Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Yosharian]

Enchantment Spell DC Breakdown:

• +10 Base
  
• +11 Charisma
  
• +2 Spell Focus feats (Enchantment)
  
• +1 Enchanter's Cape (Enchantment)
  
• +2 Maya's Charm (Enchantment & Illusion)
  
• +2 Ring of Reckless Courage (Mind-affecting)
  
• +2 Fey Bloodline Arcana (Compulsion)
  
• +1-6 Spell Level
  
  • DC 36 (Overwhelming Presence)

Hell yes

 

[Bloodeyes]

I gave up completely and made him a single class thug. It's actually awesome. He's got 6 skills including use magic device so wands and scrolls would work for personal buffs if he's alone for some reason. When he's not Jubilost, Linzi and Harrim can buff him. OMG the feats! The simplicity! It's such a relief. This is my first actual rogue but here's what I've done:

Human
Str: 13 (14 if get 20 point. Who cares what happens after 20 anyway? Game's over)
Dex: 20 (24)
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha:14

1. Power attack, toughness, bonus feat finesse
2. Martial weapons prof
3. Two weapon fighting
4. Kukri focus
5. Double slice
6. Dazzling display
7. Cornugon smash
8. Improved two weapon fighting
9. Shatter defenses
10. Double debilitation

Skills:
Mobility
Trickery
Stealth
Perception
Persuasion
Use magic device
All get the max possible with my stats.

Honestly I just picked feats that seemed good with no plan and it's better than anything I have made lately. Certainly any multiclass build I've made. This will do. This will more than do! I don't think I need to plan the rest really. Improved critical, critical focus and staggering critical seem like obvious choices, as does greater two-weapon fighting. Other than that I'll just take whatever advanced rogue talents seem cool.

 

[Desiderius]

Thug’s a good one.

If you’re critting shit should already be dead, and there’s a save on top of that. I’ll never understand why people think those fears are so good.

Most of the things you think are obvious aren’t.

 

[Yosharian]

Like I said a bunch of pages ago, Pathfinder is a game of specialization

 

[Desiderius]

Enchantment Spell DC Breakdown:

• +10 Base
  
• +11 Charisma
  
• +2 Spell Focus feats (Enchantment)
  
• +1 Enchanter's Cape (Enchantment)
  
• +2 Maya's Charm (Enchantment & Illusion)
  
• +2 Ring of Reckless Courage (Mind-affecting)
  
• +2 Fey Bloodline Arcana (Compulsion)
  
• +1-6 Spell Level
  • DC 36 (Overwhelming Presence)

Hell yes

She can get to +12 CHR from companion quest I think.

 

[Yosharian]

I love that you think I'm actually using Linzi, cute

 

[Desiderius]

I don’t, but you should be.

 

[Yosharian]

I gave up completely and made him a single class thug. It's actually awesome. He's got 6 skills including use magic device so wands and scrolls would work for personal buffs if he's alone for some reason. When he's not Jubilost, Linzi and Harrim can buff him. OMG the feats! The simplicity! It's such a relief. This is my first actual rogue but here's what I've done:

Human
Str: 13 (14 if get 20 point. Who cares what happens after 20 anyway? Game's over)
Dex: 20 (24)
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha:14

1. Power attack, toughness, bonus feat finesse
2. Martial weapons prof
3. Two weapon fighting
4. Kukri focus
5. Double slice
6. Dazzling display
7. Cornugon smash
8. Improved two weapon fighting
9. Shatter defenses
10. Double debilitation

Skills:
Mobility
Trickery
Stealth
Perception
Persuasion
Use magic device
All get the max possible with my stats.

Honestly I just picked feats that seemed good with no plan and it's better than anything I have made lately. Certainly any multiclass build I've made. This will do. This will more than do! I don't think I need to plan the rest really. Improved critical, critical focus and staggering critical seem like obvious choices, as does greater two-weapon fighting. Other than that I'll just take whatever advanced rogue talents seem cool.

Staggering Critical is absolutely fine but do bear in mind it has a saving throw, and the DC is based off your BAB so it doesn't scale very well.

