Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[MpuMngwana]

I was thinking of making a Sword Saint/Duelist mix, since their INT-to-AC abilities stack. Obviously to get the most of it I would have to go roughly half-half, which is bad for spellcasting ability. The idea is to pump INT as high as possible, keep high DEX and take weapon finesse/fencing grace.

Is this feasible at all? Also, if it is, which of these would be best:
-10/10, or 11 SS/9 Duelist for some extra spells
-9 SS/9 Duelist/2 Rogue (free weapon finesse, evasion at LV2, sneak attack)
-10 SS/9 Duelist/1 Vivisectionist (sneak attack, mutagen for +4 DEX - does this stack with Cat's Grace?)

 

[vazha]

I tried a similar build recently. Here are some of my findings:
1. It might look very tempting to build your case on the 6th lvl transformation spell, which confers you your lost base attack bonus and with extended spell, can last for quite long. HOWEVER: you get transformation at lvl 16 of Sword Saint. That is really, really late. Sprinkle it with a vivi dip and 2-3 duelist lvls (you've got enough buff spells at this point) and you'll have a very powerful character at lvl 20. When the game is, I imagine, beatable even with less than an optimal build.
2. Vivi dip is godly. You cannt go wrong with it, esp with accomplished sneaker.
3. One could experiment with adding Eldritch Knight lvls instead of duelist, at somewhere Sword Saint lvl8-10. Pros: you get spellcasting & better bab & fighter lvls, which will help you tremendously and make you competitive throughout the game, making that long wait for transformation spell much more bearable. Cons: loss of a whopping 10 AC that you'd get from duelist, forgoing all its feats and one blank spell lvl. You decide.

Making all these conclusions, I decided to forget about transformation and settled on the following build: High Dex and Charisma, Int 16 (or even less if you'll go cognatogen route), 2 pally lvl dips, one monk lvl dip, one vivi dip, Sword Saint lvls enough for about 5-6 int bonus and first 3-4 lvl spell buffs & touchies, the rest duelist. If I were playing solo (as impossibru as it is on insane), I'd probably go pally lvl 3 to get immunity to fear, considering my wisdom will be rock-bottom when I imbibe a dex mutagen and 2 vivi lvl dips to get that sweet int +4 bonus at the cost of useless strength.

 

[vazha]

Oh and dont forget to take the feat that makes your hit die a chief stat for your combat maneuver defense, otherwise you'll spend most rounds floored via trip.

 

[Yosharian]

Oh and dont forget to take the feat that makes your hit die a chief stat for your combat maneuver defense, otherwise you'll spend most rounds floored via trip.

Another advantage that the cheese monk build has =p

 

[vazha]

what build would that be?

 

[MpuMngwana]

Didn't know about cognatogen, now taking two vivi levels instead of one sounds tempting. Perhaps kensai 9/duelist 9/vivi 2? Or kensai 8/duelist 10 since I won't be getting level 4 spells either way. Though at the point when that decision is to be made, I guess it won't really matter.

Can you use both mutagen and cognatogen at the same time? That sounds way too good.

Oh and dont forget to take the feat that makes your hit die a chief stat for your combat maneuver defense, otherwise you'll spend most rounds floored via trip.

I would've absolutely forgotten that. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Yosharian]

what build would that be?

I mean any build that dips 1 level of Monk. The Wis/Cha-to-AC that Monks have also adds that bonus to your CMD

 

[Parabalus]

Is there any build which would mimic Hide in Plain Sight spam from NWN 1 & 2?

 

[Yosharian]

Can you use both mutagen and cognatogen at the same time?

No

 

[vazha]

what build would that be?

I mean any build that dips 1 level of Monk. The Wis/Cha-to-AC that Monks have also adds that bonus to your CMD

I didn't know that! Well then, MpuMngwana might also opt for a monk dip - it saves a feat, gives a bonus feat (dodge), opens your way to crane style (which you'll absolutely want being a kensai / duelist) and if you happen to be likable it will also give you bonuses to your AC (which is, as far as I'm concerned, the main lure of your build in the first place)

 

[MpuMngwana]

I didn't know that! Well then, MpuMngwana might also opt for a monk dip - it saves a feat, gives a bonus feat (dodge), opens your way to crane style (which you'll absolutely want being a kensai / duelist) and if you happen to be likable it will also give you bonuses to your AC (which is, as far as I'm concerned, the main lure of your build in the first place)

Welp, some additional charisma might be in order. Scaled Fist dip is tempting. Should I go with 1 vivi instead of 2, or sacrifice one kensai/duelist level?

