Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Shadenuat]

More or less, although I still grabbed Skill Focus on that for her.

 

[Serus]

A propos trapfinding. Does it count only rogue levels or charachter levels regardless of class? In other words is it effective with only a dip in rogue? I'm not sure because in case of for example Inquisitor's Stern Gaze it says "half of inquisitor levels" but in case of trapfinding just "half her level". Can anyone clarify?

 

[Luckmann]

How high Perception do you reasonably need? Question of going Rogue vs Knifemaster for the 1/2 level to perception.

I don't think anyone can reliably answer that question, because we can't see (AFAIK) the Perception tests (edit: for hidden stuff), so we don't even know the rolls we win, let alone fail.

I personally would go for Lvl +8 or so, the +8 being whatever; Skill Focus, Alertness, Ability Score, whatever. I have nothing to back that up with, though.

 

[Raghar]

A propos trapfinding. Does it count only rogue levels or charachter levels regardless of class? In other words is it effective with only a dip in rogue? I'm not sure because in case of for example Inquisitor's Stern Gaze it says "half of inquisitor levels" but in case of trapfinding just "half her level". Can anyone clarify?

2 INQ and 12 in Fighter would mean +1 and +7.

 

[Serus]

A propos trapfinding. Does it count only rogue levels or charachter levels regardless of class? In other words is it effective with only a dip in rogue? I'm not sure because in case of for example Inquisitor's Stern Gaze it says "half of inquisitor levels" but in case of trapfinding just "half her level". Can anyone clarify?

2 INQ and 12 in Fighter would mean +1 and +7.

So trapfinding counts character level not rogue level. Ok, good to know. Makes rogues a little better option for a dip relative to vivisectionist then. Still if taking only one of the two, mutagen is probably too good to pass.

 

[Parabalus]

How high Perception do you reasonably need? Question of going Rogue vs Knifemaster for the 1/2 level to perception.

I don't think anyone can reliably answer that question, because we can't see (AFAIK) the Perception tests (edit: for hidden stuff), so we don't even know the rolls we win, let alone fail.

I personally would go for Lvl +8 or so, the +8 being whatever; Skill Focus, Alertness, Ability Score, whatever. I have nothing to back that up with, though.

That seems incredibly low, with what Shadenaut posted above. He needs a DC45 at level 15, for that you'd want +35 modifier AT LEAST, ideally more, so 15 skill points and +20 from other stuff. That's a fucking shitton.

A propos trapfinding. Does it count only rogue levels or charachter levels regardless of class? In other words is it effective with only a dip in rogue? I'm not sure because in case of for example Inquisitor's Stern Gaze it says "half of inquisitor levels" but in case of trapfinding just "half her level". Can anyone clarify?

2 INQ and 12 in Fighter would mean +1 and +7.

So trapfinding counts character level not rogue level. Ok, good to know. Makes rogues a little better option for a dip relative to vivisectionist then. Still if taking only one of the two, mutagen is probably too good to pass.

Is this confirmed? So could I go rogue 1 / knifemaster X and get full trapfinding? Seems wrong.

 

[Parabalus]

you can't pick different subclass archetypes

Is this also a PnP restriction? Didn't play PnP Pathfinder.

 

[Luckmann]

That seems incredibly low, with what Shadenaut posted above. He needs a DC45 at level 15, for that you'd want +35 modifier AT LEAST, ideally more, so 15 skill points and +20 from other stuff. That's a fucking shitton.

That's for being guaranteed to discover certain enemies, on boosted DC:s no less. It's not the same as discovering hidden shit. You won't get a +35 modifier under reliable conditions, just forget about it. At some point, it also becomes prohibitatively "expensive" to invest in something. In no world would I waste two feats for Alertness and Skill Focus, for example.

you can't pick different subclass archetypes

Is this also a PnP restriction? Didn't play PnP Pathfinder.

It's a basic limitation. They're not seperate classes at all. It would be like taking, for example, Rogue 1 over and over again, just switching archetypes. It would be insanely broken to be Rogue 1/Rogue 1/Rogue 1/Rogue 1/etc., racking up the same basic 1st level stuff, just changing archetypes.

 

[Andnjord]

Stats are only important for your advisors.

Your choices are mostly Alignment based. But sometimes you also need to pass Persuasion. However, these checks are hard coded and are not very high, unless it is something crazy like that (Bluff) I am Chosen of God part in Act IV.

You can still pass them by using 0 level cantrip + heroism + Linzi playing etc.

Can you reliably savescum them?

Some are too high to savescum. Like, one I gave example is DC40 (although it lowers through other checks... but then you need to pass these checks too so gg).

That one is actually DC 50 ( at least on hard) and happens to give a motherlode of XP (about 64000) at lvl12-13. The checks to lower are pretty easy though, like 25 diplomacy. I only managed to pass it because my paladin was a dazzling display build (so high charisma, +strength bonus to Intimidate checks, enlarged, item that gave a +5 to intimidate, greater heroism....).

You definitely need a specialist for each skill if you don't want to be triggered by failing them like I am. BUT there is no check that you need to pass to finish the game, you can always resort to Rat Diplomacy or similar.

