Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Fedora Master]

If I multi a Cleric in a Sacred Huntsman to get the third level solo tacticts/give pet the teamfeats. Do the Inquisitor levels count for spell durations? Let's say "Sheild of faith". If I am a 3rd level Inqusitor and 7th level Cleric. does it last 10 minutes? Or just 3 if it's in the Inquisitor spell book?

I answer myself for anyone interested... the levels don't stack even if they are supposed to (according to Reddit).
So, it's a mechanics bug. Sad.

As much as I like the game, it's safe to assume the worst when it comes to mechanics working as per RAW.

edit: Can somebody provide a quick rundown on which of the variant classes are good?

 

[Yosharian]

Chirurgeon: not sure but seems crap
Grenadier: pretty good
Vivisectionist: OP as fuck

Armored Hulk: alright but not as good as the others
Mad Dog: pretty good
Invulnerable Rager: pretty good

Archaeologist: gives up Bardic Performance, shit unless you already have another Bard
Thunder Caller: OP as fuck
Flame Dancer: not very good

Crusader: losing a domain hurts, losing spells/day REALLY hurts. you better be desperate for those feats to consider this archetype. When you consider that a single domain can give you something like an animal companion? yeah fuck this archetype honestly
Ecclesitheurge: pretty good caster, but is it worth giving up armor/shield?
Herald Caller: seems crap, loses domain and med armor and shields, why not just grab a wizard/sorc if you want a summoner, also losing Spontanous Healing sucks

Blight Druid: doesn't play to the Druid's strengths which in my opinion are blasting and healing, it's alright I guess
Defender of the True World: could be decent against Fey (HINT HINT) but doesn't play to the Druid's strengths IMO
Feyspeaker: good caster that plays to the Druid's strengths, just don't try to go into melee or anything, good candidate for Druid/Sorc Mystic Theurge

Aldori Defender: dunno
Tower Shield Specialist: pretty good if you need a tank, also there are some decent Tower Shields in the game
Two-Handed Fighter: alright

Monster Tactician: dunno, supposed to be good
Tactical Leader: dunno
Sacred Huntsman: dunno

Eldritch Scion: strong when multiclassed to make the most out of high CHA, some Bloodlines are shit so make sure you pick a good one, also there might still be some unfixed bugs with certain Bloodlines
Sword Saint: it's alright
Eldritch Archer: very strong

Scaled Fist: strong when multiclassed to make the most out of high CHA
Sensei: crap
Traditional Monk: dunno

Divine Hunter: good candidate for multiclass Pal 2 dippers cos of free Precise Shot
Hospitaler: dunno
Divine Guardian: seems quite good to me, free feats, loss of Aura of Courage to allies doesn't hurt at all as long as you've got a Bard (WHY HAVEN'T YOU GOT A BARD??)

Freebooter: apparently quite good
Flame Warden: dunno
Stormwalker: dunno

Eldritch Scoundrel: good archetype but unfortunately completely outclassed by Arcane Trickster, I still really like this archetype though
Knife Master: excellent class, especially for Rogue dippers
Thug: it's alright, bit gimmicky IMO

Empyreal: good candidate for a Cleric/Sorc Mystic Theurge, otherwise shit
Sage: pretty neat but why not just make a Wizard? There are stronger Bloodlines
Sylvan: pet is pretty great, it's competing with some great Bloodlines but this is solid AF

Scroll Savant: shit I think, not enough scrolls in the game
Arcane Bomber: no idea, PnP version gives up four schools which is utter trash
Thassilonian Specialist: dunno

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

Nice overview.

Chirurgeon: not sure but seems crap
Grenadier: pretty good
Vivisectionist: OP as fuck

Alchemist class by itself is pretty good. Chirurgeon is slightly better than base just because poison resistance is near-useless in this game. But there really isn't any reason to take anything other than grenadier or vivi, and that choice boils down to chucking bombs or doing sneak attacks, both of which are extremely strong.

Crusader: losing a domain hurts, losing spells/day REALLY hurts. you better be desperate for those feats to consider this archetype. When you consider that a single domain can give you something like an animal companion? yeah fuck this archetype honestly
Ecclesitheurge: pretty good caster, but is it worth giving up armor/shield?
Herald Caller: seems crap, loses domain and med armor and shields, why not just grab a wizard/sorc if you want a summoner, also losing Spontanous Healing sucks

Cleric archetypes really are garbage aren't they?

