Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Bloodeyes]

If you really wanted to make this your go-to strategy against hard targets, you'd probably omit TWF since that way you can use Spell Combat to cast this spell then make a full-round attack with your main hand. And more levels of Scion would be useful since you get more casts per day. Maybe Rog 1/Aldori Defender 1/Scion 18. But you could just go straight Scion, those dips are only for proficiencies & bonus feats.

So without spoiling anything, does the game end at 16-17 with normal play? Or is level 20 a reasonable expectation? Old Reddit threads and youtubers say the former, but every build guide I read goes up to 20. Not great sources so I'm not sure how far to plan. It affects how many feats I get, how much I'm comfortable delaying core build features and how I choose my initial stats (getting 4 points vs 5).

 

[Yosharian]

If you really wanted to make this your go-to strategy against hard targets, you'd probably omit TWF since that way you can use Spell Combat to cast this spell then make a full-round attack with your main hand. And more levels of Scion would be useful since you get more casts per day. Maybe Rog 1/Aldori Defender 1/Scion 18. But you could just go straight Scion, those dips are only for proficiencies & bonus feats.

So without spoiling anything, does the game end at 16-17 with normal play? Or is level 20 a reasonable expectation? Old Reddit threads and youtubers say the former, but every build guide I read goes up to 20. Not great sources so I'm not sure how far to plan. It affects how many feats I get, how much I'm comfortable delaying core build features and how I choose my initial stats (getting 4 points vs 5).

Weeeell I play with a mod that boosts endgame XP but I think you can comfortably hit level 19 if you do everything.

Personally I want to hit 20 and enjoy being there so I use a mod. But I THINK you can hit 20 just about by endgame anyway, now.

 

[Desiderius]

Probably need to massage the experience sharing to get to 20 but 19 should be feasible and certainly 18 by House.

 

[Yosharian]

I can't believe I never thought of abusing Icy Prison for the Magus' 5th/6th-level slots before. This is perfect. An actually good hybrid caster/melee gish build. And perfect for Chaotic alignment since you lose the monk robes anyway.

 

[Arthandas]

People can solo this game on Unfair

Soloing can be easier than playing with full party. Also, they do this with min maxed vivi/monk/whatever else twinks, I prefer pure/prestige classes only.

big part of the game design is bring different party compositions for different purposes so you end up playing all the companions if you play the game as designed and thus effectively.

Fair point. I'm just accustomed to marrying my party and never using anyone outside it.

You’re also missing your best character.

I don't like Valerie, I'd rather roll TSS myself. Speaking of which... what would be a good stat distribution and feats on human 10 TSS/10 stalwart defender?

 

[Bloodeyes]

I'm trying to build this to 10. What is a Fetchling? Is that a modded race?

 

[Yosharian]

I'm trying to build this to 10. What is a Fetchling? Is that a modded race?

It's all on my steam page, but yes, it's from a mod called Races Unleashed.

 

[Desiderius]

People can solo this game on Unfair

Soloing can be easier than playing with full party. Also, they do this with min maxed vivi/monk/whatever else twinks, I prefer pure/prestige classes only.

big part of the game design is bring different party compositions for different purposes so you end up playing all the companions if you play the game as designed and thus effectively.

Fair point. I'm just accustomed to marrying my party and never using anyone outside it.

You’re also missing your best character.

I don't like Valerie, I'd rather roll TSS myself. Speaking of which... what would be a good stat distribution and feats on human 10 TSS/10 stalwart defender?

I wasn't talking about Valerie, although you can make her fulfill a similar function. Soloing isn't easier in P:K.

You'd want to do TSS11 to get the Touch. Never got around to trying that since the other four Val builds were so good, but I'd imagine it would be better than I initially gave it credit for as well. Though the movement restriction could be a pain.

 

[Arthandas]

You'd want to do TSS11 to get the Touch.

Isn't touch defense at lv9?

