Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Desiderius]

I don't like the game enough to invest that sort of time on one playthrough. There is no greatness or mystery or anything else of note in the game. It's a fun little romp through a gay fantasy world that should not last more than 30 hours per playthrough.

I guess I like it more than wotr, depends if you want to fight demons, but both are egregiously long.

They're long if you're having to reload a lot. Part of the fun is reaching a level of mastery (including designing for resilience) where that's no longer the case. More than enough tools in game to get there.

 

[Agesilaus]

FINE, I WILL REINSTALL. My old save games will still be there. After I complete acts 3-4-5, as suggested, I will return and shit on the game again because I'm pretty confident that there is no "good deal of interesting, epic stuff."

I don't like the game enough to invest that sort of time on one playthrough. There is no greatness or mystery or anything else of note in the game. It's a fun little romp through a gay fantasy world that should not last more than 30 hours per playthrough.

I guess I like it more than wotr, depends if you want to fight demons, but both are egregiously long.

They're long if you're having to reload a lot. Part of the fun is reaching a level of mastery (including designing for resilience) where that's no longer the case. More than enough tools in game to get there.

No, I am not having to reload a lot. It is just a really, really long game whose plot/content doesn't warrant it. Turn-based mode extends it too, although I think that's worth it.

A game can also feature a lot of content and plotlines without just tacking it all on in one long, linear, rail-roaded story. What happened to Choice and Consequence? Have lots of content that branches off and that you won't see unless you replay and make different choices. WotR kind of does that with its epic whatever paths, but generally speaking Owlcat (and many other games) fails at C&C.

 

[Desiderius]

FINE, I WILL REINSTALL. My old save games will still be there. After I complete acts 3-4-5, as suggested, I will return and shit on the game again because I'm pretty confident that there is no "good deal of interesting, epic stuff."

I don't like the game enough to invest that sort of time on one playthrough. There is no greatness or mystery or anything else of note in the game. It's a fun little romp through a gay fantasy world that should not last more than 30 hours per playthrough.

I guess I like it more than wotr, depends if you want to fight demons, but both are egregiously long.

They're long if you're having to reload a lot. Part of the fun is reaching a level of mastery (including designing for resilience) where that's no longer the case. More than enough tools in game to get there.

No, I am not having to reload a lot. It is just a really, really long game whose plot/content doesn't warrant it. Turn-based mode extends it too, although I think that's worth it.

A game can also feature a lot of content and plotlines without just tacking it all on in one long, linear, rail-roaded story. What happened to Choice and Consequence? Have lots of content that branches off and that you won't see unless you replay and make different choices. WotR kind of does that with its epic whatever paths, but generally speaking Owlcat (and many other games) fails at C&C.

You get that by playing different classes and trying different builds on the companions/party make-ups plus different approaches to the Kingdom Management and there are in fact dramatically different ways certain things play out depending on MC alignment. It has a way of snowballing where better KM unlocks access to game-changing items and in some cases regional buffs that transform the way combat plays out.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Agesilaus What class is your MC? Also, are you using a "good" party? My first run was as an arcane trickster with a nuanced morals and less conventional classes. It was an absolute slog. I replayed it with a Hospitaler Paladin MC and the mostly good party of Valerie, Linzi, Tristian, Ekundayo, and Jubilost. It was far better. The game is all about attrition, and it's grueling for a full arcane caster. The experience is different enough to where I would even recommend re-rolling your MC to a martial if you've gone full caster.

*Edit: Slayers are also very well suited as MCs for this game, especially later when advanced rogue talents come in and you can just churn through the worst foes. Come to think of it, on my Slayer MC run, I also made Valerie and Ekundayo straight slayers as soon as I got them. With how easy it is to get sneak attacks and AoO, the three characters stacking Crippling Strike was pure murder.

 

[Desiderius]

About halfway thru you get enough casts to feel like you’re contributing as a caster, and with the right party you can even attack with weapons to decent effect while you’re saving casts. Definitely easier/more fun as a Martial while you’re learning the ropes.