Sacred Huntsman: dunno

Animal companion gets your teamwork feats = excellent. Probably the best Inquisitor archetype.

Thassilonian Specialist: dunno

Depends on the sin. Greed and gluttony are both very strong, maybe the best wizard archetypes, because their prohibited schools are well-covered by secondary casters like bards.

 

[Lawntoilet]

Chirurgeon: not sure but seems crap
Grenadier: pretty good
Vivisectionist: OP as fuck

Armored Hulk: alright but not as good as the others
Mad Dog: pretty good
Invulnerable Rager: pretty good

Archaeologist: gives up Bardic Performance, shit unless you already have another Bard
Thunder Caller: OP as fuck
Flame Dancer: not very good

Crusader: losing a domain hurts, losing spells/day REALLY hurts. you better be desperate for those feats to consider this archetype. When you consider that a single domain can give you something like an animal companion? yeah fuck this archetype honestly
Ecclesitheurge: pretty good caster, but is it worth giving up armor/shield?
Herald Caller: seems crap, loses domain and med armor and shields, why not just grab a wizard/sorc if you want a summoner, also losing Spontanous Healing sucks

Blight Druid: doesn't play to the Druid's strengths which in my opinion are blasting and healing, it's alright I guess
Defender of the True World: could be decent against Fey (HINT HINT) but doesn't play to the Druid's strengths IMO
Feyspeaker: good caster that plays to the Druid's strengths, just don't try to go into melee or anything, good candidate for Druid/Sorc Mystic Theurge

Aldori Defender: dunno
Tower Shield Specialist: pretty good if you need a tank, also there are some decent Tower Shields in the game
Two-Handed Fighter: alright

Monster Tactician: dunno, supposed to be good
Tactical Leader: dunno
Sacred Huntsman: dunno

Eldritch Scion: strong when multiclassed to make the most out of high CHA, some Bloodlines are shit so make sure you pick a good one, also there might still be some unfixed bugs with certain Bloodlines
Sword Saint: it's alright
Eldritch Archer: very strong

Scaled Fist: strong when multiclassed to make the most out of high CHA
Sensei: crap
Traditional Monk: dunno

Divine Hunter: good candidate for multiclass Pal 2 dippers cos of free Precise Shot
Hospitaler: dunno
Divine Guardian: seems quite good to me, free feats, loss of Aura of Courage to allies doesn't hurt at all as long as you've got a Bard (WHY HAVEN'T YOU GOT A BARD??)

Freebooter: apparently quite good
Flame Warden: dunno
Stormwalker: dunno

Eldritch Scoundrel: good archetype but unfortunately completely outclassed by Arcane Trickster, I still really like this archetype though
Knife Master: excellent class, especially for Rogue dippers
Thug: it's alright, bit gimmicky IMO

Empyreal: good candidate for a Cleric/Sorc Mystic Theurge, otherwise shit
Sage: pretty neat but why not just make a Wizard? There are stronger Bloodlines
Sylvan: pet is pretty great, it's competing with some great Bloodlines but this is solid AF

Scroll Savant: shit I think, not enough scrolls in the game
Arcane Bomber: no idea, PnP version gives up four schools which is utter trash
Thassilonian Specialist: dunno

Trad Monk is probably about as good as regular Monk. Better saves, fewer options.
Hospitaler looks good, but I haven't played one yet.
Sacred Huntsman is very good because of Teamwork feats on an animal companion.
Grenadier is excellent.

 

[Fedora Master]

Thanks. I was looking specifically at Archeologist because it seems flavorful and the Freebooter but I wasn't sure just how much you lose out on compared to regular ranger.

 

[Yosharian]

Thanks. I was looking specifically at Archeologist because it seems flavorful and the Freebooter but I wasn't sure just how much you lose out on compared to regular ranger.

I dunno why everyone blows their load on Archeologist, it's trash. Giving up massive bonuses to your entire team just to get a pitiful luck bonus that doesn't even last that long?

And the stuff you gain aside from that is mostly trappy stuff that's near-useless in this game, who gives a shit if you fail to disarm a trap, just reload a few times

Not that I'm bashing your choosing it based on flavor, it definitely has that I guess

 

[razvedchiki]

Change aldori defender to best tank,with one dip in monk and high wisdom you will have more ac then a tower specialist.

 

[Haplo]

Sword Saint seems like a strong upgrade to Magus, at least as long as you're more interested in hitting and critting stuff rather then blasting it.