 

[Stoned Ape]

So because I kind of started getting interested in this build, I fleshed it out a bit

Spoiler

The Fop [The Baron]
Classes: Eldritch Scion 20
Role: Melee damage, disables (DEX/CHA)
Race: Fetchling (Shadow Agent)
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Deity: Calistria
Point buy: 25

• STR: 10
  
• DEX: 19 (+2) [+5 increase = 24]
  
• CON: 14
  
• INT: 10
  
• WIS: 10
  
• CHA: 16 (+2)

Skills: (2/level)

• Persuasion: skill checks
  
• Perception: skill checks

Camp role: Guard

Endgame Equipment:

• Main Hand: Bloodhound (+5 Dueling Sword, +2 stacking damage on subsequent hits)
• Armor: Robes of Water (+2 Spell DC on Cold-tagged spells e.g. Icy Prison)
• Belt: Belt of Physical Perfection (+8 Enhancement to STR/DEX/CON)
• Ring1: Ring of Blur (Permanent Blur spell)
• Ring2: Ring of Circumstances (+2 Circumstance bonus to CHA/DEX, +1 DC/AC)
• Wrist: Bracers of Armor +8 (+8 Armor bonus)
• Special: Bokken's Elixir (Permanent +2 Inherent bonus to all ability scores)
• Trinket: Rod of Flaming Vengeance (+3 to Evocation DC, +1 caster level, Maximise 5/day)

Feats & Abilities (*: bonus feat, italics: important ability):
L01 Eldritch Scion 1: Weapon Finesse
L02 Eldritch Scion 2: -
L03 Eldritch Scion 3: Spell Focus (Evocation)
L04 Eldritch Scion 4: -
L05 Eldritch Scion 5: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Dueling Sword), Weapon Focus (Dueling Sword)*
L06 Eldritch Scion 6: -
L07 Eldritch Scion 7: Outflank
L08 Eldritch Scion 8: -
L09 Eldritch Scion 9: Greater Spell Focus (Evocation), New Arcana (Sense Vitals)
L10 Eldritch Scion 10: -
L11 Eldritch Scion 11: Arcane Strike, Dazzling Display*
L12 Eldritch Scion 12: -
L13 Eldritch Scion 13: Elemental Focus (Cold), New Arcana (Icy Prison)
L14 Eldritch Scion 14: -
L15 Eldritch Scion 15: Shatter Defences, School Power: Evocation
L16 Eldritch Scion 16: -
L17 Eldritch Scion 17: Metamagic (Heighten), Combat Reflexes*, New Arcana (Echolocation)
L18 Eldritch Scion 18: -
L19 Eldritch Scion 19: Greater Elemental Focus (Cold)
L20 Eldritch Scion 20: True Magus

Your potential DC on Icy Prison:

• +10 Base
  
• +9 28 Charisma (16 base, +8 Enhancement, +2 Bokken's Elixir, +2 Ring of Circumstances)
  
• +1 Ring of Circumstances
  
• +2 Robe of Water (Cold)
  
• +2 Elemental Focus (Cold)
  
• +2 Spell Focus feats (Evocation)
  
• +3 Rod of Flaming Vengeance (Evocation)
  
• +2 School Power (Evocation)
• +2 True Magus
  
• +5-6 Spell level (Icy Prison)

DC 38-39

That DC is actually really impressive and would pretty much work on any enemy in the game I suspect. This character doesn't do an insane amount of damage but it's extremely solid, and with permanent Displacement from the Fetchling race, its relatively low AC doesn't matter so much.

Hell, I'd play this character.

Is it worth getting Slashing Grace for your dueling sword instead of Arcane Strike at lvl 11? Think it'd add a bit of extra damage overall.

