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Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

Bloodeyes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
2,912
As for Lead Blades, personally for that purpose I've installed Craft Magic Items mod and had Ekun craft LB wands for my main - it was the only purpose of this mod for me, I've used no other functionalities.
However short of using a ranger, the other "vanilla" method I've considered was a dip in Ecclessitheurge cleric of Torag with primary domain Artifice. That'd allow to cast Lead Blades a few times per day. Even better if you have a mod that has Traits/feats that raise Caster Level for specific spell/class.

Ecclesitheurge doesn't work as advertised. You only get one use of your domain spell per day. You can use spell recall, so 2 uses. The advantage is being able to choose any domain spell from your deity's domains at that level, instead of being limited to the ones you get from your chosen domains. It can be cheesed in some cases. Using a metamagic feat on a domain spell can raise it to a higher level and allow it to be prepared in regular slots at that level. But this doesn't work on all spells and is 100% an exploit so I don't do it.

I think I'll main a ranger in my next run for lead blades. I created a table of the buffs I want and can get them from 3 characters, not 4, if the magus loses her hellfire ray, changes her race and maxes INT instead of DEX:

sCefAea.png


This allows a third martial to be in the party. I'm doubtful I'd get enough bonus spells to give it to everyone, but I could at least put it on Duncan (probably as a 2H fighter next time) and Corpse Shitter (as a slayer next time). I was hoping to do a party with no animal companion, but the ranger will need share spells so he's getting a dog I guess.

As for legendary proportions, you've convinced me to keep it as a quickened reserve spell for surprise boss fights (all boss fights happen very suddenly), but for the aforementioned reasons I couldn't stand it as a walking around buff. Not sure who will be casting it. I could also just do the same thing with enlarge person, mass. Less damage output but hits everyone. Yes I'll do that. It wouldn't need to be quickened. I'll just use a rod.

I'll probably start that tomorrow. Today the current lot are going to go a bit deeper then retire alive (not sure if I mentioned this is ironman). They have killed their boss, hit max level and got almost perfect gear. There's not much left to do except go as deep as I can be bothered for a better starting bonus for the next lot. I do like to retire them, rather than run them to the death. I put a lot of effort into my characters. Not just their builds, them as characters. Some of them even have backstories. So I'd like to get them out alive and rich. They've earned it.

Of course CotW nerfed/fixed the Vital Strike, so its no longer possible to one-shot dragons and other bosses with it.
It gives with one hand and takes with the other in terms of adding and fixing brokenly OP shit.
- Monk AC bonus is capped at class level like sword saint AC bonus.
- Animal companions are now much weaker. They've been nerfed hard and aren't nearly as valuable in combat. They can take feats though, like outflank and improved critical (you level them manually). My leopard has very good trickery skill and can disarm traps on his turn if needed, but he's pretty shit in combat at high levels even wearing an amulet of mighty fists +5 that I bought him (yeah they can wear some items too).
- Create undead only creates one lousy skeleton and costs diamond dust to use. They did that spell dirty. It's useless now.
- Vital strike is less powerful but still a nice addition to any martial's toolbox.

But you get good stuff too:
- A spell that gives you complete immunity to arrow as an AOE on the party for minute/level with no drawback. Not DR. Outright immunity.
- You get a buff that lets you remove most (or all) of the negative to AB from power attack or piranha strike. For minute level as a level 1 spell.
- You get a buff that maxes crit damage every time as crits should be (referenced in above postings).
- You can equip any armour set without being proficient in it, but you take the armour check penalty as a negative to AB. Still, mithral armour often has no armour check penalty and effortless armour should remove the penalty altogether (so full plate without proficiency is viable, if you want to cast the buff).
- You get a spell that lets you make a character able to attack from reach without being enlarged as a minute/level, level 1 buff with any weapon type, even a dagger (long arm). Dual wielding reach knife master is a thing in this mod, if you use the most broken feature (bonded mind and share spells teamwork feats).
 
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Bloodeyes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
2,912
Jut checked my magus and her perfect critical was turned off. So she was critting *3 in the above images not *4 like she should. Whoops. I've turned that back on (but left perfect strike off. It's a sometimes food).

