Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

[Desiderius]

(b) it makes no sense - you’re blocking shit with your Wing, not your shield.

???
its just name of style - you dont block shit with your wing.
what did they prescribe you with?

Of course you do, you’re a monk. You do everything with your bare hands and arms. What did you think it referred to? If it actually has to block something you lose it for a round, just as one would expect.

No need to be pointlessly disagreeable, let alone insulting. Makes you look especially bad when you’ve got the weaker case. The name of the style is... Crane Style, not Crane Wing.

 

[Efe]

tiger style has tiger claws. you dont actually grow claws nor are they a prerequisite.
crane style has crane wing. you dont grow wings nor are they a prerequisite.
snake style has snake fang. you dont grow fangs nor are they a prerequisite.
....
so, what are you on about? what makes you think you block shit with your wing?

 

[Desiderius]

tiger style has tiger claws. you dont actually grow claws nor are they a prerequisite.
crane style has crane wing. you dont grow wings nor are they a prerequisite.
snake style has snake fang. you dont grow fangs nor are they a prerequisite.
....
so, what are you on about? what makes you think you block shit with your wing?

Wing is slang for arm. Figuratively speaking, you’re blocking with your “wing” since you’re using crane style.

 

[Efe]

whats this?

(b) it makes no sense - you’re blocking shit with your Wing, not your shield.

first you blatantly lie about shooting into melee now this above?
ok, nok nok does more dps than octavia. are you happy? can you stop shitposting now?

 

[Yosharian]

Guys, please stop. You're giving me a headache.

 

[Desiderius]

whats this?

(b) it makes no sense - you’re blocking shit with your Wing, not your shield.

first you blatantly lie about shooting into melee now this above?
ok, nok nok does more dps than octavia. are you happy? can you stop shitposting now?

Blatantly lie about a basic skill that archers get by third level at the latest? Dude, stop digging.

The op was trying to build the best enchantment/illusion sorc he could. AT’s just a bad fit there. Marginally powerwise (at least until surprise spells comes online - most of the game), certainly fun/interest wise. AT got a lot of ink when the game came out because of the ray bug. Still solid, but not every caster needs to be AT.

As for shit-posting I was watching my two-year-olds today so had a lot of free time and P:K is a great game and fun to talk about. Nothing shitty about it.

 

[Efe]

you said its harder for enemy to dodge arrows while engaged in melee.
rules prove you wrong, not me. so go bark at paizo.

also you seriously pick precise shot with octavia at lv3?

 

[Desiderius]

you said its harder for enemy to dodge arrows while engaged in melee.
rules prove you wrong, not me. so go bark at paizo.

also you seriously pick precise shot with octavia at lv3?

No, I said it’s easier to hit when the target is flanked. The melee penalty is regardless of flanking. Especially when all three attackers got together ahead of time to plan things out (Freebooter’s Bond).

I’m actually probably wrong about my general point because not only do ranged toons not get outflank, they don’t even get regular flanking bonus.

Whether they should is another question. The way it is (with Bond and sneak working but nothing else) is actually at about the right balance gameplay-wise.

I pick Precise for Octavia at three because I get the Rogue up front and catch up on casting later, so I never have to take the weak Accomplished Sneak Attacker at all. The traditional route leaves her pretty gimpy for awhile without Precise, but raw power wise it’s probably better to go balls out for AT and caster levels. Just doesn’t fit my playstyle or plan for the game.

I like maxing her BAB and attacks while using Jub instead until Tomb so he can buff Okbo. Okbo is awkward in Tombs so Octavia comes back to take over archery duties from Ekun and Trickery from Jub while being a decent caster. Then from there she rapidly advances on AT levels.

 

[Haplo]

The op was trying to build the best enchantment/illusion sorc he could. AT’s just a bad fit there. Marginally powerwise (at least until surprise spells comes online - most of the game)

I pick Precise for Octavia at three because I get the Rogue up front and catch up on casting later, so I never have to take the weak Accomplished Sneak Attacker at all. The traditional route leaves her pretty gimpy for awhile without Precise, but raw power wise it’s probably better to go balls out for AT and caster levels. Just doesn’t fit my playstyle or plan for the game.

I think I might have found your problem. You write that Surprise Spells is a late-game ability, while I consider it a mid-game ability. "Typical" Octavia build would get it at level 14, which is late act 3 / early act 4.
Instead you stall her caster progression for some weird reason (to make her a better archer?).

 

[Desiderius]

The op was trying to build the best enchantment/illusion sorc he could. AT’s just a bad fit there. Marginally powerwise (at least until surprise spells comes online - most of the game)

I pick Precise for Octavia at three because I get the Rogue up front and catch up on casting later, so I never have to take the weak Accomplished Sneak Attacker at all. The traditional route leaves her pretty gimpy for awhile without Precise, but raw power wise it’s probably better to go balls out for AT and caster levels. Just doesn’t fit my playstyle or plan for the game.