 

[Yosharian]

So because I kind of started getting interested in this build, I fleshed it out a bit

Spoiler

The Fop [The Baron]
Classes: Eldritch Scion 20
Role: Melee damage, disables (DEX/CHA)
Race: Fetchling (Shadow Agent)
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Deity: Calistria
Point buy: 25

• STR: 10
  
• DEX: 19 (+2) [+5 increase = 24]
  
• CON: 14
  
• INT: 10
  
• WIS: 10
  
• CHA: 16 (+2)

Skills: (2/level)

• Persuasion: skill checks
  
• Perception: skill checks

Camp role: Guard

Endgame Equipment:

• Main Hand: Bloodhound (+5 Dueling Sword, +2 stacking damage on subsequent hits)
• Armor: Robes of Water (+2 Spell DC on Cold-tagged spells e.g. Icy Prison)
• Belt: Belt of Physical Perfection (+8 Enhancement to STR/DEX/CON)
• Ring1: Ring of Blur (Permanent Blur spell)
• Ring2: Ring of Circumstances (+2 Circumstance bonus to CHA/DEX, +1 DC/AC)
• Wrist: Bracers of Armor +8 (+8 Armor bonus)
• Special: Bokken's Elixir (Permanent +2 Inherent bonus to all ability scores)
• Trinket: Rod of Flaming Vengeance (+3 to Evocation DC, +1 caster level, Maximise 5/day)

Feats & Abilities (*: bonus feat, italics: important ability):
L01 Eldritch Scion 1: Weapon Finesse
L02 Eldritch Scion 2: -
L03 Eldritch Scion 3: Spell Focus (Evocation)
L04 Eldritch Scion 4: -
L05 Eldritch Scion 5: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Dueling Sword), Weapon Focus (Dueling Sword)*
L06 Eldritch Scion 6: -
L07 Eldritch Scion 7: Outflank
L08 Eldritch Scion 8: -
L09 Eldritch Scion 9: Greater Spell Focus (Evocation), New Arcana (Sense Vitals)
L10 Eldritch Scion 10: -
L11 Eldritch Scion 11: Arcane Strike, Dazzling Display*
L12 Eldritch Scion 12: -
L13 Eldritch Scion 13: Elemental Focus (Cold), New Arcana (Icy Prison)
L14 Eldritch Scion 14: -
L15 Eldritch Scion 15: Shatter Defences, School Power: Evocation
L16 Eldritch Scion 16: -
L17 Eldritch Scion 17: Metamagic (Heighten), Combat Reflexes*, New Arcana (Echolocation)
L18 Eldritch Scion 18: -
L19 Eldritch Scion 19: Greater Elemental Focus (Cold)
L20 Eldritch Scion 20: True Magus

Your potential DC on Icy Prison:

• +10 Base
  
• +9 28 Charisma (16 base, +8 Enhancement, +2 Bokken's Elixir, +2 Ring of Circumstances)
  
• +1 Ring of Circumstances
  
• +2 Robe of Water (Cold)
  
• +2 Elemental Focus (Cold)
  
• +2 Spell Focus feats (Evocation)
  
• +3 Rod of Flaming Vengeance (Evocation)
  
• +2 School Power (Evocation)
• +2 True Magus
  
• +5-6 Spell level (Icy Prison)

DC 38-39

That DC is actually really impressive and would pretty much work on any enemy in the game I suspect. This character doesn't do an insane amount of damage but it's extremely solid, and with permanent Displacement from the Fetchling race, its relatively low AC doesn't matter so much.

Hell, I'd play this character.

Is it worth getting Slashing Grace for your dueling sword instead of Arcane Strike at lvl 11? Think it'd add a bit of extra damage overall.

No, because Bloodhound already has Agile on it. Unless they stack, for some insane reason.

 

[Stoned Ape]

No, because Bloodhound already has Agile on it. Unless they stack, for some insane reason.

Good point! I was thinking more from the perspective of a non-gear dependent character (for example if I wanted to use it in Beneath the Stolen Lands with it's random treasure drops)

 

[Yosharian]

No, because Bloodhound already has Agile on it. Unless they stack, for some insane reason.