Here they all are, preserved for posterity before buffing up one last time and starting what will be their final journey into the dungeon before I retire them in triumph. I want them to get a few 100k gold in their pockets to go home to their families with.

FhUOAwH.png

5PgZL4d.png

3vhKL6Z.png

i48z8Uf.png

4sovc2S.png

gOKNLFQ.png

Z4yH5XT.png
 
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Haplo

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Sep 14, 2016
Messages
6,183
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
I'm pretty sure the Ecclessitheurge was working correctly. You just need to make sure your domain with preferred spells is in the Primary domain slot. AFAIR Tristan kinda sucked because his Primary domain is Good - and it mostly covers spells a cleric gets anyway (-> can put in any slot anyway). Should have been Fire or something.

And uh-oh I guess the itemization in Beneath the Stolen Lands really is rather lacklustre
BD4AE90B2EBB26672A36E25E522B1B814195B87C
 

Bloodeyes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
2,912
And uh-oh I guess the itemization in Beneath the Stolen Lands really is rather lacklustre

[/spoiler]
It's random drops. The items in the shop are randomized too, so gear dependent builds are not advisable. Everything must work without specific items. That's why I tested my alchemist to see if 18 base DEX was enough to keep hitting on 2's without his +5 to ranged gloves and gear's rule. Because next time he likely won't get either of those things.

You have to plan for having insufficient AC to tank that way. DR, CON, damage output, blur, displacement, mirror image reach usage etc more than cover for not having AC.

I've retired those characters now and they only had two deaths the whole run. Marigold died when I killed her on purpose by having Algernon cast implosion on her while trying to fix a bug. She died again to a surprise boss fight in a random room before I even knew what was happening. AC wouldn't have saved her, it was to an AoE spell.

Otherwise they've barely been tickled by anything they fought.

I'm not as enamored with AC as I once was because of this. I now dump DEX to 7 unless a character uses it to attack. I only care about what DEX does for my AB and initiative, so only the alchemist and sword saint prioritize it. Everyone else got a 7 or an 8 in DEX and it worked fine.

Using DR and CON works really well on hard (I've not played unfair, I'm starting to think I should) as does using concealment and just killing things before they can take away too many mirror images.

Edited to be a bit more concise
 
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SuperAlex

Barely Literate
Joined
Jan 28, 2022
Messages
1
Hello! Big noob, first time poster, but interested in learning!
Has anyone tried to do a 'horde' style Kingmaker gang, where each character has an animal companion? This might require call of the wild... When I gave it a look, a lot of my characters ended up with less than ideal skill distributions.
 

LannTheStupid

Товарищ
Patron
Joined
Nov 14, 2016
Messages
3,195
Location
Soviet Union
Pathfinder: Wrath
Hello! Big noob, first time poster, but interested in learning!
Has anyone tried to do a 'horde' style Kingmaker gang, where each character has an animal companion? This might require call of the wild... When I gave it a look, a lot of my characters ended up with less than ideal skill distributions.
1. Yes, it can be done without mods.
2. It can be done with the main hero and the group of mercenaries.
3. It can be done with the main hero and the story companions, because most of them join early.

As you stated "interested in learning" I would suggest closing the forum, opening the game and trying to make your horde.
 

Yosharian

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2018
Messages
9,517
Location
Grand Chien
Hello! Big noob, first time poster, but interested in learning!
Has anyone tried to do a 'horde' style Kingmaker gang, where each character has an animal companion? This might require call of the wild... When I gave it a look, a lot of my characters ended up with less than ideal skill distributions.
You'll get sick of it eventually because they require a lot of buffing
 

Bloodeyes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
2,912
Hello! Big noob, first time poster, but interested in learning!
Has anyone tried to do a 'horde' style Kingmaker gang, where each character has an animal companion? This might require call of the wild... When I gave it a look, a lot of my characters ended up with less than ideal skill distributions.