 

[Agesilaus]

Agesilaus What class is your MC? Also, are you using a "good" party? My first run was as an arcane trickster with a nuanced morals and less conventional classes. It was an absolute slog. I replayed it with a Hospitaler Paladin MC and the mostly good party of Valerie, Linzi, Tristian, Ekundayo, and Jubilost. It was far better. The game is all about attrition, and it's grueling for a full arcane caster. The experience is different enough to where I would even recommend re-rolling your MC to a martial if you've gone full caster. Slayers are also very well suited as MCs for this game, especially later when advanced rogue talents come in and you can just churn through the worst foes.

I've played Kingmaker a number of times with different characters, that's not really my issue. I'm just not drawn in to the game world and characters so much that I would willingly spend 100+ hours on a playthrough. However, I'm going to play through to the end of Act 5 at least.

I'm currently playing a chaotic good sorcerer with the green dragon blood line. I turned Valerie into a Dragon Disciple who can cast buffs, the barbarian lady also provides melee, the grumpy dwarf does heals, Linzi is there for bard buffs and spells, and the last person gets rotated a bit. Ekundayo is a little overpowered in my opinion, but hey whatever.

The combat isn't causing me to reload a lot or become frustrated, I generally approve of the tbs combat, items, spells, etc. However, if I just want combat I'll go play Battle Brothers.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Desiderius There is just too much traveling and too high volume of enemies. I found scrolls savant as incredibly useful, since the game lavishes the player with scrolls. It really keeps the endurance up. My AT got Surprise Spells while in VTomb, which was miraculous. If I had a better party, it wouldn't have been so bad. Harrim, Jaethal, Jubilost, Nok-Nok, and Twins. It was just too per rest dependent and low STR. I originally had Regongar instead of the twins, but I couldn't tolerate him. The combat maneuvers and menace feats provide just about all the CC a party needs. Jubilost and a higher level cleric will easily cover any other CC and nuking needs.

The reason why I like the Hospitaler so much is because they kept the momentum. Good AB/AC/Saves. High CHA for the frequent diplomacy checks. Tons of channel divinity to wash away all of the cumulative chip damage. Doesn't get fatigued. Likely to have good carry capacity. Mercies! (have mercy!) Mercies that rid yourself of the worst debuffs around--especially fatigue and exhaustion and refill the HP tank. Still also have a couple Smites for when they're really needed. I think the only MC that would be better for Kingmaker, is if you could take the Martyr archetype from WotR. Paladin with bard songs? Perfect.

 

[Desiderius]

Hospitaler was my second MC. Had a blast with Tempest speed Greataxe. Would be unplayable in Wrath where Mark of Justice is best ability in the game but fine in P:K.

Harrim can tank with Touch of Chaos in Trobold and Vordokai using his +4 Dodge AC vs Giants along with Giantslayer Clasp. Game takes a lot less mental energy with a good tank.



Agesilaus lvl 11 or so is the exact point that Sorc starts to get good. Make sure you read your new spells and abilities each level and concentrate on trying those out and seeing how they fit with different challenges. That's the main thing that kept/keeps my interest in the game. Sorc is always picking up new tricks and gets a decent amount of casts to use them. It's still technically combat but each chapter presents new foes and you have new tools to try out against them and more importantly have to if you want to keep performance up. Jub is a companion that you might want to look at since his class has several unique features and is an uncommon one across cRPGs and his writing is consistently entertaining. I chose a Grenadier for my Unfair run.

My first couple times thru P:K I went all out to minimize rest but the value isn't really there compared to how long rank-ups end up taking. Obv don't have unlimited but no reason to stretch your staying power too thin.

 

[gurugeorge]

FINE, I WILL REINSTALL. My old save games will still be there. After I complete acts 3-4-5, as suggested, I will return and shit on the game again because I'm pretty confident that there is no "good deal of interesting, epic stuff."

Oh trust me, there is, if you've ever been tickled by the idea of "mad gods," or thought about how insane and bored you'd get if you were actually immortal and as powerful as a god, you'll love what's coming. It's quite horrific and terrifying (much more terrifying than the demonic stuff in PFWOTR imho).

 

[Cael]

Agesilaus What class is your MC? Also, are you using a "good" party? My first run was as an arcane trickster with a nuanced morals and less conventional classes. It was an absolute slog. I replayed it with a Hospitaler Paladin MC and the mostly good party of Valerie, Linzi, Tristian, Ekundayo, and Jubilost. It was far better. The game is all about attrition, and it's grueling for a full arcane caster. The experience is different enough to where I would even recommend re-rolling your MC to a martial if you've gone full caster. Slayers are also very well suited as MCs for this game, especially later when advanced rogue talents come in and you can just churn through the worst foes.