Good point! I was thinking more from the perspective of a non-gear dependent character (for example if I wanted to use it in Beneath the Stolen Lands with it's random treasure drops)

Well in that case you'd probably drop one of the other feats, Arcane Strike is quite a damage buff so it's not optimal to drop that.

But if I wasn't playing the main campaign I doubt I'd marry myself to one weapon type at all, I mean you never know what will drop in the random dungeon.

I guess you HAVE to pick one in order to get access to Shatter Defences, though.

 

[Desiderius]

You'd want to do TSS11 to get the Touch.

Isn't touch defense at lv9?

Probably. I may have gotten it backwards. Let me check.

Confirmed. 11 gets the third Armor/Shield Training which I thought for a long time got the Massive Tower Shield Armor check penalty down to a manageable level but I think we found out that it only ticks down one per, so TSS nine is a fine breaking point (or ten for the Bonus Feat). Pure TSS ends up being fine as well since the can't be flanked at level 13 is good and the Evasion isn't bad either.

 

[Bloodeyes]

While Yosharian was making a no doubt superior build, here's what I cooked up using the Elf katana and my original build.

Human

Str: 13

Dex: 18 (22)

Con: 13 (14)

Int: 7

Wis: 7

Cha: 18

1.(Thug) Toughness + Power attack + Weapon finesse (Rogue bonus)

2. (Thug bonus feat) Combat trick – Elven curve blade proficiency

3. (Thug) Curve blade focus + Finesse training

4.(Fey blooded sorc) Enchantment focus (bonus feat)

5. Arcane strike? I dunno. Just not accomplished sneak attacker.

6. Sorc

7. (Sorc) Dazzling display

8. Arcane trickster now to 17

9. Curnoden smash

11. Shatter defenses

13. Combat reflexes

15. Greater enchantment focus

17. Improved critical curve blade

19. Critical focus

I like that it does a debuff with brutal beating and at endgame gets another one with curnoden smash + Shatter defenses (edit actually it should get this at 11). Fey bloodline raises the DC of compulsion spells by +2 and I found a cape that raises enchantment by +1. There are likely better items for that as well. It wouldn't work on unfair with the high saves but I think it will work on challenging. Don't know about hard. I don't like dumping Wis but it's needed for Dex and Cha. Will save is +6 at level 10 with a ring of luck +1 on. Would be +5 with a different ring. Not great but some in my party have worse in +2 capes so I can live with it. It's doubtless far weaker than what he came up with but I'm going to play it because it's something I came up with myself.

Edit: Fixed feat order. I didn't account for BAB loss from multiclassing.

Edit 2: There was a mistake in this build. It only gets 3d6 sneak attack damage at level 10 because it only has 6 rogue levels. So accomplished sneak attacker was a wasted feat. With basic buffs and a masterwork weapon is getting +17 attack. Meh. I'm just going to play a fucking Magus with an estoc after all. There will be other things I missed. I quit multiclassing. Not good enough at it.

 

[Desiderius]

No, because Bloodhound already has Agile on it. Unless they stack, for some insane reason.

Good point! I was thinking more from the perspective of a non-gear dependent character (for example if I wanted to use it in Beneath the Stolen Lands with it's random treasure drops)

There's also what to do for the fifteen levels before you get Bloodhound. Arcane Strike eats your Swift Action every round and doesn't add that much damage. It's good in CotW if you're taking Riving Strike or the other one (usually on Bloodrager).

 

[mediocrepoet]

You can hit 20 in the end game if you're a completionist, no grinding required. However, you hit it super late, like last few hours of the game late.

EDIT: Oh yeah, no you don't have to abuse the XP sharing for this either. Besides, that's basically cheating. Why not just use the console to add XPs at that point?