It doesn't require CoTW, in fact I'd recommend against using that otherwise excellent mod for what you're planning. CoTW does allow any class to take an animal companion by taking Skill focus: Lore nature (prerequisite), Animal ally (At level 5) and then boon companion ASAP to get the thing up to level. This is true. So you can play classes that were not meant to have animals single class, without playing nerfed subclass versions. But there's a catch.

Animal companions are nerfed by the mod. Big time. They have been knocked back a couple levels in their progression. They can wear some items, you can level them manually and give them feats like Outflank and Improved critical (bite) but it's never enough to make them feel strong, especially at high level. You're also limited in your choices of animal companion by that mod. Only the druid gets them all AFAIK.

I just ran a party to dungeon level 51 in Beneath the Stolen Lands (using CoTW), and one of them had an animal companion. By the time the party was level 20 I was skipping its turns because I couldn't be bothered sitting through all of its attacks, almost all of which missed. Its damage was shit too, even when it hit. Having a dog pick locks and disarm traps was kind of funny but not worth it. I didn't even bother rezzing it when it died. Which it did, constantly, because its saves were trash.

If you want a pack of animals go with the vanilla game and use a custom party. Try CoTW on your second playthrough. It's best to go vanilla the first time anyway. Play classes that get animal companions - Druid, Ranger, the barbarian subclass, Sylvan Sorceror or Sacred Huntsmaster (I don't recommend Sacred Huntsmaster, standard Inquisitor with animal domain is better). If you dip into other classes keep it to 4 levels or less and take boon companion. Keep a slot or two in your party for companions when you need to do their quests and otherwise use your hires. You can also play a cleric or inquisitor that worships Erastil or Gozreh and take the animal domain and then boon companion at level 5.

Just remember that your animal companion levels based on your level in the class that gave it to you, and that it starts levelling when you get it (so classes like cleric and ranger must take boon companion to make up for its lost levels). Boon companion only compensates for up to four class levels of progression for the animal and is unnecessary for classes which start with an animal. The animal caps at level 16 when you reach level 20 in the class that gave it to you (or effective level 20 with boon companion) and there is no way of getting it above level 16. I kind of hate animal companions for this reason. You give up a bit to get them, they're big and always blocked by someone on their turn and at the end they cannot hit things and so become nearly useless (lots of buffs can help with this a bit). Still, they're insanely strong in the early to mid game and unfair players seem to value them immensely as immortal tanks. So they have their place.

That's by far the simplest way of doing this. I'd suggest using dimension door (mass) to get through doors in dungeons if you play in turn based mode. In general keep that spell handy (on a character with good initiative) for getting your massive party through tight spaces.
 
Self-Ejected

Atlet

Self-Ejected
Vatnik
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Messages
1,610
I'm considering playing as Druid (druid defender of the true world or basic druid, still not sure), Aaasimar (Plumekith, for the +2 racial bonus to Dexterity and Wisdom) or Human (for the extra feat and skill point) with one level Multi on monk for the Wis AC.

I'm considering playing sth like 7 20 16 7 18 7 and using weapon finesse and Amulet of Agile Fists to disregard completely STR. I will use my druid as a melee char obv and I will play with Ekundayo to buff both our pets. Not gonna spend much feats on spelcasting, just basic stuff like Natural Spell, and gonna use more melee feats (like outflank, seize the moment, Shatter Defenses...). I know I'm not gonna do lots of damage in melee, but I'm planning to have my Smilidon and Ekundayo's Wolf to do that, and my main role will be summoning and buffing the party. Eventually healing.

My true question is if I just play as a base druid to use superior summoning (that only works with multiple summonings) in the higher levels and summon Feys. If, I use a DotTW sub, I will be able to only summon animals.

What do you think?
 
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Bloodeyes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
2,912
I'm considering playing as Druid (druid defender of the true world or basic druid, still not sure), Aaasimar (Plumekith, for the +2 racial bonus to Dexterity and Wisdom) or Human (for the extra feat and skill point) with one level Multi on monk for the Wis AC.