I've played Kingmaker a number of times with different characters, that's not really my issue. I'm just not drawn in to the game world and characters so much that I would willingly spend 100+ hours on a playthrough. However, I'm going to play through to the end of Act 5 at least.

I'm currently playing a chaotic good sorcerer with the green dragon blood line. I turned Valerie into a Dragon Disciple who can cast buffs, the barbarian lady also provides melee, the grumpy dwarf does heals, Linzi is there for bard buffs and spells, and the last person gets rotated a bit. Ekundayo is a little overpowered in my opinion, but hey whatever.

The combat isn't causing me to reload a lot or become frustrated, I generally approve of the tbs combat, items, spells, etc. However, if I just want combat I'll go play Battle Brothers.

The black dude has higher stats than anyone else, IIRC, because, you know, black.

 

[mediocrepoet]

The black dude has higher stats than anyone else, IIRC, because, you know, black.

He has an oversized long bow that's sure to please the ladies.

 

[Yosharian]

FINE, I WILL REINSTALL. My old save games will still be there. After I complete acts 3-4-5, as suggested, I will return and shit on the game again because I'm pretty confident that there is no "good deal of interesting, epic stuff."

Oh trust me, there is, if you've ever been tickled by the idea of "mad gods," or thought about how insane and bored you'd get if you were actually immortal and as powerful as a god, you'll love what's coming. It's quite horrific and terrifying (much more terrifying than the demonic stuff in PFWOTR imho).

Yeah it's a real shame that the game gets bogged down with copy paste trash mobs and boring level design because the story beats in the last chapter are quite cool IMO

 

[Agesilaus]

Just freed some goblin retard and let him join my party. Goes by "Nok Nok"; almost 30 dex. is this a joke?

 

[Cael]

Just freed some goblin retard and let him join my party. Goes by "Nok Nok"; almost 30 dex. is this a joke?

No. It gets +4 racial and is Avellone's pet.

 

[Desiderius]

Just freed some goblin retard and let him join my party. Goes by "Nok Nok"; almost 30 dex. is this a joke?

The best

 

[gurugeorge]

Agesilaus What class is your MC? Also, are you using a "good" party? My first run was as an arcane trickster with a nuanced morals and less conventional classes. It was an absolute slog. I replayed it with a Hospitaler Paladin MC and the mostly good party of Valerie, Linzi, Tristian, Ekundayo, and Jubilost. It was far better. The game is all about attrition, and it's grueling for a full arcane caster. The experience is different enough to where I would even recommend re-rolling your MC to a martial if you've gone full caster. Slayers are also very well suited as MCs for this game, especially later when advanced rogue talents come in and you can just churn through the worst foes.

I've played Kingmaker a number of times with different characters, that's not really my issue. I'm just not drawn in to the game world and characters so much that I would willingly spend 100+ hours on a playthrough. However, I'm going to play through to the end of Act 5 at least.

I'm currently playing a chaotic good sorcerer with the green dragon blood line. I turned Valerie into a Dragon Disciple who can cast buffs, the barbarian lady also provides melee, the grumpy dwarf does heals, Linzi is there for bard buffs and spells, and the last person gets rotated a bit. Ekundayo is a little overpowered in my opinion, but hey whatever.

The combat isn't causing me to reload a lot or become frustrated, I generally approve of the tbs combat, items, spells, etc. However, if I just want combat I'll go play Battle Brothers.

The black dude has higher stats than anyone else, IIRC, because, you know, black.

Not just Black, but a Noble Savage Black!

 

[Faarbaute]

The negro ranger is quite inoffensive, as far as diversity propaganda goes. He is for all intents and purposes, a white dude with blackface.

 

[Desiderius]

The negro ranger is quite inoffensive, as far as diversity propaganda goes. He is for all intents and purposes, a white dude with blackface.

They all are.

The merely real is déclassée so the ironytards need the degree of separation provided by The Queering to handle it. Blackface/Chickface/Gheyface/Troonface.

 

[Butter]

I've reached the point where I only accept White Human Males in the party. I remember killing half the Kingmaker companions on meeting them because they were some degree of mongrel.