I think I might have found your problem. You write that Surprise Spells is a late-game ability, while I consider it a mid-game ability. "Typical" Octavia build would get it at level 14, which is late act 3 / early act 4.
Instead you stall her caster progression for some weird reason (to make her a better archer?).

It’s not weird, nor a problem. Your path makes her too weak, then too strong (and that is debatable, as a well built nuker without AT can solo the game, so it’s the pure Wizard itself more than the AT part). In both cases you rest more than I like to.

I like her regular (unlimited) attacks doing (a lot) more damage, and being more versatile. She even has much higher touch to hit when that’s a thing she needs to do and evasion/uncanny dodge/debilitating attack (like a mini-shatter) and fast stealth.

A decent compromise is cutting the EA splash. 14th level is somewhere around end of Armag, so that’s late enough for me. I want unchained rogue goodness for Vordokai.

 

[Haplo]

My Octavia never felt weak or not useful enough. She was the aoe CC Queen from the get go, able to zap bosses with rays too.

I guess wizards are good as a class in general, yes. But I won't say no to easy 30% more average damage.

Regular bow attacks doing a lot more damage then AT ray cantrips is debatable. I think there is an appreciable difference only on low-AC enemies. Extremely high cost to achieve that.

 

[Desiderius]

My Octavia never felt weak or not useful enough. She was the aoe CC Queen from the get go, able to zap bosses with rays too.

I guess wizards are good as a class in general, yes. But I won't say no to easy 30% more average damage.

Regular bow attacks doing a lot more damage then AT ray cantrips is debatable. I think there is an appreciable difference only on low-AC enemies. Extremely high cost to achieve that.

You get four (plus manyshot!) instead of one, all of which trigger sneak dice. You’d have to be hitting at less than 30% for it to even be comparable.

The traditional rush to AT leaves 3 rogue BAB (and one wizard if you’re hardcore) lying around. Once you figure in the broken bows that start flying around mid game and the AC malus from debilitating (- 4), it’s really less of a thing than you’re imagining. I’m also usually getting maxed shaken song, courage, good hope, freebooters, and big DEX bonuses. Sometimes Archon’s Aura and various other maluses.

Octavia gets to figure in help from the team.

The other bottom line is whether you want the full high level wizard experience as fast as possible. I don’t, mostly because then the game’s all about the wiz, and that has little to do with AT now that the ray bug is fixed.

 

[Desiderius]

My Octavia never felt weak or not useful enough. She was the aoe CC Queen from the get go, able to zap bosses with rays too.

I guess wizards are good as a class in general, yes. But I won't say no to easy 30% more average damage.

Regular bow attacks doing a lot more damage then AT ray cantrips is debatable. I think there is an appreciable difference only on low-AC enemies. Extremely high cost to achieve that.

I had to retrain her anyway to get rid of the outflank and decided to try to drop the EA splash. Playing a good bit smoother if not quite as hard-hitting. Was originally trying to qualify for AT through EA but that’s too slow on spell progression. R4/W1/AT10 is a nice sweet spot. Hits 6 BAB at lvl 11, which is right on time.

 

[Haplo]

You get four (plus manyshot!) instead of one, all of which trigger sneak dice. You’d have to be hitting at less than 30% for it to even be comparable.

The traditional rush to AT leaves 3 rogue BAB (and one wizard if you’re hardcore) lying around. Once you figure in the broken bows that start flying around mid game and the AC malus from debilitating (- 4), it’s really less of a thing than you’re imagining. I’m also usually getting maxed shaken song, courage, good hope, freebooters, and big DEX bonuses. Sometimes Archon’s Aura and various other maluses.

Rapid Shot is -2 AB. The "broken" bow is Oversized, so another -2 AB. Previously you were using EA Spell Combat at another -2 AB - for a grand total of -6 AB!

Manyshot doesn't add all that much damage for her. And when she finally gets her 2nd attack at 11 BAB... normally you'd start casting Chain Lightnings and Sciroccos a level later, which really make the bow look silly inconsequential.

 

[Efe]

honestly i could have octavia autocasting ray of acid whole game and still outdps that build.

 

[Daidre]

Manyshot's extra attack does not allow sneak dices so it is bow raw damage + STR which is abysmal on AT.

I tried Eldritch Scoundrel for the same thing (with Eldritch Archer splash for spell combat for rays) and even this one with medium rogue bab had problems with hitting broad side of a dragon with tons of buffs.