I'm considering playing sth like 7 20 16 7 18 7 and using weapon finesse and Amulet of Agile Fists to disregard completely STR. I will use my druid as a melee char obv and I will play with Ekundayo to buff both our pets. Not gonna spend much feats on spelcasting, just basic stuff like Natural Spell, and gonna use more melee feats (like outflank, seize the moment, Shatter Defenses...). I know I'm not gonna do lots of damage in melee, but I'm planning to have my Smilidon and Ekundayo's Wolf to do that, and my main role will be summoning and buffing the party. Eventually healing.

My true question is if I just play as a base druid to use superior summoning (that only works with multiple summonings) in the higher levels and summon Feys. If, I use a DotTW sub, I will be able to only summon animals.

What do you think?

I dunno man. Either should work right? So just follow whatever character concept you have in mind and see how it goes. Your build sounds viable so play it and see if it's good or not. I've never played that or wanted to so I can't say if it works or not. As for what I think of your build, opinions on builds are like assholes. Everyone's got 'em and they all stink. I think it sounds like it would work and if you end up enjoying playing it then it's a good build.

I don't summon much, but when I do I avoid summoning Brealani Azatas. The zap lightning through your own dudes. So if the fey summoning Druid summons them then don't, be evil instead to summon redcaps or just summon animals. I've only played one druid and I didn't summon much, I'm more of a cleric guy.

Personally I don't like summons. They take too long to get in the fight and even with augmented and superior summoning they get too little AB. I'm not a fan of using DEX unless it's required either. Like ranged characters, Sword Saints, rogues. Anything else I've found STR is just more straightforward and satisfying. Functions sooner. I've never really missed the AC. I'm not a fan of multiclassing casters unless it's totally needed either. I like fast spell progression.

But these are my preferences and what you're suggesting sounds fine.

Were I to play a druid I'd do it differently. I'd go blight druid so I didn't have to deal with an animal companion. I'd probably dump my DEX and INT and take heavy armour proficiency. Then I'd wear that druid heavy armour you get from your artisan, the stuff that wildshapes with you. I'd start with 18 STR, 14 in CON and 19 WIS then level WIS.

Probably something like

18
8
14
7
19
7

1. Toughness + heavy armour proficiency

3. Spell focus - Transmutation

5. Power attack

7. Augmented summoning

9. Superior summoning

11. Improved critical - Scythe

13. Spell focus Evocation or greater spell focus transmutation. Haven't looked at the druid spell list lately.

15.Greater spell focus evocation or a metamagic feat like empower spell, maximize spell or quicken spell.

17. Spell penetration

19. Greater spell penetration

But that's what I'd do. Everyone has a different playstyle that they enjoy and different ways of achieving the same ends. It sounds like you already know how to make a character in this system so you don't really need my opinions. As I said your build sounds fine.
 

razvedchiki

Erudite
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on the back of a T34.
is there any point to take some lvls of 2handed warrior in a barbarian build? like 3 lvls of 2handed and the rest barbarian.

also its better to go 1 fighter/19 cleric for melee reach cleric or crusader?
 

Haplo

Prophet
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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Depends? What is your purpose? With 3 levels you're not getting Weapon Training. Overhand Chop? Are you gonna do single attacks a lot? Vital Strikes?
If so, maybe it makes sense.
In general Mutation Warrior is the stronger archetype, though. And question whether its worth to delay the Barb progression...

As for the cleric question - it again depends. Are you gonna melee a lot? If so, it might be worth it. Probably not on a Crusader, though. He gets bonus feats himself and appears more shield focused (due to his narrow bonus feat list).
 

razvedchiki

Erudite
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on the back of a T34.
want mainly barb for pounce and the stances, was wondering is some lvls of fighter would add anything of value ( yea the 3 are for the overhand chop). if mutation warrior was in kingmaker i would take it no doubt, with legend in wrath mutation 20/instictual 20 is very good.
the cleric will melee and use whatever spell slots for buffing/removing afflictions/resurecting.
 

Bloodeyes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
2,912
also its better to go 1 fighter/19 cleric for melee reach cleric or crusader?

I've played many different variations on the Cleric. It's an amazing class with so many different, awesome things to do with it and the heavy hitting giant melee buffing cleric is one of the best. Whatever you pick your character will end up awesome if you stick with him until level 13-14.