Exhausting Critical doesn't have a save which is why I prefer it

 

[Desiderius]

It’s not fine you’re blowing two Feats to give something you’ve already critted (thus setting off a crit chain) -3 AB/AC. You’ve got WAY more important things to be doing with your Feats.

 

[Desiderius]

You use it on Linzi because Enchantment is way better in Ch 6 than it is in Ch 7.

 

[Nano]

I don’t, but you should be.

Linzi's 16 CHA is pathetic for a DC-focused caster. An MC Bard is much better.

 

[Desiderius]

She doesn’t have 16 CHR, plus she gets the extra 2 from her Quest. Point being you can blow her wad on Ch 6 and not worry about Ch7.

So +11 not +12. Close enough. If you play well you can afford two Rings of Circumstances and she gets the first one for Ch6 then you have 2 for House. You want an Enchantment Bard (Linzi) for default stuff then an Evo Bard (Val, Reg, or Jae) for Womb, Tombs, and House.

 

[Bloodeyes]

A basic question. I did google this first. Do I need combat casting on my sword saint? I've never bothered with this before because I always just take a 5 foot step then cast. There are a lot of things I could pack in this build and I'm not sure I have room for it. Some threads I've seen say you eventually start passing concentration automatically, some say you need the feat for a melee caster. I don't want to really. There's a few different things I could take - metamagic empower, metamagic maximize, spell focus, elemental focus. Shit even getting greater weapon focus would add damage to my blade. Combat casting won't so unless I'll be eating shit every time I try to use spell combat I'd like to leave it out.

Yes, I'm a sword saint now. Yes I know it's not the strongest class in the game. I love it though.

 

[Desiderius]

Regongar starts with it. Make of that what you will. There is no strongest class.

 

[Bloodeyes]

Yosharian I'm playing a magus, sword saint. I took inspiration from your build but had to make it my own. I'll be using icy prison for sure. I notice your don't have combat casting in your build. Does this mean it's not essential for using spellstrike/spell combat? Because these are so many other feats that are more exciting.

 

[Yosharian]

Yosharian I'm playing a magus, sword saint. I took inspiration from your build but had to make it my own. I'll be using icy prison for sure. I notice your don't have combat casting in your build. Does this mean it's not essential for using spellstrike/spell combat? Because these are so many other feats that are more exciting.

Here's the thing with defensive casting, at the start of the game it's definitely a thing that you need more of, but the way the bonuses scale, once you get past a certain level you tend to automatically succeed at these checks.

It'd be a different thing if getting hit while in the act of casting a spell was a thing, but it generally isn't in this game.

Anyway long story short you just don't need that feat

 

[Desiderius]

It is a thing but it’s weird in that sometimes or even most of the time the spell still goes off? I’ve had better luck recently forcing failed Concentration Checks but unless you take the new Fighter Feats in Wrath (Arcane Bloodline Bloodrager specializes in this) it’s not easy to consistently do, which means going the other way it’s more convenience than must have.

The DC of the check goes up double by spell level so if you’re just spamming low level spells you end up passing it but if you’re going to try to fire off Icy Prisons it can continue to be an issue.

 

[Mortmal]

I gave up completely and made him a single class thug. It's actually awesome. He's got 6 skills including use magic device so wands and scrolls would work for personal buffs if he's alone for some reason. When he's not Jubilost, Linzi and Harrim can buff him. OMG the feats! The simplicity! It's such a relief. This is my first actual rogue but here's what I've done:

Human
Str: 13 (14 if get 20 point. Who cares what happens after 20 anyway? Game's over)
Dex: 20 (24)
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha:14

1. Power attack, toughness, bonus feat finesse
2. Martial weapons prof
3. Two weapon fighting
4. Kukri focus
5. Double slice
6. Dazzling display
7. Cornugon smash
8. Improved two weapon fighting
9. Shatter defenses
10. Double debilitation

Skills:
Mobility
Trickery
Stealth
Perception
Persuasion
Use magic device
All get the max possible with my stats.