 

[Desiderius]

Trapfinding is Rogue levels. So ES 20 gets +10 Perception which is pretty sweet and with your Sneaks from Vitals ends up with more Sneak Dice than Vivi. Pretty sure AT Sneaks would be d8 if you start with KM. Straight KM scaling AC bonus vs light weapons does come up.

There are classes in PF that already do what you’re trying to accomplish without having to pull your hair out with finding the perfect blend of multi-classes. ES is my favorite but of course you’ve also got Vivi and Sword Saint.

I guess. A premade class would probably do a better job than I can. I'd get so much more satisfaction making something of my own that equals a premade class than just playing the premade though, if I can achieve it.

So far I have amazing breakthroughs only to discover one detail I missed that fucks everything up. Like the Sylvan Sorc's Leopard not levelling when you go arcane trickster. That build was amazing to level 10, a dream come true that should just be a class Owlcat if you're reading this! You put a bardbarian in Wrath for god's sake. If I can't make it work I'll just give up and play ES. So far I'm seeing this build doesn't add DEX to damage until level 7. That's not too long to wait, but the prologue would be hell unless I find an agile Kukri. It's also stuck with 12 con and no toughness until level 9

If I do give up and use a stock class I'll call him anything other than Lematte. This character, as much as I love him, has only ever been a huge disappointment. He's like a good for nothing son to me.

Yeah I mean the philosophy of PF was that people got so obsessed with multi-classing (and often didn't get the trade-offs very well evaluated) in 3.5 that it would be better to just give them hybrid classes to accomplish the same thing to free up all those creative energies for figuring out different Feat choices and party compositions and play tactics etc...

Owlcat hasn't done the ebst job getting out the memo but I think that's some of the rationale for making the companions better suited for single-classing in Wrath.

 

[Yosharian]

You're going to be disappointed when you reach endgame and find that most enemies are immune to Enchantment, and the ones that aren't easily resist your pathetic spell DC. but you do you!

 

[Desiderius]

You can hit 20 in the end game if you're a completionist, no grinding required. However, you hit it super late, like last few hours of the game late.

EDIT: Oh yeah, no you don't have to abuse the XP sharing for this either. Besides, that's basically cheating. Why not just use the console to add XPs at that point?

I mean not really. You can turn on Skill-users get all experience for skill checks and make your main your Trickery and Persuasion specialist to get the same effect. That's more realistic that the default.

Likewise the default divides experience six ways before you have six companions so that isn't very realistic either. You can look at it as the down-payment on companions getting experience later even when they aren't in the party but no it's not like cheating to do it the other way.

 

[Desiderius]

You're going to be disappointed when you reach endgame and find that most enemies are immune to Enchantment, and the ones that aren't easily resist your pathetic spell DC. but you do you!

At least you can own much of Pitax. I like that Fey Sorc splash on Linzi.

 

[Yosharian]

That's... that's actually a good point. Quick +2 to Spell DCs, even though you're dumping a caster level... Interesting.

Wooo this is actually a REALLY good dip on a Bard. INTERESTING.

 

[mediocrepoet]

You can hit 20 in the end game if you're a completionist, no grinding required. However, you hit it super late, like last few hours of the game late.

EDIT: Oh yeah, no you don't have to abuse the XP sharing for this either. Besides, that's basically cheating. Why not just use the console to add XPs at that point?

I mean not really. You can turn on Skill-users get all experience for skill checks and make your main your Trickery and Persuasion specialist to get the same effect. That's more realistic that the default.

Likewise the default divides experience six ways before you have six companions so that isn't very realistic either. You can look at it as the down-payment on companions getting experience later even when they aren't in the party but no it's not like cheating to do it the other way.

Ok, cheater.

Either way, however you want to justify your degenerate try hard "tactics", the answer remains that it's not required to hit level 20 before the end of the game.

 

[Yosharian]

Imagine not sneaking into Farnirras' chamber and stealing all his loot as soon as you unlock Lonely Barrow

Fifteen levels my ass

 

[Efe]

you will probably end game at lv19.