Unless you're really feat starved in your build I think standard cleric with no dips is better than crusader or Fighter 1 cleric. There's nothing wrong with a fighter 1 cleric or a crusader, either can be a fine character. You can't really fuck up a cleric. The class is too good. But my personal preference is not to sacrifice spells per day and a domain for the couple good feats you get from crusader, and dipping for martial weapons proficiency and heavy armour proficiency doesn't feel worth the loss of caster level, spell progression, domain power progression and channel energy progression. One level isn't crippling, but personally I don't think it's worth the three good feats (martial weapons, heavy armour and improved critical). Losing a domain is tolerable, most aren't essential but they're a load of fun and make your character feel unique and different from the other clerics in your party. I prefer having two.

For my own characters when I play a build like that I just fit in heavy armour proficiency, improved critical and Exotic weapon proficiency - Fauchard or pick a deity that has a weapon I like so I don't need a proficiency. Actually I play modded so I always use the favored weapon. Channel smite + guided hand is too good to not use unless I'm not doing melee at all. Plus there's a spell in the modded game that makes any weapon reach for minute*level so weapon choice isn't a huge deal.

Shelyn has a glaive if you don't mind your character being gay. If you want the armour for AC and not just looks you could play a lawful character and take a 1 level traditional monk dip. This is stronger than just wearing armour. It comes with all the aforementioned downsides of dipping but the huge boost to AC is worth it, and there are several good options for your bonus feat. I personally prefer just taking the armour proficiency, or just using medium armour and putting on a belt of physical flow or physical perfection +6 to get my max dodge bonus from armour but that's a me thing. I like spells more than a small increase in AC from heavy armour or the big increase from monk AC. Heavy armour looks way cooler though.

The feats list on crusader is very limited so unless you need those specific feats to make something work and can't figure any way to fit them in it's usually better to just sacrifice something else. War domain gives a bonus feat btw, so that's an option to fit something else in there. Crusader has its place but I always consider it a last resort. A human war domain crusader is the most feats you can have on a single class cleric though.

As for being better than Fighter 1, I think it depends on if you need specifically those feats or just proficiencies. If it's just the proficiencies and you can't just take them I'd say it's a judgement call. You reach spell levels slower, have a lower caster level, lower cleric level for powers and channel, but you get more spells per day once you do max a spell level, and you get a second domain. Depends what you prefer. Either is valid, if you need it.

I'm currently running Harrim as a crusader because it was the only way I could get his build functioning before the end game. But I tried not to because it gimps the shit out of his casting. Those buffs are like gold. Hopefully it ends up being worth it, if not I'll change him back.
 

tkx

Barely Literate
Joined
Feb 22, 2022
Messages
5
I've been reading the thread and didn't find much on this, so here's some notes on Alchemist / Arcane Bomber synergies:

Precise Bombs discovery also works with the Arcane Bomber's bombs.
Bomber's Eye and Targetted Admix only works with Alchemist's bombs.
Fast Bombs discovery works with the Arcane's bombs too.
Extra Bombs feat adds +4 to each class, for a total of +8.
Alchemical Weapon can be used with Arcane's bombs too (it seems to be an extra attack of its own).
A single Spellblast Bomb will affect all bombs in a full-round attack, but only works with Arcane's bombs.

202109181420041196.png


I tested with all three valid Alchemist kits (Default, Grenadier, Chirurgeon), and I also tested all four elemental bomb types of the Arcane Bomber. It might work in WotR too since it's (for the most part) the same code, but I can't test that one.
I recommend going -> Grenadier 08 / Arcane Bonber 12.

Decent enough defense, lots of Bombs and good AoE damage, but you are limited to level 06 spells (which didn't matter much since almost all of them went into Spellblast) and the ocasional resistance.
 

Yosharian

Arcane
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Messages
9,517
Location
Grand Chien
The idea with Arcane Bomber is to go straight 20 and use bombs to complement your spellcasting, not multiclass with Alchemist - that defeats the whole purpose of taking the archetype in the first place.

