freeing up spell slots. Several interesting and unique abilities for this build.

Pharasma Channel.jpg


The one thing I think you'll find a little disappointing is the Negative Channeling, since only way to boost DC is Charisma and there's no way to maximize/empower it. Compare to the spell at the right. AoE damage is always something to keep in mind but you'll often have better uses for your Standard Actions.

Pharasma Atk.jpg


Like attacking. With that Monk splash you can Flurry with Monk weapons and there are some very useful Quarterstaves that enhance your spellcasting. DEX-based melee isn't a great fit for any class that has access to the incomparable Frightful Aspect, so Weapon Finesse and trying to get DEX very high initially doesn't have much of a payoff.
 

Bloodeyes

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So what starting stats did you go with? I figured I'd have to go DEX based to survive without armor, even with my WIS bonus to defense. I know pros at this game say "control the battlefield and you don't need AC" but that sounds like it requires a higher level of player skill than where I'm at right now. Still, if I could get by with less DEX it would be great to actually deal some damage...

I've got CHA at 8 and don't bother with channeling at all, I just put those points in DEX instead because I figured the channel sucks so why use it? It just takes up a slot in my hotbar with something I'll never use. Even the halo is more useful to me because I use it for light in caves. Also not channeling means I don't need to take selective channel. I've noticed my elven curve blade has a 18-20 crit so I'm thinking it's probably worth a feat to make that 16-20 and actually do some damage.
 

Desiderius

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You get more DEX from equipment than anything, and you can always cast Cat's Grace until you find it. I usually start with giving every stat plus two (since that only costs one creation point) then giving whatever stat that got boosted another two (one each as well). So I think I ended up 12/14/12/12/17/17 since Aasimar gets boost to WIS/CHR? If you're struggling with tactics definitely that big WIS to AC boost from the Monk level will help a lot more than DEX which does nothing for you otherwise. One thing that can help against big groups is that Ice Storm. It creates Difficult Terrain that you can bypass for your own group with Feather Step, Mass. Really good against Redcaps.

Kind of the whole point of having Negative Channeling at all is to kill stuff. And it's good against some things that can be tough otherwise like Swarms and Wisps. I'd definitely try to make it work because you're not going to have a full spellbook until late. Other options of course including Dazzling Display (which also requires some CHR), tactical use of Blessing of the Faithful (better than it looks because it's Sacred AC so stacks), or fighting but then you're starting to stretch yourself thin. As I said best weapon for fighting is probably Fauchard but then you don't get Flurry from Monk. Quarterstaff turns on Flurry.

Elven Curve Blade is fun to think about but probably better for a dedicated build rather than Ecclesitheurge which is primarily about casting.
 

Bloodeyes

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Thanks for the informative posts dude. I'm still figuring out this game's systems but I think I'm getting there. It'll be a couple weeks before I can play seriously because of work but when I can I'll post some screens of endgame Tobias.
 

Desiderius

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Thanks for the cool build idea. Look forward to trying it in Wrath.
 

Yosharian

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I know I should go for animal and community or something but I want to be a necromancer

No, you shouldn't. You're doing it right, they're doing it wrong. Especially Animal, which blows chunks. In general, if you're doing something you want a class that has spells/abilities that enhance it. Cleric has less than none for pets since you have to burn a Feat for Boon and you're already short of those.
Owlcat broke animal companions and made them obscenely overpowered compared to what they should actually be (not complaining, they're more fun this way). Even without any specific features to enhance them and having to waste a feat, they're still incredibly strong and can compete with any other domain power, especially on core difficulty.

I'm not saying that the other domains suck and one should always go for Animal, only that it definitely doesn't "blow chunks".
Desiderius with the overblown hyperbole once again. Imagine thinking that Animal Domain is bad. It's the most broken domain in the game.
 

Desiderius

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I mean play the Varnhold DLC on Hard or above. You'll see for yourself. Even it were broken (it's not) that's a bad thing not a good one.
 

Mortmal

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Leopard is best pet for trip with reasonable size, whats annoying is all the micro to heal them , interface isn't so great for pets, there's easier to do. Animal domain is indeed great, pet + Sumon nature allies, dont think any summon beat those . Not the most broken thing in game, i'd say its conjuration, delay poison(= invulnerability to poison ) + stinking cloud /cloud kill easy to get and quite early. Only flaw is on undeads but then you can just cast acid pits or webs + freedom of movement instead.
 

Desiderius

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I was talking about the companion. She does all the things that are strong on their own - pet, summons, ranged combat, buffs - but because she tries to do them all in the same character she’s bad at all of them.

Worst pet class, second worst ranged class, weak summon buffs replace one Domain and pet replaces other. Not enough casts to buff properly let alone summon in that level range. You’re priced into Boon at lvl 7 so have no Feats for first 3/4 of the DLC. 10 STR means bow does no damage and can’t even equip Shock Short Bow. It’s bad.

Ecclesitheurge is best Cleric for Animal Domain since you still have access to all the other Domain spells of your Deity so don’t suffer as much from the bad Animal Domain spells and you have decent action economy with the Blessing of the Faithful so don’t need as many feats as Clerics who want to fight who have a hard time fitting Boon in.

Plays like a Sylvan Sorc. Still if you’re playing mercs why not take a good pet class (there are tons more of those in Wrath granted) and focus more on the unique benefits Ecclesitheurge brings to the table?
 

Desiderius

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Leopard is easily favorite pet, especially in Wrath, although don’t sleep on Dog.
 

Tomasety

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Hello again. Sorry for bothering you with so many questions but Ive realized the importance of having a proper controller in the party and I wondered if a melee sorceror main character would work. No dips obviously, and the Abysall Bloodline looks like made for that role but I'm not sure about feats in particular burning a feat to take Martial Weapons or just stick with sorceror proficiencies until I get Transformation which could do the trick.