Honestly I just picked feats that seemed good with no plan and it's better than anything I have made lately. Certainly any multiclass build I've made. This will do. This will more than do! I don't think I need to plan the rest really. Improved critical, critical focus and staggering critical seem like obvious choices, as does greater two-weapon fighting. Other than that I'll just take whatever advanced rogue talents seem cool.

In fact rather than power attack and cornugon smash you could just usually use lizzie applying shaken automatically with dirge of doom, this is just too good to not use .You should keep weapon focus -> dazzling display -> shatter defenses on any melee char and pick vital strike instead of cornugon smash for exemple . You dont even need to raise cha and persuasion.

 

[Desiderius]

I gave up completely and made him a single class thug. It's actually awesome. He's got 6 skills including use magic device so wands and scrolls would work for personal buffs if he's alone for some reason. When he's not Jubilost, Linzi and Harrim can buff him. OMG the feats! The simplicity! It's such a relief. This is my first actual rogue but here's what I've done:

Human
Str: 13 (14 if get 20 point. Who cares what happens after 20 anyway? Game's over)
Dex: 20 (24)
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha:14

1. Power attack, toughness, bonus feat finesse
2. Martial weapons prof
3. Two weapon fighting
4. Kukri focus
5. Double slice
6. Dazzling display
7. Cornugon smash
8. Improved two weapon fighting
9. Shatter defenses
10. Double debilitation

Skills:
Mobility
Trickery
Stealth
Perception
Persuasion
Use magic device
All get the max possible with my stats.

Honestly I just picked feats that seemed good with no plan and it's better than anything I have made lately. Certainly any multiclass build I've made. This will do. This will more than do! I don't think I need to plan the rest really. Improved critical, critical focus and staggering critical seem like obvious choices, as does greater two-weapon fighting. Other than that I'll just take whatever advanced rogue talents seem cool.

In fact rather than power attack and cornugon smash you could just usually use lizzie applying shaken automatically with dirge of doom, this is just too good to not use .You should keep weapon focus -> dazzling display -> shatter defenses on any melee char and pick vital strike instead of cornugon smash for exemple . You dont even need to raise cha and persuasion.

Yeah that isn’t really worth it anymore since you have to turn off Inspire Courage to turn on Dirge. Used to be able to use Linger to stack them. Frightful Aspect also has the auto-Shaken but that’s 8th level spell. In Wrath made save on Fear also gives Shaken for a turn.

Or you can just use legit means like Dreadful, Cornugan, Dazzling, and Demoralize.

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

I gave up completely and made him a single class thug. It's actually awesome. He's got 6 skills including use magic device so wands and scrolls would work for personal buffs if he's alone for some reason. When he's not Jubilost, Linzi and Harrim can buff him. OMG the feats! The simplicity! It's such a relief. This is my first actual rogue but here's what I've done:

Human
Str: 13 (14 if get 20 point. Who cares what happens after 20 anyway? Game's over)
Dex: 20 (24)
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha:14

1. Power attack, toughness, bonus feat finesse
2. Martial weapons prof
3. Two weapon fighting
4. Kukri focus
5. Double slice
6. Dazzling display
7. Cornugon smash
8. Improved two weapon fighting
9. Shatter defenses
10. Double debilitation

Skills:
Mobility
Trickery
Stealth
Perception
Persuasion
Use magic device
All get the max possible with my stats.

Honestly I just picked feats that seemed good with no plan and it's better than anything I have made lately. Certainly any multiclass build I've made. This will do. This will more than do! I don't think I need to plan the rest really. Improved critical, critical focus and staggering critical seem like obvious choices, as does greater two-weapon fighting. Other than that I'll just take whatever advanced rogue talents seem cool.

In fact rather than power attack and cornugon smash you could just usually use lizzie applying shaken automatically with dirge of doom, this is just too good to not use .You should keep weapon focus -> dazzling display -> shatter defenses on any melee char and pick vital strike instead of cornugon smash for exemple . You dont even need to raise cha and persuasion.

Yeah that isn’t really worth it anymore since you have to turn off Inspire Courage to turn on Dirge. Used to be able to use Linger to stack them. Frightful Aspect also has the auto-Shaken but that’s 8th level spell. In Wrath made save on Fear also gives Shaken for a turn.