Anyway R4/W1/AT10 is impossible build - you need 3 caster levels and access to lvl 2 spells as AT prerequisite - which makes it R4/W3/AT10. Delaying Surprise Spells to lvl 17 is alike to shooting yourself into knee and ruining perfectly capable char.

 

[Delterius]

TBH AT+Wiz 19 / Vivi 1 sounds like a nice wizard build with the bare minimum training to not be useless when the situation calls for just auto attacking (early game stuff, I guess), why deviate from that?

 

[Desiderius]

Duh about impossible build. Meant R4/W3/AT10.

You get your Surprise Spells in time for Hate House where you really need it, you get three sneak dice triggering attacks (two from Rapid Shot at lvl 5, one from 6 BAB by lvl 11) instead of one from cantrip. Manyshot is just gravy, but will consistently trigger opening from stealth.

Seriously, try it out with a competent group. Everyone is still thinking her BAB sucks but I’m getting three extra right off the bat, plus four more from Debilitating after first shot lands. She’s way better in the Tombs.

 

[Desiderius]

TBH AT+Wiz 19 / Vivi 1 sounds like a nice wizard build with the bare minimum training to not be useless when the situation calls for just auto attacking (early game stuff, I guess), why deviate from that?

Talking about Octavia, she starts with R1, W1.

 

[Desiderius]

Manyshot's extra attack does not allow sneak dices so it is bow raw damage + STR which is abysmal on AT.

I tried Eldritch Scoundrel for the same thing (with Eldritch Archer splash for spell combat for rays) and even this one with medium rogue bab had problems with hitting broad side of a dragon with tons of buffs.

Anyway R4/W1/AT10 is impossible build - you need 3 caster levels and access to lvl 2 spells as AT prerequisite - which makes it R4/W3/AT10. Delaying Surprise Spells to lvl 17 is alike to shooting yourself into knee and ruining perfectly capable char.

This build is way better from lvl 3 to lvl 13, which is most of the game. Surprise spells plus Sirocco mise well be solo anyway. But you can even do that at lvl 17 if that’s your thing.

 

[Desiderius]

Rapid Shot is -2 AB. The "broken" bow is Oversized, so another -2 AB. Previously you were using EA Spell Combat at another -2 AB - for a grand total of -6 AB!

Manyshot doesn't add all that much damage for her. And when she finally gets her 2nd attack at 11 BAB... normally you'd start casting Chain Lightnings and Sciroccos a level later, which really make the bow look silly inconsequential.

She can use shady, prowling, or mirror for another +3 at least if necessary, or she can always just use touch too if she has to (Linnorm). My ranged main isn’t that far yet so we’ll see - planning for her to take devourer.

 

[Delterius]

TBH AT+Wiz 19 / Vivi 1 sounds like a nice wizard build with the bare minimum training to not be useless when the situation calls for just auto attacking (early game stuff, I guess), why deviate from that?

Talking about Octavia, she starts with R1, W1.

Thats true but not much worse. That means she's a great skillmonkey too.

 

[Daidre]

That is a main issue for me - you waste all caster levels and feats to shoot but still cast spells when it matters the most.

Beside, comparing archer that would not get second attack until the lvl 11 to competent wizard with Haste and Stinking cloud (character lvl 6 vs lvl 9) is ridiculous. Low levels is exactly where difference is most prominent.
Where classic AT is CC god until he is DPS god with Glitterdust and Stinky, you get shitty archer that could not even provide crucial buffs without 3 levels delay.

 

[Delterius]

Where classic AT is CC god until he is DPS god with Glitterdust and Stinky, you get shitty archer that could not even provide crucial buffs without 3 levels delay.

Three? Don't you mean one if you go Wizard>1x Vivi/Rogue>AT>Wizard?

That way you can use ranged touch spells for damage and spellschool focus Conjuration for most other wizardly pursuits -- summoning and, especially, CC. That way you get a mostly Full caster who can serve as the rogue skillmonkey and a shitty archer at the same time.

 

[Daidre]

Where classic AT is CC god until he is DPS god with Glitterdust and Stinky, you get shitty archer that could not even provide crucial buffs without 3 levels delay.

Three? Don't you mean one if you go Wizard>1x Vivi/Rogue>AT>Wizard?

That way you can use ranged touch spells for damage and spellschool focus Conjuration for most other wizardly pursuits -- summoning and, especially, CC. That way you get a mostly Full caster who can serve as the rogue skillmonkey and a shitty archer at the same time.

I was comparing Wizard>1x Vivi/Rogue>AT>Wizard to R4/W3/AT10. First one loses 1 caster level to pure Wiz but second loses 3 what is deal-breaker on lower levels. But even the Sorc > AT version that delayed for 2 levels in getting new spells is not all attractive for me in main campaign where leveling is pretty slow.