This is all because I want to build my core party around Jubilost, Linzi, Tristian and Amiri (Freebooter/Barb) at least and probably Valerie Feyspeaker as well. So, I thought, another melee character could benefit from this party.

Also the bab progression would be horrendous but I would use him as a caster and for touch attacks(melee and ranged if possible both) mainly while giving Outflank to other melees.

Also, considering the Grow Claws ability in conjuction with Magic Fang and Greater Magic Fang (Valerie) could be a good combo I guesS?
 
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Desiderius

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Play around with some different options yourself and let us know how it goes. If you’re playing Jewb you’ve already got the best controller in the game, just make sure you’ve got a bomb for each save and some high Perception and Trickery for Octavia and Reg’s quest.
 

cpmartins

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Just started playing this after Solasta and holy shit, the amount of builds you can do is just insane. I think I've spent more time creating my party with mercs than I did actually playing Solasta. One question, I'm in Chapter 2 and I know where
the troll fortress
is. If I go there and kill them will Chapter 3 start immediately? Cause I'm thinking about leaving them up to do some exploring and kingdom management.
 

Desiderius

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I do the opposite. The early KM projects that are generated by the problem of each chapter have mild DCs and can get you some extra points. Once the DCs get worse then I go.

The flip side of that is doing the trolls let’s you add that region to your kingdom.

The game timer goes by the curse (bald hilltop) not the chapter quests.
 

Sharpedge

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The reason I'm so tempted to go Ecclesitheiurge is I could prepare more of my domain spells, like boneshaker at low level, undeath to death/slay living at mid level and horrid wilting/wail of the banshee at high level, allowing me to just spam those instead of casting buffs and melee fighting like a normal cleric. I don't want my PC to be normal.

I'd lose quite a bit of melee damage over a standard cleric/fighter 1 but at 5th level my AC and AB are actually slightly better, without even having any bracers on. Plus the better synergy between Plumekith and Ecclesitheiuge/Monk than Lawbringer and Cleric/fighter allows me to get Dex 18 for +4 to hit in melee, compared to 16 STR for +3 (both with 19 starting WIS). I've not played the game at high levels but what I've read says spells > melee at high levels so I wanted more of those while still being able to melee because I don't like my main being a back line pussy. I don't pretend to know the game that well but I think there may be something there with my Monk/Eccy. I mean losing a caster level blows but he's going to have max possible WIS + greater spell focus and greater spell penetration. Surely those feats make up for one lost level when it comes to his spell DCs? Or do you need max possible everything to hit reliably at high level?

As for going 2h, I hate how the cape clips through the shield. It just drives me crazy.

Yeah, I really like this concept. I'd never tried the Monk splash on Tristian (since he's not Lawful) but it does make a big difference since you can't wear armor already due to your base class and you want to max WIS for that class too. Thinking maybe take the Monk splash at level 11 so you get Boneshatter on time and you pick up Wings then too so you can change your playstyle at that point to reflect the massive AC boost.

Here's what I went with:

View attachment 19794

Didn't get a shot of midcombat but there you pick up another +3 at least from Wings. Also missing the easy +2 Sacred Bonus from Blessing of the Faithful and Vestment shld be +4. If you want to go one-handed Pharasma gives you Dagger which allows Arcane Protector (+3 Dodge AC) which opens up Crane Wing and/or Deflect Arrows as well. Alternatively Elf opens up the sick mid-game Longswords for same approach and gives you free Spell Pen and Perception boost. Traditional Monk also makes Perception a class skill and gives you +2 Will.

View attachment 19795

I went with base Aasimar because the extra CHR gives you more Channels with higher DC and is good on MC, especially if you go with Dazzling Display when you're not casting. DD is kind of a nonbo with Crane Style since you have to attack to turn on Fighting Defensively bonuses.

View attachment 19796

The most fun thing about Ecclesitheurge is all the interesting Domain spells you get access to. Most of the good ones from Pharasma are from Water and Knowledge so you can't spam them but Scare and Circle of Death are both outstanding (especially if you're focusing on Necromancy) and usually not available to Clerics.

Undeath to Death is awesome vs Ghosts and Cold spells vs Fae so everything here is pretty good.

View attachment 19797

This means you don't have to keep Death Wards memorized all the time and just throw this up when you need this effect, freeing up spell slots. Several interesting and unique abilities for this build.

View attachment 19798

The one thing I think you'll find a little disappointing is the Negative Channeling, since only way to boost DC is Charisma and there's no way to maximize/empower it. Compare to the spell at the right. AoE damage is always something to keep in mind but you'll often have better uses for your Standard Actions.

View attachment 19799

Like attacking. With that Monk splash you can Flurry with Monk weapons and there are some very useful Quarterstaves that enhance your spellcasting. DEX-based melee isn't a great fit for any class that has access to the incomparable Frightful Aspect, so Weapon Finesse and trying to get DEX very high initially doesn't have much of a payoff.
I actually did a solo run with a build like this. It went fairly well, I ended up taking the animal and community domains, but the fire domain is also an excellent choice for a solo based character because it gives you access to fiery body. I think I would probably build it differently in a group though and would probably ditch the animal domain for something else.
 

Desiderius

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Just started playing this after Solasta and holy shit, the amount of builds you can do is just insane. I think I've spent more time creating my party with mercs than I did actually playing Solasta. One question, I'm in Chapter 2 and I know where
the troll fortress
is. If I go there and kill them will Chapter 3 start immediately? Cause I'm thinking about leaving them up to do some exploring and kingdom management.

The game’s designed around companions so you miss out on a lot of content with mercs including quests that give a lot of exp and some of the best equipment.
 

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