The problem with AB is that it gives up too much and your bombs are just a little too underpowered to really affect enemies all that much IMO

I toyed a little with this archetype but in the end there are just much better options
 

gurugeorge

Arcane
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Aug 3, 2019
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London, UK
Strap Yourselves In
The idea with Arcane Bomber is to go straight 20 and use bombs to complement your spellcasting, not multiclass with Alchemist - that defeats the whole purpose of taking the archetype in the first place.

The problem with AB is that it gives up too much and your bombs are just a little too underpowered to really affect enemies all that much IMO

I toyed a little with this archetype but in the end there are just much better options

I haven't played PFK in a while so i don't know if this is an option (maybe with COTW?) but when I was playing PFWOTR the option of the thief bomber subclass (forget its name, Underground Chemist?) allowed one to have sneak attack for bombs, which is actually quite nice. Start with Arcane Bomber for a level (or two or three? can't remember) so that you get the arcane bombs from the start, then go into the bombing thief subclass for IIRC 3 levels to get the ability to sneak attack with those arcane bombs and the (otherwise useless) flasks, then continue with Arcane Trickster to keep up the spellcasting levels, plus a moderately decent level of sneak attacks, and finish with Arcane Bomber. You're one short of full spellcasting, but as a trade off (and with high initiative) you get to sneak attack with arcane bombs and flasks, and can even deal a bit of melee damage with sneak attacks now and then, which is surprisingly handy (because of occasional positioning happenstances). Not really an Unfair build, but a versatile and fun rp build on lower diffs.
 

tkx

Barely Literate
Joined
Feb 22, 2022
Messages
5
how is it any better than straight grenadier 20?
It isn’t better, as the Grenadier is a really strong archetype. In essence you trade versatility for damage. +12 per bomb per enemy with a spellblast lv. 6 (in the image my MC dealt +96 combined points of extra damage than she would in a 20 Grenadier). I’ve also heard the Arcebic Ring might double dip with arcane bombs, but I can’t confirm this one because I didn’t run into this ring during my test run. Using create pit was quite helpful for clustering mobs for the bombardment. It’s basically a trash disposal unit.

The idea with Arcane Bomber is to go straight 20 and use bombs to complement your spellcasting, not multiclass with Alchemist - that defeats the whole purpose of taking the archetype in the first place.

The problem with AB is that it gives up too much and your bombs are just a little too underpowered to really affect enemies all that much IMO

I toyed a little with this archetype but in the end there are just much better options
I saw somewhere that Precise Bombs also works with arcane bombs, so my general intention was to go and see what works and what doesn’t between the classes as much as I could. I understand what you’re saying though, both from reading a lot and some of my own tests. Generally speaking, one shouldn’t deviate from the base class, specially with spellcasters. But once I found out fast bombs works too, I tried to see how much I could act as if it was just another alchemist archetype.
I did find the damage satifying. I won’t say it’s the most optimized of builds, but I will nominate it for the “decent enough awards” (tm).
If it’s worth mentioning it, I did my test run on default hard with RtwP on the Tenebrous Depths.

tkx you are using a custom party?
Yup. Tenebrous Depths custom party on default hard. Builds are: Grenadier 8 / Arcane Bomber 12 Elf MC on slot 4, and then (from left to right) Human Aldori Defender 10 / Swordlord 10, Orc Divine Guardian 20, Half-Elf TWF Deliverer 20, Tiefling Flame Dancer 20 with javelin/throwing axes and a unarmed Dwarf Chirurgeon 20.


If anything, I will at least garantee that the MC ended up being a better idea than my punching doc'.
 

tkx

Barely Literate
Joined
Feb 22, 2022
Messages
5
A few questions, if anyone mind answering:

Is it possible to build a Fighter around multiple Combat Maneuvers? Is it worth it? Straightforward as a Fighter might seems, I have never been able to build a satisfying one; except for Aldori. On another note, is a Flamewarden just a bad, gimmicky class? I tried turning Harrim into one because I thought about the idea of having him detonate upon death quite amusing, but I regret it considerably. All class features seem to be quite worthless (the weapon buff takes too long to apply, doesn't last enough, the spell selection seems kinda weak, and so on). I am open to the idea of me just be doing things the wrong way.
 

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