 

[Serus]

Is it worth dipping for a level of either rogue or vivisectionist for a paladin to get the sneak attack or am I better off just going straight pally?

One level of vivisectionist is 1, and potentially 2 (with the feat) d6 of sneak attack. And the mutagen for the hardest fight of the day is also quite good. And if you got 12 intelligence you should be even able to get 2 level 1 spell slots which includes somewhat useful stuff like enlarge person, shield, cure light wounds. With 1 caster level they wont last long but still better than nothing.
Overall, I think, it's not a bad deal. Hell, 1 level of vivisectionist is probably a good deal for most non-caster builds in this game. Sneak attack is just so easy to get and it adds to almost any damage roll and their dog.

 

[Serus]

That seems incredibly low, with what Shadenaut posted above. He needs a DC45 at level 15, for that you'd want +35 modifier AT LEAST, ideally more, so 15 skill points and +20 from other stuff. That's a fucking shitton.

That's for being guaranteed to discover certain enemies, on boosted DC:s no less. It's not the same as discovering hidden shit. You won't get a +35 modifier under reliable conditions, just forget about it. At some point, it also becomes prohibitatively "expensive" to invest in something. In no world would I waste two feats for Alertness and Skill Focus, for example.

you can't pick different subclass archetypes

Is this also a PnP restriction? Didn't play PnP Pathfinder.

It's a basic limitation. They're not seperate classes at all. It would be like taking, for example, Rogue 1 over and over again, just switching archetypes. It would be insanely broken to be Rogue 1/Rogue 1/Rogue 1/Rogue 1/etc., racking up the same basic 1st level stuff, just changing archetypes.

Except for the zero BAB. Guys I have 15 levels of level 1 rogue and 15d6 Sneak attack but a BAB of zero. What do I win? Tard Olympics.

Think about full BAB classes then and the original argument stands.
Also the point is that it would be potentially unbalanced to get all the level 1 features from all archetypes in one class. They simply weren't designed with that in mind. And all that with only 3 archetypes per class as we have in the computer game now. There are potentially many times more.

 

[J1M]

Is it worth dipping for a level of either rogue or vivisectionist for a paladin to get the sneak attack or am I better off just going straight pally?

Compare the level 20 benefit to the other class' level 1 benefit.

 

[toro]

Is it worth dipping for a level of either rogue or vivisectionist for a paladin to get the sneak attack or am I better off just going straight pally?

Compare the level 20 benefit to the other class' level 1 benefit.

Everybody is obsessed with cross-breeding and in the end they will end up with some mongrel build. Fuck it.

 

[Luckmann]

Is it worth dipping for a level of either rogue or vivisectionist for a paladin to get the sneak attack or am I better off just going straight pally?

Compare the level 20 benefit to the other class' level 1 benefit.

Bad way to think about it. Lvl 20 is a capstone that doesn't even come into play, whereas a lvl 1 dip is active from the second you take it until the credits roll. PF:s obsession with capstones of various kinds - both in the TTPnP and in this here CRPG - is a cancer and a trap.

That seems incredibly low, with what Shadenaut posted above. He needs a DC45 at level 15, for that you'd want +35 modifier AT LEAST, ideally more, so 15 skill points and +20 from other stuff. That's a fucking shitton.

That's for being guaranteed to discover certain enemies, on boosted DC:s no less. It's not the same as discovering hidden shit. You won't get a +35 modifier under reliable conditions, just forget about it. At some point, it also becomes prohibitatively "expensive" to invest in something. In no world would I waste two feats for Alertness and Skill Focus, for example.

you can't pick different subclass archetypes

Is this also a PnP restriction? Didn't play PnP Pathfinder.

It's a basic limitation. They're not seperate classes at all. It would be like taking, for example, Rogue 1 over and over again, just switching archetypes. It would be insanely broken to be Rogue 1/Rogue 1/Rogue 1/Rogue 1/etc., racking up the same basic 1st level stuff, just changing archetypes.

Except for the zero BAB. Guys I have 15 levels of level 1 rogue and 15d6 Sneak attack but a BAB of zero. What do I win? Tard Olympics.

Not if you're running Fractional BAB, the only right way to play.

 

[J1M]

How do other people rate Power Attack? -1 attack for +3 damage seems okay, but when it scales to -5 attack for +15 damage it looks rather poor.

 

[Shadenuat]

How do other people rate Power Attack? -1 attack for +3 damage seems okay, but when it scales to -5 attack for +15 damage it looks rather poor.

use 2-handers
do 160 damage crits
whaznot to like

 

[J1M]

How do other people rate Power Attack? -1 attack for +3 damage seems okay, but when it scales to -5 attack for +15 damage it looks rather poor.

use 2-handers
do 160 damage crits
whaznot to like

Assuming you are taking a weapon with a good crit range, only 30 of that 160 is from power attack? Legitimate question: wouldn't hitting more often be better?

 

[Yosharian]

Is it worth dipping for a level of either rogue or vivisectionist for a paladin to get the sneak attack or am I better off just going straight pally?