Very high AC potential with Canny Defense if you go Dex/Int, early access to increased crit multiplier (albeit at a high AP cost), free Weapon Focus at level 1 (means you can get Slashing Grace at level 1 with human; non-human regular magus would have to wait till level 5), free own versions (usually superior, cause bonus is stat based rather then static) of nice feats such as Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes and Critical Focus, earlier access to BAB-based and Fighter specific feats.

 

[Efe]

on the other hand you cant wear any of those nice end game armors.
first round (when flat footed) you are very vulnerable

 

[ArchAngel]

Chirurgeon: not sure but seems crap

Blight Druid: doesn't play to the Druid's strengths which in my opinion are blasting and healing, it's alright I guess
Defender of the True World: could be decent against Fey (HINT HINT) but doesn't play to the Druid's strengths IMO
Feyspeaker: good caster that plays to the Druid's strengths, just don't try to go into melee or anything, good candidate for Druid/Sorc Mystic Theurge

Freebooter: apparently quite good
Flame Warden: dunno
Stormwalker: dunno

Scroll Savant: shit I think, not enough scrolls in the game
Arcane Bomber: no idea, PnP version gives up four schools which is utter trash
Thassilonian Specialist: dunno

Defender of the True World is best and only version of Druid you should be playing unless you are going for Mystic Theurge. Compared to pure Druid you lose poison immunity but both you and your pet get offensive and defensive bonuses vs Fey which is super useful in this game.

Freebooter is awesome. You lose Favorite enemy but get a boost that gives a bonus to everyone. It is single target only but that works well as you don't need it to clear trash but makes most battles vs tough enemies much easier.

Thassilonian Specialist, I got a Necro version. He is awesome. So many spells to cast!! And after they fixed the bugs with it, the penalty is not that severe. Basically what we had in BG games but bonuses are better. Everyone is Edwin now with this archetype :D

 

[Fedora Master]

Sword Saint seems like a strong upgrade to Magus, at least as long as you're more interested in hitting and critting stuff rather then blasting it.

Very high AC potential with Canny Defense if you go Dex/Int, early access to increased crit multiplier (albeit at a high AP cost), free Weapon Focus at level 1 (means you can get Slashing Grace at level 1 with human; non-human regular magus would have to wait till level 5), free own versions (usually superior, cause bonus is stat based rather then static) of nice feats such as Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes and Critical Focus, earlier access to BAB-based and Fighter specific feats.

Sword Saint with Aldori Duelling Sword works well since there are many good ones around. Although I suppose the optimal choice would be scimitar to get runic mageblades meant for Regongar.

 

[Haplo]

on the other hand you cant wear any of those nice end game armors.
first round (when flat footed) you are very vulnerable

You COULD get Uncanny Dodge from some other class (Rogue, Defender, even Barbarian if not lawful), but I don't think its worth the loss of high level abilities, enchantments such as Brilliant Energy and spells.
You do get to add your Int to your Initiative. You could even go crazy and pick Improved Initiative along with it. You'd rarely loose the Initiative game then, I imagine.

As for the armor, if Lawful Good, he can wear +5 Dodge robes.... along with +8 Bracers and potentially +5 Magic Vestment enhancement. What more armor do you want?

 

[Lawntoilet]

Sword Saint seems like a strong upgrade to Magus, at least as long as you're more interested in hitting and critting stuff rather then blasting it.

Very high AC potential with Canny Defense if you go Dex/Int, early access to increased crit multiplier (albeit at a high AP cost), free Weapon Focus at level 1 (means you can get Slashing Grace at level 1 with human; non-human regular magus would have to wait till level 5), free own versions (usually superior, cause bonus is stat based rather then static) of nice feats such as Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes and Critical Focus, earlier access to BAB-based and Fighter specific feats.

It's not a strict upgrade since Spell Recall is very good, and lets you spam Shocking Grasp and Vampiric Touch a lot. It is very good if you want to go Dex-based and focus more on the sword side of things, as you say.
I'm also not sure that Duelist and Sword Saint versions of Canny Defense are meant to stack, which is a build I've seen suggested quite a bit.
I really wish there were more Arcana implemented in this game for some more variety in Magus builds, incidentally.

Sword Saint seems like a strong upgrade to Magus, at least as long as you're more interested in hitting and critting stuff rather then blasting it.