 

[Desiderius]

I've reached the point where I only accept White Human Males in the party. I remember killing half the Kingmaker companions on meeting them because they were some degree of mongrel.

No need for that. The product placement is annoying (out of place in the setting) but there are blax like Ekun and Seelah in Murica and they make good neighbors since their relatives keep property values affordable. Just need strong self-confident whites (ancestral ties to place) to keep them (the relatives) under control. I don't mind adventuring with them, the games are just (much) worse than they could be missing the primary archetype of the genre.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I've reached the point where I only accept White Human Males in the party. I remember killing half the Kingmaker companions on meeting them because they were some degree of mongrel.

So you did not take the hero with the highest DPS in the game, who is also one of the best written characters?

Racism is, indeed, very bad for brains.

 

[Desiderius]

I've reached the point where I only accept White Human Males in the party. I remember killing half the Kingmaker companions on meeting them because they were some degree of mongrel.

So you did not take the hero with the highest DPS in the game, who is also one of the best written characters?

Racism is, indeed, very bad for brains.

Second only to anti-racism evidently.

 

[Cael]

I've reached the point where I only accept White Human Males in the party. I remember killing half the Kingmaker companions on meeting them because they were some degree of mongrel.

So you did not take the hero with the highest DPS in the game, who is also one of the best written characters?

Racism is, indeed, very bad for brains.

Nok-Nok is fun, but I won't take him around as he is too fragile.

 

[whydoibother]

I don't like the game enough to invest that sort of time on one playthrough. There is no greatness or mystery or anything else of note in the game. It's a fun little romp through a gay fantasy world that should not last more than 30 hours per playthrough.

The replay value could come from being good vs being evil (chaotic and lawful don't seem to matter as much) in your kingdom decisions and companion selection. A good paladin/cleric, and later a bad scion/rogue or whatever. Though the game is obviously set up for a druid or ranger.
What should have been the reason to replay is siding with the guy who sent you on the adventure, or his political adversaries, or with the other newly minted barrons to form a third, independent realm. This could've produced a unique final act for each possible resolution of the kingdom situation. Of course thats not how the actual Kingmaker module is in pen&paper, but it should've been done for the video game. Seems obvious, not just in hindsight.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I've reached the point where I only accept White Human Males in the party. I remember killing half the Kingmaker companions on meeting them because they were some degree of mongrel.

So you did not take the hero with the highest DPS in the game, who is also one of the best written characters?

Racism is, indeed, very bad for brains.

Nok-Nok is fun, but I won't take him around as he is too fragile.

Well, surely you need to micro him to avoid enemies' attacks. And you have tools for that: Greater Invisibility and Acrobatics with high Mobility. That's how Nok-Nok worked for me in Kingmaker, and that's how Woljif works for me in Wrath. Granted, Woljif has self-buffs, so he does not require as much attention from other party members as Nok-Nok.

Also, dead enemies do not attack.

I don't like the game enough to invest that sort of time on one playthrough. There is no greatness or mystery or anything else of note in the game. It's a fun little romp through a gay fantasy world that should not last more than 30 hours per playthrough.

The replay value could come from being good vs being evil (chaotic and lawful don't seem to matter as much) in your kingdom decisions and companion selection. A good paladin/cleric, and later a bad scion/rogue or whatever.
What should have been the reason to replay is siding with the guy who sent you on the adventure, or his political adversaries, or with the other newly minted barrons to form a third, independent realm. This could've produced a unique final act for each possible resolution of the kingdom situation. Of course thats not how the actual Kingmaker module is in pen&paper, but it should've been done for the video game. Seems obvious, not just in hindsight.

It seems we were playing different games.

Lawful barony gets a unique building to add +2 to solving problems in the region. Lawful Evil barony gets another unique building that adds +1. So bringing law and order by iron fist is rewarded not only from RP perspective, but on the strategic layer.

You are helping another baron in Act IV. The person who receives the title in the same room as you.

You can help either the Aldori or their sworn enemies when the war between them breaks out. This is one of the main quests of Act V.

And your new kingdom remains independent at least in some ending slides, especially in the secret ending.

I mean - yes, they could have done all of this better. Probably. However, what you wrote means you did not play the game.