Compare the level 20 benefit to the other class' level 1 benefit.

That's not really accurate, because dipping one level of X gives you that advantage immediately, whereas the level 20 benefit will only be gotten for the last few hours of the game.

It's more accurate to say that you need to compare the advantage of dipping X to delaying all your main class' abilities by one level.

 

[Yosharian]

How do other people rate Power Attack? -1 attack for +3 damage seems okay, but when it scales to -5 attack for +15 damage it looks rather poor.

use 2-handers
do 160 damage crits
whaznot to like

Assuming you are taking a weapon with a good crit range, only 30 of that 160 is from power attack? Legitimate question: wouldn't hitting more often be better?

You can see a good analysis of 2H and TWF feats here:

https://rpgwillikers.wordpress.com/2016/08/20/feats-of-fury/

Note: 'these feats' refers to Power Attack, and 'EDV' is 'Expected Damage Value':

Against an average AC, these feats are always worthwhile in and of themselves. At level 4, even one-handed we get a 22% damage increase over baseline, and a whopping 58% increase against DR. These percentages are even better when two-handing.

The behavior of the feat is a bit strange from here, however. We see the % increase to EDV shrink over time against no DR (only 12% by level 8, and a mere 5% by level 12), but skyrocket against level-appropriate DR (140% at level 8, a whopping 424% by level 12). This basically affirms the old rule-of-thumb that +1 attack is roughly worth +2 damage, as over time the difference between power attacking and not seems to approach 0…except for DR. Our average damage without Power Attack falls closer and closer to being entirely negated by enemy DR as time goes on, so putting a decent amount of damage on top means that even if we hit more rarely, its to our net benefit because we actually accomplish something when we do connect. I should also note that if a character has significantly better attack modifiers than my baseline, the benefits of Power Attack to EDV are even more noticeable, even against non-DR opponents.

Two-handing weapons also increases the utility of Power Attack into mid and high level play. At level 12, a two-handed power attack gives us 40% more EDV than a single-handed non-power attack, and a massive 880% increase against DR 15.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

fact:
archer fighter is the best build

 

[J1M]

Is it worth dipping for a level of either rogue or vivisectionist for a paladin to get the sneak attack or am I better off just going straight pally?

Compare the level 20 benefit to the other class' level 1 benefit.

That's not really accurate, because dipping one level of X gives you that advantage immediately, whereas the level 20 benefit will only be gotten for the last few hours of the game.

It's more accurate to say that you need to compare the advantage of dipping X to delaying all your main class' abilities by one level.

Since many people seem eager to jump all over this, I was responding to this individual. Those of you sophisticated enough to know where this advice does not apply are not the target audience.

 

[J1M]

How do other people rate Power Attack? -1 attack for +3 damage seems okay, but when it scales to -5 attack for +15 damage it looks rather poor.

use 2-handers
do 160 damage crits
whaznot to like

Assuming you are taking a weapon with a good crit range, only 30 of that 160 is from power attack? Legitimate question: wouldn't hitting more often be better?

You can see a good analysis of 2H and TWF feats here:

https://rpgwillikers.wordpress.com/2016/08/20/feats-of-fury/

Note: 'these feats' refers to Power Attack, and 'EDV' is 'Expected Damage Value':

Against an average AC, these feats are always worthwhile in and of themselves. At level 4, even one-handed we get a 22% damage increase over baseline, and a whopping 58% increase against DR. These percentages are even better when two-handing.

The behavior of the feat is a bit strange from here, however. We see the % increase to EDV shrink over time against no DR (only 12% by level 8, and a mere 5% by level 12), but skyrocket against level-appropriate DR (140% at level 8, a whopping 424% by level 12). This basically affirms the old rule-of-thumb that +1 attack is roughly worth +2 damage, as over time the difference between power attacking and not seems to approach 0…except for DR. Our average damage without Power Attack falls closer and closer to being entirely negated by enemy DR as time goes on, so putting a decent amount of damage on top means that even if we hit more rarely, its to our net benefit because we actually accomplish something when we do connect. I should also note that if a character has significantly better attack modifiers than my baseline, the benefits of Power Attack to EDV are even more noticeable, even against non-DR opponents.

Two-handing weapons also increases the utility of Power Attack into mid and high level play. At level 12, a two-handed power attack gives us 40% more EDV than a single-handed non-power attack, and a massive 880% increase against DR 15.

That's an interesting link. The conclusions match my intuition, but the lack of decent formatting or some graphs of his data throw a little doubt on the accuracy of the work.

 

[Shadenuat]

At least a modicum of DR and 20-50 Concealment is a standard package for many enemies in this game, so yes PA is p. useful, as well as Blind Fight/Echolocation.

 

[Yosharian]

At least a modicum of DR and 20-50 Concealment is a standard package for many enemies in this game, so yes PA is p. useful, as well as Blind Fight/Echolocation.

It's that common? What percentage, would you say?

 

[Shadenuat]

Endgame they all feature like 50%.

Concealment is a bane of fighters in this game, really. Worse than high AC. Well, Ray shooters also have to do something to go around it.