Very high AC potential with Canny Defense if you go Dex/Int, early access to increased crit multiplier (albeit at a high AP cost), free Weapon Focus at level 1 (means you can get Slashing Grace at level 1 with human; non-human regular magus would have to wait till level 5), free own versions (usually superior, cause bonus is stat based rather then static) of nice feats such as Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes and Critical Focus, earlier access to BAB-based and Fighter specific feats.

Sword Saint with Aldori Duelling Sword works well since there are many good ones around. Although I suppose the optimal choice would be scimitar to get runic mageblades meant for Regongar.

Bloodhound is as good as any of the Runic Mageblades (although they are good for a Magus). Bear God Scimitar is probably as good or better than the Mageblades unless you're fighting something with truly insane AC (and then you can just use Dimension Strike).

on the other hand you cant wear any of those nice end game armors.
first round (when flat footed) you are very vulnerable

You COULD get Uncanny Dodge from some other class (Rogue, Defender, even Barbarian if not lawful), but I don't think its worth the loss of high level abilities, enchantments such as Brilliant Energy and spells.
You do get to add your Int to your Initiative. You could even go crazy and pick Improved Initiative along with it. You'd rarely loose the Initiative game then, I imagine.

As for the armor, if Lawful Good, he can wear +5 Dodge robes.... along with +8 Bracers and potentially +5 Magic Vestment enhancement. What more armor do you want?

I want that Lawbringer armor I waited all game for god damn it!
Getting +8 Str from that and +Dex from artisan gloves or something to free up your belt slot is good so you can use a Perfect Components belt for permanent Empowered Vampiric Touch giving you cheap THP.

 

[Jarpie]

Would you use bow or crossbow with eldritch archer? bow with many shots would probably suffer from low bab.

 

[Lawntoilet]

Would you use bow or crossbow with eldritch archer? bow with many shots would probably suffer from low bab.

Nah I'd still say longbow, it has the best itemization and Magus gets lots of tricks to help them hit.
You could go Heavy crossbow though because there is a really awesome one in

Spoiler

Farnirras' lair

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

XBow are shit compared to bows in PnP. They didn't implement the reload mechanics for xbows in the game however and you can get normal attack progression from BAB with XBows, rapid shot also works.
So... basically they're the same as bows just with better dmg and crit range. On the downside, manyshot is only for bows and overall the bow itemisation is probably a bit better. I don't see what manyshot has to do with low BAB for it doesn't reduce BAB - rapid shot does. But as an EA you don't necessary need rapid shot early or at all because you already have spell strike which has basically the same functionality (+1 attacks at the cost of -2 to AB for both your attacks), so just take rapid shot late when you're comfortable hitting things.

All in all there's no reason why you couldn't use xbows with an EA. Even the itemisation isn't a problem thinking about it, because getting the +5 one from the lich is easy once you have someone with dimension door and in the house at the edge of time the merchant sells a couple of very powerful ones too.

 

[Cael]

XBow are shit compared to bows in PnP.

They are supposed to be. Crossbows are simple weapons. Bows are martial weapons.

 

[hell bovine]

on the other hand you cant wear any of those nice end game armors.
first round (when flat footed) you are very vulnerable

You COULD get Uncanny Dodge from some other class (Rogue, Defender, even Barbarian if not lawful), but I don't think its worth the loss of high level abilities, enchantments such as Brilliant Energy and spells.
You do get to add your Int to your Initiative. You could even go crazy and pick Improved Initiative along with it. You'd rarely loose the Initiative game then, I imagine.

As for the armor, if Lawful Good, he can wear +5 Dodge robes.... along with +8 Bracers and potentially +5 Magic Vestment enhancement. What more armor do you want?

You could use the foresight spell. Endgame only, though, since it's level 9 (wizards and druids):

 

[Haplo]

It's not a strict upgrade since Spell Recall is very good, and lets you spam Shocking Grasp and Vampiric Touch a lot. It is very good if you want to go Dex-based and focus more on the sword side of things, as you say.

Good point.
Would be nice to have moar casts of these spells. Then again, you mostly save them (and single-use AP abilities) for challenging enemies/bosses and you should have enough casts for those even as a SS.

I'm also not sure that Duelist and Sword Saint versions of Canny Defense are meant to stack, which is a build I've seen suggested quite a bit.

Me neither. At least not the way they do. For me the most logical would be if the max bonus AC from Int was based on total SS+Duelist levels.
But as I calculated the potential AC without Duelist levels to be 74 (with Traditional Monk and Crane Wing), I don't really see the point of missing SS progression and high level abilities.