Also, while checking various options I took 1 rogue and 1 vivisectionist levels, it gave me two ranks of sneak attack. Is it supposed to stack this way, or is it a result of genius Russian programming?

 

[Yosharian]

what build would that be?

I mean any build that dips 1 level of Monk. The Wis/Cha-to-AC that Monks have also adds that bonus to your CMD

I didn't know that! Well then, MpuMngwana might also opt for a monk dip - it saves a feat, gives a bonus feat (dodge), opens your way to crane style (which you'll absolutely want being a kensai / duelist) and if you happen to be likable it will also give you bonuses to your AC (which is, as far as I'm concerned, the main lure of your build in the first place)

Yeah, it gives a lot of toys. It's painful to delay the spellcasting yet another level, but.. hopefully it'll be worth it.

 

[MpuMngwana]

Also, since I'm sacrificing a bunch of spellcasting levels, is the magus arcana that allows me to use wands in spell combat perhaps worth a look?

 

[vazha]

I didn't know that! Well then, MpuMngwana might also opt for a monk dip - it saves a feat, gives a bonus feat (dodge), opens your way to crane style (which you'll absolutely want being a kensai / duelist) and if you happen to be likable it will also give you bonuses to your AC (which is, as far as I'm concerned, the main lure of your build in the first place)

Welp, some additional charisma might be in order. Scaled Fist dip is tempting. Should I go with 1 vivi instead of 2, or sacrifice one kensai/duelist level?

Also, while checking various options I took 1 rogue and 1 vivisectionist levels, it gave me two ranks of sneak attack. Is it supposed to stack this way, or is it a result of genius Russian programming?

i d say vivi 2 is worth it for cognatogen option. Another upside for scaled fist dip is that its cha bonus to ac isn't class dependent, you just need to be unarmored, which you;ll be. Also, if you go sacred fist, it might be tempting to give a lustful look to that pally 2 dip as well.
Sneak attacks from various sources stack, as far as I remember. Even vital organs spell sneak attack stacks if I'm not mistaken, but others would know better.

 

[Yosharian]

I didn't know that! Well then, MpuMngwana might also opt for a monk dip - it saves a feat, gives a bonus feat (dodge), opens your way to crane style (which you'll absolutely want being a kensai / duelist) and if you happen to be likable it will also give you bonuses to your AC (which is, as far as I'm concerned, the main lure of your build in the first place)

Welp, some additional charisma might be in order. Scaled Fist dip is tempting. Should I go with 1 vivi instead of 2, or sacrifice one kensai/duelist level?

Also, while checking various options I took 1 rogue and 1 vivisectionist levels, it gave me two ranks of sneak attack. Is it supposed to stack this way, or is it a result of genius Russian programming?

Yes, it works that way in PnP.

No idea why you'd dip Rogue and Vivisectionist though.

Personally I wouldn't combine Kensai and Duelist. Duelist is a pretty bad PrC, and you need as many Kensai levels as you can get to get access to spells.

 

[panda]

Isn't this duelist/kensai double AC stacking a clear case bug though? Relying on it is rather questionable.

 

[Cael]

Isn't this duelist/kensai double AC stacking a clear case bug though? Relying on it is rather questionable.

There were a lot of arguments about that in the old 3.5 days. Dramafags love to scream and shout about how class abilities from different classes do not stack. The classic is the monk Wis-to-AC and the ninja Wis-to-AC. Their argument is that adding your stat bonus twice means they come from the same source and so do not stack as per the rules as written.

As usual, dramafags, like SJWs, use smoke and mirrors in order to deceive. The ability is the source. The stat is merely the measure. Two different abilities from two different classes do stack, regardless of which stat is referrenced. The caveat is if the ability gives a typed bonus (e.g., Nymph's Cha-to-AC ability gives a deflection bonus). Then, the rule about same type of bonuses not stacking comes into play (i.e., rings of protection are useless for Nymphs).

 

[Haplo]

Also, while checking various options I took 1 rogue and 1 vivisectionist levels, it gave me two ranks of sneak attack. Is it supposed to stack this way, or is it a result of genius Russian programming?

You stack Sneak Attack but nerf your Base Attack Bonus by going another 3/4 progression class...



By the way, wonder if Echolocation is in. If so, maybe I don't need BlindFight...