Or you can just use legit means like Dreadful, Cornugan, Dazzling, and Demoralize.

Or maybe two bards. I like doing the Valerie bard/tank build for example and just have her dirge while tanking since her position makes that convenient. Then you have linzi or maybe a merc bard do Inspire Courage and dazzle spam.

 

[Desiderius]

Yeah I like the idea of having Linzi be an Enchantment Bard and then having another Evocation Bard since the Sonic spells are so good in House and do better in Womb and the Tombs as well.

Shatter is fine if it's available but not worth warping your whole game around tho. If you want it yeah you could probably go two Bards but then you lose some of the benefit of having exactly one (access to the Bard unique spells like Good Hope).

 

[Mortmal]

I gave up completely and made him a single class thug. It's actually awesome. He's got 6 skills including use magic device so wands and scrolls would work for personal buffs if he's alone for some reason. When he's not Jubilost, Linzi and Harrim can buff him. OMG the feats! The simplicity! It's such a relief. This is my first actual rogue but here's what I've done:

Human
Str: 13 (14 if get 20 point. Who cares what happens after 20 anyway? Game's over)
Dex: 20 (24)
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha:14

1. Power attack, toughness, bonus feat finesse
2. Martial weapons prof
3. Two weapon fighting
4. Kukri focus
5. Double slice
6. Dazzling display
7. Cornugon smash
8. Improved two weapon fighting
9. Shatter defenses
10. Double debilitation

Skills:
Mobility
Trickery
Stealth
Perception
Persuasion
Use magic device
All get the max possible with my stats.

Honestly I just picked feats that seemed good with no plan and it's better than anything I have made lately. Certainly any multiclass build I've made. This will do. This will more than do! I don't think I need to plan the rest really. Improved critical, critical focus and staggering critical seem like obvious choices, as does greater two-weapon fighting. Other than that I'll just take whatever advanced rogue talents seem cool.

In fact rather than power attack and cornugon smash you could just usually use lizzie applying shaken automatically with dirge of doom, this is just too good to not use .You should keep weapon focus -> dazzling display -> shatter defenses on any melee char and pick vital strike instead of cornugon smash for exemple . You dont even need to raise cha and persuasion.

Yeah that isn’t really worth it anymore since you have to turn off Inspire Courage to turn on Dirge. Used to be able to use Linger to stack them. Frightful Aspect also has the auto-Shaken but that’s 8th level spell. In Wrath made save on Fear also gives Shaken for a turn.

Or you can just use legit means like Dreadful, Cornugan, Dazzling, and Demoralize.

There's a big difference still, no saves at all and instant on everyone , you can min max melee character with 20 str and 5 charisma from the beggining and get better feats . Bard is a character i'd use in any party for that alone, then the buffs. Have to install the autobuffer mod , else its too much work.
It's one of the few must have you get very early, like mirror image for melee characters and the haste spell .

 

[Mortmal]

Desiderius if you want more advice dont be shy and ask, you might even be able to finish the game someday.

 

[Yosharian]

I used to rush Shatter Defences but the truth is that in most situations it's easier to just use Inspire Courage than Dirge of Doom. Dirge requires all targets to be in range so it's usable later in the turn, while Inspire Courage can be set off right at the start.

It's also feat intensive to get Shatter so early. I get it around level 15 when Frightful Aspect is coming online and that feels fine to me.

That said I am finding my first playthrough without any animal companions extremely challenging so I guess if you do rush it, there are still significant advantages. Insane stats + scaling mod makes enemies so much tougher it's unbelievable.

As for concentration checks, they are more of a thing in PnP because enemies can use trigger attacks like 'attack anyone who I think is casting a spell' so just casting defensively (which as I said eventually becomes trivial to succeed at) alone just doesn't cut it, you actually need to be able to succeed at concentration checks when you get hit while casting.

Because Kingmaker doesn't let you prep trigger attacks, that never happens, so concentration check-related feats and abilities just aren't that important.

 

[Desiderius]

I've been shooting for Shatter at 15 too. Concentration comes up a lot more in RT but Sword Saint should be able to fade most of those attax by midgame at the latest in any event.