One other perk of Sword Saint is that he eventually gets to add Int bonus to damage vs Flat Footed. With Shatter Defenses that can be always vs Shaken enemies. I don't want to invest heavily in the intimidation feats with him... but if Val and/or Jaethal make the enemies shaken, he'll get a nice bonus (along with having an even easier time actually hitting: if using with Brilliant Energy... ignoring armor, shield, dodge and dex...).

 

[Lawntoilet]

It's not a strict upgrade since Spell Recall is very good, and lets you spam Shocking Grasp and Vampiric Touch a lot. It is very good if you want to go Dex-based and focus more on the sword side of things, as you say.

Good point.
Would be nice to have moar casts of these spells. Then again, you mostly save them (and single-use AP abilities) for challenging enemies/bosses and you should have enough casts for those even as a SS.

You don't really have to ration them so carefully in the first place with Spell Recall, plus having a big pool of Vampiric Touch THP by the time you get to the boss is pretty handy. But yes Sword Saint can definitely get by. I just don't think it is a clear-cut upgrade to a regular Magus overall, more like a strong sidegrade.
Admittedly I'm a bit biased toward a heavily armored spellsword-type in general, just as a personal preference (even though heavy armor and Strength tend to be underpowered thanks to the sedentary nerds who designed 3.PF)

I'm also not sure that Duelist and Sword Saint versions of Canny Defense are meant to stack, which is a build I've seen suggested quite a bit.

Me neither. At least not the way they do. For me the most logical would be if the max bonus AC from Int was based on total SS+Duelist levels.
But as I calculated the potential AC without Duelist levels to be 74 (with Traditional Monk and Crane Wing), I don't really see the point of missing SS progression and high level abilities.

One other perk of Sword Saint is that he eventually gets to add Int bonus to damage vs Flat Footed. With Shatter Defenses that can be always vs Shaken enemies. I don't want to invest heavily in the intimidation feats with him... but if Val and/or Jaethal make the enemies shaken, he'll get a nice bonus (along with having an even easier time actually hitting: if using with Brilliant Energy... ignoring armor, shield, dodge and dex...).

The SS and Duelist levels stacking to increase the Int cap makes way more sense to me than getting Int bonus to AC twice.
Good point about Flat-Footed and Shaken enemies, too.
Also Brilliant Energy doesn't ignore dodge or Dex (or deflection or natural armor). Dimension Strike does though.

 

[Haplo]

But they are denied Dex and Dodge with Shatter Defenses Flat-footed... so that together with Brilliant means only base, natural, deflection and maybe special cases, like sacred are left...

 

[Lawntoilet]

But they are denied Dex and Dodge with Shatter Defenses Flat-footed... so that together with Brilliant means only base, natural, deflection and maybe special cases, like sacred are left...

Oh yeah, gotcha. Yes that's quite a good perk.

 

[Sykar]

Out of curiosity does anyone know if the special metamagic feature of the Universalist does apply to spells a normal metamagic could not affect? Let us assume for example a quickened Disintegrate. Would that be possible or do the normal metamagic limitations apply?

 

[axedice]

I tried monster tactician for a while and they are as good as they sound. The high level single summons are on par with a full level pet (except for smilodon, but that shit is just insane anyway). With lower level 1d3 / 1d4+1 summons, (btw you should take augment and superior summoning feats) you also get an army to wreck shit behind enemy lines or disrupt those pesky dps long enough for you to reposition. One caveat is that teamwork feats require either you or another melee with the feat to be present, they are not activated on summons off of each other. Since you're a bit squishy in melee, possible solutions include a reach weapon, enlarge person, NokNok or the tank picking the feats.

On top of summons, you also get a spontaneous casting cleric, who can take care of your poison/elemental etc. protection needs on the fly, spam hold person or heal Jaethal. Judgements would have been useless in the archtype anyway, so there is no actual downside to monster tactician.

 

[Haplo]

Its good, but it also delays the progression a lot. Personally with a SS I want to reach level 12 - Brilliant energy enchantments to ignore armors and shields, level 13 - Int to damage vs flat-footed (should be easy against most enemies with Shatter Defenses) and level 15 - Bane enchantment for another +2 +2d6 ASAP.
I only took a single Traditional Monk level for Wis-to-AC, Crane Style and better saves.