 

[Shadenuat]

Echolocation exists as a spell, and as some person tested on Steam threads, is one of the few things that can penetrate Concealment of planar creatures like fey and wisps (since True Sight or anything similar does nothing against this). Blind Fight might be a good feat in this module.

 

[Haplo]

Cool! So I can save 1 feat at least.

 

[Yosharian]

Isn't this duelist/kensai double AC stacking a clear case bug though? Relying on it is rather questionable.

There were a lot of arguments about that in the old 3.5 days. Dramafags love to scream and shout about how class abilities from different classes do not stack. The classic is the monk Wis-to-AC and the ninja Wis-to-AC. Their argument is that adding your stat bonus twice means they come from the same source and so do not stack as per the rules as written.

As usual, dramafags, like SJWs, use smoke and mirrors in order to deceive. The ability is the source. The stat is merely the measure. Two different abilities from two different classes do stack, regardless of which stat is referrenced. The caveat is if the ability gives a typed bonus (e.g., Nymph's Cha-to-AC ability gives a deflection bonus). Then, the rule about same type of bonuses not stacking comes into play (i.e., rings of protection are useless for Nymphs).

The problem is that the abilities are identical in name. The Kensai page literally states:

Canny Defense (Ex)
At 1st level, when a kensai is wielding his chosen weapon, he gains the canny defense ability. This is identical to the duelist prestige class ability of the same name, save that his chosen weapon may be of any type.

Obtaining the same ability from two different classes does not give you 2x the ability, unless the ability specifically states that it stacks with other classes that give that ability, which this one does not.

As an example, see the following, again from the Kensai page:

Fighter Training (Ex)
Starting at 7th level, a kensai counts his magus level –3 as his fighter level for the purpose of qualifying for feats (if he has levels in fighter, these levels stack), but forfeits the benefit of such feats with weapons other than his favored weapon.

This ability replaces knowledge pool.

This ability specifically states that it stacks with the Fighter ability of the same name. Canny Defense doesn't state this.

So when you say "two different abilities" you're not being accurate, because it is the same ability, and as such it shouldn't stack.

However, there is an argument to be made that the Kensai and Duelist class levels should stack in terms of determining the maximum Intelligence bonus you can apply to your AC. But that is entirely different to receiving a 'double dip'.

So in my opinion, no they shouldn't stack, and Owlcat should fix this. Whether they will or not is another matter.

ANYWAY: Duelist is just straight up bad. Probably the worst Prestige Class.

 

[Yosharian]

Also, since I'm sacrificing a bunch of spellcasting levels, is the magus arcana that allows me to use wands in spell combat perhaps worth a look?

It's worth a look regardless of how many Magus levels you have.

 

[Yosharian]

My current build at level 3 that takes advantage of a possible bug:

Rogue 1 / Eldritch Archer magus all the way :
Human; Dex Focus
10
18
14
16
10
10

Feats at level 1: Precise shot / Point Blank Shot
Feat at level 3: Accomplished Sneak attacker

uses ranged spell strike to do ridiculous sneak damage with 2d6 sneak applied to both standard attack and the cantrip acid touch for a total of 4d6 sneak attack dice. Not sure if I should take it towards Arcane trickster or magus all the way. the latter is probably a better choice.

Advantages of taking rogue over vivisectionist are that it gives free Weapon finesse that allows you to switch to a light melee weapon and stick wreck sh*t up. When I get a source of greater invis, this build will be devastating, I think.

Why 10 Cha? Literally pointless. You're just throwing away damage, not taking any Strength bonus.

 

[Sheepherder]

Ayyy, dual-wielding ranger is good shit. I made a half-orc using an orcish double axe. It has spells, a tanky pet with great damage output, skill utility and possibly the best single target DPS.
As I wanted to make a Big Guy+Big Weapon character, at first I tried a two-handed fighter and it was extremely boring to play, boring to level up and boring to gear up. Should have listened to people online saying it's shit.

 

[vazha]

Ayyy, dual-wielding ranger is good shit. I made a half-orc using an orcish double axe. It has spells, a tanky pet with great damage output, skill utility and possibly the best single target DPS.
As I wanted to make a Big Guy+Big Weapon character, at first I tried a two-handed fighter and it was extremely boring to play, boring to level up and boring to gear up. Should have listened to people online saying it's shit.

I beg to differ, playing a two hander pal/monk/vivi/abyssal sorc with reach weapon cleave (why cannt you freaking combine cornugon smash and cleave ffs) myself and cannot complain. In fact one half of my party consists of enlarged guys with big sticks whacking trolls and whatnot.